2012 NBA Draft - Part V

[nate33]

If anything, I think Wall is more likely to bust with a non-floor-spacer like MKG beside him. Wall needs to develop some confidence in his teammates or he'll never become the true PG he needs to be. Adding a knockdown shooter and a floor spacer like Beal will help Wall more than adding a vocal leader with a broken shot like MKG will.

[DCZards]

Beal's effort on D doesn't match MKGs. There's a large gap b/w the two defensively. Athletically they may be similar, but MKG has 5 1/2 inches in the standing reach overr Beal (and apparently those numbers will be adjusted for everyone at the combine). Also I don't recall reading Beal starting workout clubs

Another difference b/w the two is that while Beal had to adjust and initially struggled and pressed while figuring out where he fit in among his teammates, MKG seized the leadership role the moment he walked on campus.

C'mon, Dat. I don't disagree that MKG's personality will make him an important piece for just about any team, but you're not going to convince anyone, at least not me, that we should draft him because he started a workout club at KU...or because he was an immediate leader on a Kentucky team made up of largely frosh and soph while another 18 year old didn't do the same thing on a Florida team led by a jr. and sr. backcourt tandem.

I think both MKG and Beal lead by example with the effort they play with between the lines, and Beal's impressive rebounding and shotblocking numbers for a 6'4 guard reflect just how hard he plays.

[Dark Faze]

MKG has consistently lived up to the hype. He was pegged as a Scottie Pippen type of player with a Kobe'esque mentality and work ethic, and there's been absolutely no reason to doubt that any of that has been true thus far. Guys improve their jumppshot to servicable levels all the time in the league.

It's really a question of what the LEAST likely risk is. It just seems unlikely that MKG is going to be worse than what he's been billed as at the next level.

Beal? I mean what has been showed for guys here to be so confident that he's a 1st option on offense? Because you can get shooters in free agency. If he's not a first option then I don't see why you want that over what MKG brings.

[nate33]

I think to be a winning team, the following must be true:

The PG (or primary ball handler) must be able to penetrate
The wings must be able to shoot from three point range.
The bigs must be able to play help D.
At least one big must hit midrange jumpers.

This is the recipe for success for all good teams. Everything else is negotiable.

Preferably, one of your wings is a very good defender but it's not paramount as long as the bigs defend (see Boston). Preferably, one of your bigs can score with his back to basket, but it's not absolutely necessary (see OKC).

I think we've got the PG in place. We have the bigs in place assuming a little improvement out of Vesely. We can add one of the wings with Beal. Then we're just short a 3&D wing.

I worry that MKG doesn't fill any of these roles. When you add him, you need to find extraordinary players at other positions to make up for his deficiency in shooting. You need a great penetrating PG who can also shoot. Or you need a great defensive big who also has 3-point range. It's possible to find those guys, but they're very rare.

[Upper Decker]

Hunger, heart, intangibles, 'wants it more'...these are such fluff phrases when arguing the merits of draft prospects over another. Especially when many assert these attributes are the reasons MKG should be selected over more skilled players. How are we certain that Beal isn’t just as hungry, or have just as much heart and intangibles to go along with his superior skills?

A lot here have made the stance that MKG will develop a strong jumper because his hunger and work ethic. Does this mean Beal has a stronger work ethic because he already has refined his jumper? Using this logic Beal ‘wants it more’ than MKG because he already has it and MKG doesn’t.

[Upper Decker]

Another difference b/w the two is that while Beal had to adjust and initially struggled and pressed while figuring out where he fit in among his teammates, MKG seized the leadership role the moment he walked on campus. I don't remember Beal starting any workout clubs with his teammates. There's clearly a difference b/w the two in terms of personality. MKG has more alpha in him. I like the dynamic MKG will bring, he's going to push the players around him. I don't think Beal has these same attributes.

And I'm not trying to say I don't like Beal because I do. But there's a clear preference for me b/w Beal & MKG. I think Beal will be a solid NBA player and fits nicely alongside Wall. We could a lot worse in the draft if he's the pick.

Guys don't realize that Wall has a good chance of busting without a guy like MKG beside him. MKG isn't just a piece on its own, he's a piece that can enhance the play of everyone around him. If he can inspire Wall to reach his potential then it will be worlds better than drafting a Harden or arguably even Anthony Davis.

Why can't Beal inspire Wall just as much?

[Dat2U]

Hunger, heart, intangibles, 'wants it more'...these are such fluff phrases when arguing the merits of draft prospects over another. Especially when many assert these attributes are the reasons MKG should be selected over more skilled players. How are we certain that Beal isn’t just as hungry, or have just as much heart and intangibles to go along with his superior skills?

A lot here have made the stance that MKG will develop a strong jumper because his hunger and work ethic. Does this mean Beal has a stronger work ethic because he already has refined his jumper? Using this logic Beal ‘wants it more’ than MKG because he already has it and MKG doesn’t.

Fluff? Maybe these traits aren't easily measurable but they are definitely not fluff. Those same traits will determine which guys fail and which guys succeed in the league. Which will be role players and which will be stars.

Is it based on circumstantial evidence? Sure, but it has to be considered. I'm sure the front office does a thorough background check on all the prospects to get a feel for what type of individual and personality their getting. Obviously they have access to info we don't have so we can only surmise what might really be the case.

[Mizerooskie]

MKG has consistently lived up to the hype. He was pegged as a Scottie Pippen type of player with a Kobe'esque mentality and work ethic, and there's been absolutely no reason to doubt that any of that has been true thus far. Guys improve their jumppshot to servicable levels all the time in the league.

It's really a question of what the LEAST likely risk is. It just seems unlikely that MKG is going to be worse than what he's been billed as at the next level.

Beal? I mean what has been showed for guys here to be so confident that he's a 1st option on offense? Because you can get shooters in free agency. If he's not a first option then I don't see why you want that over what MKG brings.

Pippen was a much better passer than MKG.

Pippen's career A/36 rate was 5.4.
MKG's A/36 rate at UK was 2.2.

Obviously there's a sample size issue there, along with no direct comparison between college stats (couldn't find Pip's anywhere), but MKG hasn't shown much in the passing department.

Pippen without the ability to distribute the ball is essentially a defensive specialist. And lest we forget that one of the major reasons Pippen was such an effective player is that he played along side an Alpha scorer.

The MKG vs. Beal debate comes down to fit. It's pretty universally agreed that they're similarly-tiered prospects. If you agree with that fact, it comes down to which one is a better fit. IMO, and I'd say it's the opinion of many, the team needs shooting, skill, and offensive IQ much more than it needs leadership, defense, and energy.

Edit: I'll also add that it seems more likely that Beal gets to MKG's level of leadership, defense, and energy than MKG gets to Beal's level of shooting, skill, and offensive IQ.

[DCZards]

Yup, hunger and heart matter but I'm not convinced that MKG has any more hunger or heart or leadership skills than TRob or Beal. I'm beginning to worry that the reason people are making so much of MKG's hunger, heart and motor is because they can't brag about his shooting (like Beal) or his rebounding (like TRob).

[tontoz]

There is one big difference between Beal and MKG defensively. One had Anthony Davis behind him, the other didn't.

[Mizerooskie]

And obviously, since this is becoming the top debate in this thread, both will be available and EG will take Barnes.

[Dark Faze]

You can't learn the sort of mentality that MKG has in regards to basketball. He's a rare breed.

He won a state championship in HS as a top ranked prospect, when Irving left he lost only one game, won a gold medal in U-17 Fiba, and won a national championship as the second best player and the undisputed leader of Kentucky.

His offensive rating is a tick under Beals as a freshmen. He'll be your lock down defender. He is a GREAT finisher at the rim. Great in transition. High IQ offensively. Gets rid of the ball, moves great off the ball. He and Wall will bring a hellish intensity every night.

I have nothing against Beal but he doesn't bring those things. He'll work hard, he'll bring leadership, but he's not in MKG's class there. Look at the stats: Was inferior to EG, Wade and Harden in terms of scoring and FG%. He was a good rebounder, that can't be debated.

There's a guy who's literally going to be a free agent who, aside from health, is Beals CEILING in Eric Gordon. Offer him the max and pair him with MKG.

I can guarantee we'll regret passing on him.

[Brenice]

People describe MKG as if he is an overachieving, high motor/hustle player. He can't shoot. What skill does he have?

[Upper Decker]

When you weed out the Andre Drummonds (who demonstratively have poor work ethics) of the NBA draft and compare all the top prospects you'll see they ALL have great work ethics and great intangibles. Separating one from the other is virtually impossible, as such, it's fluff to say MKG is a better prospect than Beal because his work ethic BECAUSE we don't know for certain his lauded intangibles are superior than Beal’s. From what I see, Beal is just as intense as MKG on the floor, Beal lead his team in rebounding (a hustle stat), and Beal has validated his work ethic by having a refined shot. If MKG’s work ethic is as great as everyone says it is why isn’t his body fat % lower than Beals? Why isn’t his shooting form not more refined? I’m not saying he doesn’t have good intangibles, but it’s a weak argument to say he’s clearly a better prospect because he tries harder—they all try hard, they have to to get to this point.

[Upper Decker]

People describe MKG as if he is an overachieving, high motor/hustle player. He can't shoot. What skill does he have?

Organizing breakfast clubs?

[tontoz]

I have nothing against Beal but he doesn't bring those things. He'll work hard, he'll bring leadership, but he's not in MKG's class there. Look at the stats: Was inferior to EG, Wade and Harden in terms of scoring and FG%. He was a good rebounder, that can't be debated.

Why dont you post some statistical comparisons between MKG and current NBA players?

[Ruzious]

When you weed out the Andre Drummonds (who demonstratively have poor work ethics) of the NBA draft and compare all the top prospects you'll see they ALL have great work ethics and great intangibles. Separating one from the other is virtually impossible, as such, it's fluff to say MKG is a better prospect than Beal because his work ethic BECAUSE we don't know for certain his lauded intangibles are superior than Beal’s. From what I see, Beal is just as intense as MKG on the floor, Beal lead his team in rebounding (a hustle stat), and Beal has validated his work ethic by having a refined shot. If MKG’s work ethic is as great as everyone says it is why isn’t his body fat % lower than Beals? Why isn’t his shooting form not more refined? I’m not saying he doesn’t have good intangibles, but it’s a weak argument to say he’s clearly a better prospect because he tries harder—they all try hard, they have to to get to this point.

In general, I agree with you, but it's ironic that you use body fat % as the criteria for whether a player tries hard after you just called out Drummond for having demonstrably poor work ethic - and Drummond scored a very low body fat % for a guy his size.

[tontoz]

Comparing MKG to Marvin Willaims, big gaps in bold.

Standing reach

Marvin Williams 9'
MKG 8'8.5

vertical

Marvin 35.5"
MKG 35.5

bench reps

Marvin 12
MKG 6

lane agility

Marvin 11.11
MKG 11.77

sprint

Marvin 3.17
MKG 3.18


Their points, rebounds etc were pretty comparable (even though Marvin played less minutes) with Marvin having a TS% advantage of 5.7%.

[7-Day Dray]

When you weed out the Andre Drummonds (who demonstratively have poor work ethics) of the NBA draft and compare all the top prospects you'll see they ALL have great work ethics and great intangibles. Separating one from the other is virtually impossible, as such, it's fluff to say MKG is a better prospect than Beal because his work ethic BECAUSE we don't know for certain his lauded intangibles are superior than Beal’s. From what I see, Beal is just as intense as MKG on the floor, Beal lead his team in rebounding (a hustle stat), and Beal has validated his work ethic by having a refined shot. If MKG’s work ethic is as great as everyone says it is why isn’t his body fat % lower than Beals? Why isn’t his shooting form not more refined? I’m not saying he doesn’t have good intangibles, but it’s a weak argument to say he’s clearly a better prospect because he tries harder—they all try hard, they have to to get to this point.

In general, I agree with you, but it's ironic that you use body fat % as the criteria for whether a player tries hard after you just called out Drummond for having demonstrably poor work ethic - and Drummond scored a very low body fat % for a guy his size.

Not sure what leads people to believe Drummond has a poor work ethic. Can't blame people for questioing his demeanor on he court, but he's 18 y/o. Most of the big men prospects in draft were raw as a Fr.

[Mizerooskie]

You can't learn the sort of mentality that MKG has in regards to basketball. He's a rare breed.

He won a state championship in HS as a top ranked prospect, when Irving left he lost only one game, won a gold medal in U-17 Fiba, and won a national championship as the second best player and the undisputed leader of Kentucky.

His offensive rating is a tick under Beals as a freshmen. He'll be your lock down defender. He is a GREAT finisher at the rim. Great in transition. High IQ offensively. Gets rid of the ball, moves great off the ball. He and Wall will bring a hellish intensity every night.

I have nothing against Beal but he doesn't bring those things. He'll work hard, he'll bring leadership, but he's not in MKG's class there. Look at the stats: Was inferior to EG, Wade and Harden in terms of scoring and FG%. He was a good rebounder, that can't be debated.

There's a guy who's literally going to be a free agent who, aside from health, is Beals CEILING in Eric Gordon. Offer him the max and pair him with MKG.

I can guarantee we'll regret passing on him.

His offensive rating may be a tick under Beal's, but MKG's offensive skill is way more than a tick under Beal's. He may be your lockdown defender, he may not be. With his lackluster athletic measurements at the combine and no Anthony Davis behind him, it's far from guaranteed he'll be an elite-level defender at the NBA level.

And his high offensive IQ translated into more turnovers than assists.

You're quite clearly painting a very biased picture of both MKG and Beal here. For all the praise you're giving of MKG's defensive game, why no mention of Beal having more steals/40 and the same blocks/40, despite being shorter?

MKG's floor isn't Gerald Wallace. It's what he is right now--an energy player wiht a broken shot that provides some intangibles.