1st rd pick general discussion #2 overall (Poll Added)

Post #1341 » by **Walt Cronkite** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:25 am

Stun704 wrote:Barnes is capable of being an elite top 5 SF. The problem is you think hes a finished product, however he can only get better from this point on. Barnes has all the tools to become an elite player in the NBA, and I feel that Jordan will push him to that level

This is obviously untrue, but it does make some sense as to how you evaluate player's upsides.

Stun704 · Post #1342 » by **Stun704** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:28 am

Walt Cronkite wrote:
Stun704 wrote:Barnes is capable of being an elite top 5 SF. The problem is you think hes a finished product, however he can only get better from this point on. Barnes has all the tools to become an elite player in the NBA, and I feel that Jordan will push him to that level

This is obviously untrue, but it does make some sense as to how you evaluate player's upsides.

Barnes combine measurements shows that he has god given ability that he has yet to take advantage of consistently on the basketball court. Do you really think Barnes won't work hard to improve his game? It is almost impossible for a player with a good work ethic to plateau as a rookie :lol:

Post #1343 » by **Walt Cronkite** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:31 am

It happens literally every draft. Marvin Williams comes to mind.

Stun704 · Post #1344 » by **Stun704** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:32 am

Walt Cronkite wrote:It happens literally every draft. Marvin Williams comes to mind.

Marvin Williams had an injury, and he doesn't have the same work ethic as Barnes. but I see your point. its just very rare for a player with a good head on his shoulders to plateau before his prime

Badd_Intentions · Post #1345 » by **Badd_Intentions** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:33 am

Stun704 wrote:
Badd_Intentions wrote:No way is Barnes a franchise player. If i'm wrong about that I will gladly eat crow, but he isn't a franchise guy. He's a nice player to have, but you can't just dump the ball into him for buckets. NBA Defenders are going to make him put it on the deck, he hasn't show he can consistently get good 1 on 1 looks vs college players let alone pros.

Barnes is capable of being an elite top 5 SF. The problem is you think hes a finished product, however he can only get better from this point on. Barnes has all the tools to become an elite player in the NBA, and I feel that Jordan will push him to that level

Not saying he is a finished product by any means, but if you look at the franchise guys in the game now, they all started as having a natural ability to beat their man 1 on 1. Guys like LeBron, Wade, Melo, KD, etc...all had the natural ability as young players to beat their man 1 on 1. Barnes doesn't have that, He is a great shooter, but you can't just clear a side of the floor and have him get a good shot. Sure he can work his ball handling, but his first step isn't that great and I think that knack of getting to the rim is something that can't really be taught. He just doesn't have the first step or the slick ball handling to get by defenders.

I'm sure his post up game will improve, and again his ball handling, but he doesn't seem like a natural guy at scoring(not shooting) the ball.

Stun704 · Post #1346 » by **Stun704** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:37 am

Badd_Intentions wrote:
Stun704 wrote:
Badd_Intentions wrote:No way is Barnes a franchise player. If i'm wrong about that I will gladly eat crow, but he isn't a franchise guy. He's a nice player to have, but you can't just dump the ball into him for buckets. NBA Defenders are going to make him put it on the deck, he hasn't show he can consistently get good 1 on 1 looks vs college players let alone pros.

Barnes is capable of being an elite top 5 SF. The problem is you think hes a finished product, however he can only get better from this point on. Barnes has all the tools to become an elite player in the NBA, and I feel that Jordan will push him to that level

Not saying he is a finished product by any means, but if you look at the franchise guys in the game now, they all started as having a natural ability to beat their man 1 on 1. Guys like LeBron, Wade, Melo, KD, etc...all had the natural ability as young players to beat their man 1 on 1. Barnes doesn't have that, He is a great shooter, but you can't just clear a side of the floor and have him get a good shot. Sure he can work his ball handling, but his first step isn't that great and I think that knack of getting to the rim is something that can't really be taught. He just doesn't have the first step or the slick ball handling to get by defenders.

I'm sure his post up game will improve, and again his ball handling, but he doesn't seem like a natural guy at scoring(not shooting) the ball.

Maybe he just wasn't taught that? his combine numbers show that he is very agile, who better for him to learn how to get in the lane, take contact, and use his god given abilities as a slasher then Michael Jeffery Jordan? Him learning how to score 1 on 1 should be the least we need to worry about if we draft him. being able to score 1 on 1 is just about fundamentals if you have the athletic talent. KD also struggled scoring 1 on 1 when coming into the league

Badd_Intentions · Post #1347 » by **Badd_Intentions** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:38 am

Sik Infant wrote:
Badd_Intentions wrote:No way is Barnes a franchise player. If i'm wrong about that I will gladly eat crow, but he isn't a franchise guy. He's a nice player to have, but you can't just dump the ball into him for buckets. NBA Defenders are going to make him put it on the deck, he hasn't show he can consistently get good 1 on 1 looks vs college players let alone pros.

How many "franchise" players are in the league though? "Superstar" is a term that is bandied around too often and when you count them truly there is only a handful of "true" superstars and especially fewer with many at the tale end of their careers.

Because you can dump the ball to Melo for a basket does that make him a franchise player? How about Al Jefferson,Amare,Love & Bynum?

People also use the whole Barnes isn't a first option argument and then ask(rhetorically) what about when barnes has to break his man down off the dribble, what about when Lebron (etc) is guarding him, his shot is overrated, he's not athletic(lol) etc.

Every man and his dog knows at this point in his career that Barnes cannot carry an NBA(or NCAA) offense but he is an excellent piece for any team picking 2-7 in this draft.

The things that restrict Barnes the most in terms of ceiling(handles/playmaking/defense) can be improved and he is an excellent second or third option, when he doesn't get the oppositions best defender and gets some space he will be an all-star imo.

It doesn't matter how many franchise players are in the league. I'm just saying Barnes won't be one of them. A franchise guy to me is a guy that a team is built around. I don't see a team being built around what he does. You can build around PG's that have an uncanny feel for the game, dominant post threats, and wings that get to the basket. Barnes is neither.

Stun704 · Post #1348 » by **Stun704** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:40 am

Badd_Intentions wrote:
Sik Infant wrote:
Badd_Intentions wrote:No way is Barnes a franchise player. If i'm wrong about that I will gladly eat crow, but he isn't a franchise guy. He's a nice player to have, but you can't just dump the ball into him for buckets. NBA Defenders are going to make him put it on the deck, he hasn't show he can consistently get good 1 on 1 looks vs college players let alone pros.

How many "franchise" players are in the league though? "Superstar" is a term that is bandied around too often and when you count them truly there is only a handful of "true" superstars and especially fewer with many at the tale end of their careers.

Because you can dump the ball to Melo for a basket does that make him a franchise player? How about Al Jefferson,Amare,Love & Bynum?

People also use the whole Barnes isn't a first option argument and then ask(rhetorically) what about when barnes has to break his man down off the dribble, what about when Lebron (etc) is guarding him, his shot is overrated, he's not athletic(lol) etc.

Every man and his dog knows at this point in his career that Barnes cannot carry an NBA(or NCAA) offense but he is an excellent piece for any team picking 2-7 in this draft.

The things that restrict Barnes the most in terms of ceiling(handles/playmaking/defense) can be improved and he is an excellent second or third option, when he doesn't get the oppositions best defender and gets some space he will be an all-star imo.

It doesn't matter how many franchise players are in the league. I'm just saying Barnes won't be one of them. A franchise guy to me is a guy that a team is built around. I don't see a team being built around what he does. You can build around PG's that have an uncanny feel for the game, dominant post threats, and wings that get to the basket. Barnes is neither.

How many other players in this draft do you KNOW will be a franchise player without a shadow of a doubt other then Anthony Davis?

HornetJail · Post #1349 » by **HornetJail** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:42 am

Only Davis, but I think out of the projected top 6, Barnes is probably the least likely to be a franchise player, or even an All-Star for that matter.

Stun704 · Post #1350 » by **Stun704** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:45 am

CHA_77_Bobcats wrote:Only Davis, but I think out of the projected top 6, Barnes is probably the least likely to be a franchise player, or even an All-Star for that matter.

Beal is easily the least talented prospect
Robinson, Lamb, MKG, Barnes, Drummond, PJ3 all have the talent to become perennial all-stars

I think Robinson & Barnes are the only ones that will put it all together

Badd_Intentions · Post #1351 » by **Badd_Intentions** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:49 am

Stun704 wrote:Maybe he just wasn't taught that? his combine numbers show that he is very agile, who better for him to learn how to get in the lane, take contact, and use his god given abilities as a slasher then Michael Jeffery Jordan? Him learning how to score 1 on 1 should be the least we need to worry about if we draft him. being able to score 1 on 1 is just about fundamentals if you have the athletic talent. KD also struggled scoring 1 on 1 when coming into the league

Combine numbers other than height are overrated. Barnes isn't an overly explosive basketball player. KD in college could get by his guy and score. He could also just plain shoot over him. He needed to work his ball handling like just about most SF's coming in but he couldn't be guarded 1 on 1 in college unless he get bullied around, but even still he could create just enough room to shoot over his defender.

Elden Payton · Post #1352 » by **Elden Payton** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:53 am

Badd_Intentions wrote:
Sik Infant wrote:
Badd_Intentions wrote:No way is Barnes a franchise player. If i'm wrong about that I will gladly eat crow, but he isn't a franchise guy. He's a nice player to have, but you can't just dump the ball into him for buckets. NBA Defenders are going to make him put it on the deck, he hasn't show he can consistently get good 1 on 1 looks vs college players let alone pros.

How many "franchise" players are in the league though? "Superstar" is a term that is bandied around too often and when you count them truly there is only a handful of "true" superstars and especially fewer with many at the tale end of their careers.

Because you can dump the ball to Melo for a basket does that make him a franchise player? How about Al Jefferson,Amare,Love & Bynum?

People also use the whole Barnes isn't a first option argument and then ask(rhetorically) what about when barnes has to break his man down off the dribble, what about when Lebron (etc) is guarding him, his shot is overrated, he's not athletic(lol) etc.

Every man and his dog knows at this point in his career that Barnes cannot carry an NBA(or NCAA) offense but he is an excellent piece for any team picking 2-7 in this draft.

The things that restrict Barnes the most in terms of ceiling(handles/playmaking/defense) can be improved and he is an excellent second or third option, when he doesn't get the oppositions best defender and gets some space he will be an all-star imo.

It doesn't matter how many franchise players are in the league. I'm just saying Barnes won't be one of them. A franchise guy to me is a guy that a team is built around. I don't see a team being built around what he does. You can build around PG's that have an uncanny feel for the game, dominant post threats, and wings that get to the basket. Barnes is neither.

It does matter about how many franchise guys are in the league right now because everyone wants one and there are barely any.

In this draft the closest thing to a franchise player is a lock for one and there is about five players underneath on the tier below, whether people like it or not Barnes is one of those players.

People's perception on how to draft is flawed(including my own) because we are not professionals at this but even the pro's stuff up at this. The point I'm making is that we need a "star" definitely and after the best chance at one is gone you are not meant to take the player that has a chance of being the best(Beal/Drummond), we take the BPA who still has a perceived high ceiling(Robinson/MKG/Barnes).

The reason I stick up for Stun/Battery etc is because when they make a proclamation like Stun with Barnes people get on them and say "how could you be so sure"..."that's stupid"..."how could you proclaim something like that??" etc and then follow it up with "there is NO WAY (insert player) will EVER be that good".

Hypocrisy at it's finest.

Badd_Intentions · Post #1353 » by **Badd_Intentions** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:59 am

I'm not saying those things, just based on what i've seen out of Barnes for the last couple of years in college, I don't think he'll be a franchise player. And i've given what I feel is pretty good evidence to back it up. Now am I saying without a shadow of a doubt he's never gonna be franchise player or calling Stun stupid for saying he will? No, not at all. He has his opinion and I respect that. Just respectfully disagreeing.

Let me ask you why do you think Barnes will be a franchise player? Or were you just agreeing with Stun to go against the masses?

Badd_Intentions · Post #1354 » by **Badd_Intentions** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:08 am

Screw it, take TRob this year and take Shabazz Muhammad next yr.

Stun704 · Post #1355 » by **Stun704** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:12 am

Badd_Intentions wrote:Screw it, take TRob this year and take Shabazz Muhammad next yr.

T-Rob was my first choice, but i'd be completely happy with either

Its T-Rob/ Biz Vs Shabazz/Barnes

Which combo is more enticing?(implying that both pan out)

Badd_Intentions · Post #1356 » by **Badd_Intentions** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:15 am

From what i've seen/heard about Shabazz so far, I like how he attacks the basket, and he has some range. He really stood out in the MCD and the Jordan Classic.

Elden Payton · Post #1357 » by **Elden Payton** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:27 am

Badd_Intentions wrote:I'm not saying those things, just based on what i've seen out of Barnes for the last couple of years in college, I don't think he'll be a franchise player. And i've given what I feel is pretty good evidence to back it up. Now am I saying without a shadow of a doubt he's never gonna be franchise player or calling Stun stupid for saying he will? No, not at all. He has his opinion and I respect that. Just respectfully disagreeing.

Let me ask you why do you think Barnes will be a franchise player? Or were you just agreeing with Stun to go against the masses?

Glad for the clairification, I'm not saying Barnes WILL be a franchise player...I'm just saying there is a CHANCE he will be...there's a chance he won't be either and I'm respectful of that.

He's athletic, he has good form on his shot, he can catch & shoot(underrated ability), his defense is underrated, he can handle the ball a little and I believe it will improve, his playmaking is very so-so but if he can get to three assists a game in the league it is passable.

I believe his rebouding is underrated because he played with a monstrous front court.

There are a lot of questions around Barnes and deservedly so, I see him as a high floor/high ceiling type of guy but I don't think he has Durant's potential but a rich man's Rashard Lewis?? I can see that definitely.

Your post below the one I've quoted is exactly correct, once you know you aren't going to snag the superstar you have to take the guy that has a 90 percent chance to be a fringe all-star/high calibre roleplayer (Robinson/MKG) over the guy that has a 40% chance to be a perennial all-star(Drummond/Beal).

The reason I like Barnes is because he is somewhere between both...A guy that at his worst is a rich mans Landry Fields and at best a perennial all-star.

I WOULD NOT take Barnes top three though Cleveland and Sacto would but from 4-7 he is amazing value imo.

I believe the way you end up mediocre is you take an assortment of project players with high ceilings who never pan out and don't fit together(Washington,Sacto,Golden State etc) and still have enough talent to finish around the middle of the pack/late lotto..

I believe that as soon as you miss out on the big fish you take the guys that fit a definite role/need and are high character types who will work on their game relentlessly, you will still suck but are collecting secure assets and have a chance at striking gold next year.

We are so young in our rebuild that missing out on Davis won't hurt us in the long run.

A home run talent comes around every half decade or so and when we land him we will have a team ready to win.

TheKingofSting · Post #1358 » by **TheKingofSting** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:03 am

Stun704 wrote:
Badd_Intentions wrote:Screw it, take TRob this year and take Shabazz Muhammad next yr.

T-Rob was my first choice, but i'd be completely happy with either

Its T-Rob/ Biz Vs Shabazz/Barnes

Which combo is more enticing?(implying that both pan out)

Shabazz/Barnes easily

Stun704 · Post #1359 » by **Stun704** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:31 am

Kemba2Hendo wrote:
Stun704 wrote:
Badd_Intentions wrote:Screw it, take TRob this year and take Shabazz Muhammad next yr.

T-Rob was my first choice, but i'd be completely happy with either

Its T-Rob/ Biz Vs Shabazz/Barnes

Which combo is more enticing?(implying that both pan out)

Shabazz/Barnes easily

If Mully can gain some bawls and become a half decent defender/rebounder this could actually be a nice squad

Kemba(Westbrook Role)/vet
Hendo(Thabo Role)/Shabazz(Harden role until he becomes vastly superior to Hendo)
Barnes(Durant role)/UPS(good role player off the bench)
Mully(Nick Collison)/Jamison
Biz(Afro Dwight)/Kwame

Elden Payton · Post #1360 » by **Elden Payton** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:13 am

A lot of franchises put the horse before the cart and draft project players that don't fit and as soon as they get their "elite" prospect they have to make a lot of trades to balance there squad and get the right players around them.

We have the bones of a nice squad and that is the critic as well as the homer in me, Kemba,Hendo,Mullens & Biyombo regardless of their ceilings are role players at least and will shine when we eventually get our number one option.

I voted for Robinson in the poll but with every day that passes MKG becomes more appealing to me and if we don't trade our pick for six where I'm convinced Robinson will be available that we should take MKG.

I say this because I have complete faith in Biyombo and Mullens really intrigues me...we can't forget that if we miss out on the number one next year(Shabazz) the consolation will be Cody Zeller, Nerlens Noel.

Jamison is our only realistic difference maker FA target and if draft Robinson and sign Jamison we have a glut.

I also think we should trade Diop for Okafor+10

Who should the Bobcats draft at #2?