SixerFan1976 Offseason Thread (Update Pg 73)

[Winejk]

You can argue the merits between Deng vs. Iguodala all day, the one thing that will scare most teams from Deng is his wrist injury. It needs surgery and he doesn't plan to get it done until after this summer. He will miss significant time at the beginning of next season. No one is going to trade a lottery pick for half a year of Deng.

[ChuckS]

Yes he sucked in his first two year. So did Joe Johnson, so did Chauncey Billups. And we should trade him for a mediocre player that has already peaked?

You did say mediocre player so I cannot fault you, per se, but we have been discussing players who have peaked as something bad, without differentiating at what level they have peaked. The way that we have been discussing some good players as trade targets also leads me to believe some consider anyone but a superstar mediocre.

It's difficult for me to say with total confidence based on our history, but I'm sure there must be some in the organization, with the total years of basketball experience they have, who can make an educated decision whether Evan, or anyone else we trade, will ever reach the level at which whomever we trade him for has peaked. And even if both are seen as ultimately being at the same level, we might still be better off making the trade if it is for a player better at the particular skill that we more need.

I just hope that that decision maker with ultimate authority is not one of those who have, for two decades, been taking that one step back without the requisite two steps forward. We dumped Korver purportedly to give the young Thad his minutes, and created a perimeter shooting weakness we still have not rectified. We dumped Sammy and created a dire need for a defensive center. We let Dre Miller walk so Lou could take his place, and still need to sacrifice much of Iguodala's game so he can run the offense. We wasted seven million a year and ultimately dumped Nocioni (who may or may not have been totally washed up), sacrificed AI's scoring for some who shoot worse, and even dumped Willie Green, to further develop youth. As funny as it seems (and it is actually more sad) Hollinger has Green fourteen (14) positions higher than Turner in his shooting guard rankings.

In summary, as evidenced by our roster, we have taken a youth is all position. I think the good teams in the league have a much better balance of youth and experience. If we had young players like Durant, Westbrook, Harden, etal, this might make sense. But it is obvious with our (and I think NBA) history that such is easier said than done. I hope than someone in authority finally realizes that, like veterans, all young players are not equal, and has the basketball knowledge to separate the"wheat from the chaff".

[bebopdeluxe]

Calling Turner a mediocre player in his first two years would be a compliment

What do you believe Turner - on the heels of his underwhelming play through much of the playoffs - is worth in a trade right now...and do you believe that the return that we would get for Turner would - in combination with keeping Iguodala - make the team better than, for example, trading Iguodala and allowing Turner to be Iggy's poor-man's replacement?

My point was that Evan Turner aspires to be mediocre. I really do not see why so many people want to read in more to what I said, but since you asked.

Evan Turner is to Andre Iguodala as Spencer Hawes is to Andrew Bynum

Yeah...I think that Turner (a guy who was THE MAN at St. Joseph's and at THE Ohio State U.) spends every waking hour this summer working on ways to perfect his mediocrity.

For a new guy around here, you certainly know how to liven up a thread.

[EugeneBWhitaker]

Yeah...I think that Turner (a guy who was THE MAN at St. Joseph's and at THE Ohio State U.) spends every waking hour this summer working on ways to perfect his mediocrity.

I admire his work ethic. He spent the past off season working on his shot with reportedly one of the best shot coaches around. With the lock out he had extra time if he wanted to work on his shot, and yet his shot was still pathetic this year.

Work Ethic is great, but if you do not have the inherent talent ability, it will be for naught. Turner showed no improvement in his shot this year, after making it a focus last off season. I do not see why this off season will be different.

[bebopdeluxe]

Yes he sucked in his first two year. So did Joe Johnson, so did Chauncey Billups. And we should trade him for a mediocre player that has already peaked?

You did say mediocre player so I cannot fault you, per se, but we have been discussing players who have peaked as something bad, without differentiating at what level they have peaked. The way that we have been discussing some good players as trade targets also leads me to believe some consider anyone but a superstar mediocre.

It's difficult for me to say with total confidence based on our history, but I'm sure there must be some in the organization, with the total years of basketball experience they have, who can make an educated decision whether Evan, or anyone else we trade, will ever reach the level at which whomever we trade him for has peaked. And even if both are seen as ultimately being at the same level, we might still be better off making the trade if it is for a player better at the particular skill that we more need.

I just hope that that decision maker with ultimate authority is not one of those who have, for two decades, been taking that one step back without the requisite two steps forward. We dumped Korver purportedly to give the young Thad his minutes, and created a perimeter shooting weakness we still have not rectified. We dumped Sammy and created a dire need for a defensive center. We let Dre Miller walk so Lou could take his place, and still need to sacrifice much of Iguodala's game so he can run the offense. We wasted seven million a year and ultimately dumped Nocioni (who may or may not have been totally washed up), sacrificed AI's scoring for some who shoot worse, and even dumped Willie Green, to further develop youth. As funny as it seems (and it is actually more sad) Hollinger has Green fourteen (14) positions higher than Turner in his shooting guard rankings.

In summary, as evidenced by our roster, we have taken a youth is all position. I think the good teams in the league have a much better balance of youth and experience. If we had young players like Durant, Westbrook, Harden, etal, this might make sense. But it is obvious with our (and I think NBA) history that such is easier said than done. I hope than someone in authority finally realizes that, like veterans, all young players are not equal, and has the basketball knowledge to separate the"wheat from the chaff".

Well stated, Chuck.

Your list of strategically questionable player decisions is an embarassment to the franchise...and at this point, we really have no way of knowing whether giving the keys to Collins will improve on that - although the bar is certainly low. In retrospect, picking Turner over Favors showed a frustrating lack of both knowledge AND courage...taking a guy who always had the ball in his hands and expecting him to become Ray Allen or Rip Hamilton was doomed from the start (unless the original plan was to trade Iguodala), and it is another example of a team who has no long-term focus. Take the "ready to play" guy (even though you already had other options there and Turner showed NOTHING in his game to suggest that he would be an effective off-the-ball guy) over the guy who was a better long-term fit in Favors.

And, unfortunately, I think that Collins' mind set will continue to be short-term...as opposed to stockpiling draft picks (in a year where you could potentially add a couple of impact guys), we may wind up trading for somebody like Jefferson...which only kicks the can down the road, IMO.

Whatever people think of Turner, it should not be as a classic off-the-ball SG...he never was one, and it is unlikely that he will ever BE one. Before we give the guy away for 60 cents on the dollar, it would be nice to see if he could add value as our starting SF. If the buzz is correct, it sounds like he will get that chance next season.

[sweetlou23]

Yes he sucked in his first two year. So did Joe Johnson, so did Chauncey Billups. And we should trade him for a mediocre player that has already peaked?

You did say mediocre player so I cannot fault you, per se, but we have been discussing players who have peaked as something bad, without differentiating at what level they have peaked. The way that we have been discussing some good players as trade targets also leads me to believe some consider anyone but a superstar mediocre.

It's difficult for me to say with total confidence based on our history, but I'm sure there must be some in the organization, with the total years of basketball experience they have, who can make an educated decision whether Evan, or anyone else we trade, will ever reach the level at which whomever we trade him for has peaked. And even if both are seen as ultimately being at the same level, we might still be better off making the trade if it is for a player better at the particular skill that we more need.

I just hope that that decision maker with ultimate authority is not one of those who have, for two decades, been taking that one step back without the requisite two steps forward. We dumped Korver purportedly to give the young Thad his minutes, and created a perimeter shooting weakness we still have not rectified. We dumped Sammy and created a dire need for a defensive center. We let Dre Miller walk so Lou could take his place, and still need to sacrifice much of Iguodala's game so he can run the offense. We wasted seven million a year and ultimately dumped Nocioni (who may or may not have been totally washed up), sacrificed AI's scoring for some who shoot worse, and even dumped Willie Green, to further develop youth. As funny as it seems (and it is actually more sad) Hollinger has Green fourteen (14) positions higher than Turner in his shooting guard rankings.

In summary, as evidenced by our roster, we have taken a youth is all position. I think the good teams in the league have a much better balance of youth and experience. If we had young players like Durant, Westbrook, Harden, etal, this might make sense. But it is obvious with our (and I think NBA) history that such is easier said than done. I hope than someone in authority finally realizes that, like veterans, all young players are not equal, and has the basketball knowledge to separate the"wheat from the chaff".

Well stated, Chuck.

Your list of strategically questionable player decisions is an embarassment to the franchise...and at this point, we really have no way of knowing whether giving the keys to Collins will improve on that - although the bar is certainly low. In retrospect, picking Turner over Favors showed a frustrating lack of both knowledge AND courage...taking a guy who always had the ball in his hands and expecting him to become Ray Allen or Rip Hamilton was doomed from the start (unless the original plan was to trade Iguodala), and it is another example of a team who has no long-term focus. Take the "ready to play" guy (even though you already had other options there and Turner showed NOTHING in his game to suggest that he would be an effective off-the-ball guy) over the guy who was a better long-term fit in Favors.

And, unfortunately, I think that Collins' mind set will continue to be short-term...as opposed to stockpiling draft picks (in a year where you could potentially add a couple of impact guys), we may wind up trading for somebody like Jefferson...which only kicks the can down the road, IMO.

Whatever people think of Turner, it should not be as a classic off-the-ball SG...he never was one, and it is unlikely that he will ever BE one. Before we give the guy away for 60 cents on the dollar, it would be nice to see if he could add value as our starting SF. If the buzz is correct, it sounds like he will get that chance next season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4354227

Miller was allowed to walk because of Jrue, not Lou.

[EugeneBWhitaker]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4354227

Miller was allowed to walk because of Jrue, not Lou.

Andre MIller should have been traded before his contract expired. He had value but a first round playoff loss was more important

[ChuckS]

Miller was allowed to walk because of Jrue, not Lou.

I believe that to be incorrect.

His departure means the Sixers will likely turn to fourth-year guard Lou Williams to run the point. They made UCLA's Jrue Holiday their first-round pick and hope he can develop into their point guard of the future. Shooting guard Willie Green is the only other true guard on the roster, leaving the Sixers thin in the backcourt.

Stefanski said that Lou was trained and ready, although I'm sure they felt they had a fall back position with the untested Jrue, as ultimately a point guard of the future.

Andre MIller should have been traded before his contract expired. He had value but a first round playoff loss was more important

I disagree. I think Dre should have been kept until someone learned how to play the position, and beyond, until they actually could give us what he provided, a cohesive offense. It was just another example of someone believing young was better than good. Dre was still a top ten point guard, and even now would fill a great need, even as a backup.

Certainly Eddie Jordan deserves all the credit he received for destroying the team, but Pete Carril opined that much of his problems were the result of his lack of a point guard. Do not forget that Jrue was the worst (I think - or close) point guard in the league as a rookie, but still had to replace Lou, who lacked the instincts and then the skills as a one, and was more of a shooter, as our starter.

[bebopdeluxe]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4354227

Miller was allowed to walk because of Jrue, not Lou.

Andre MIller should have been traded before his contract expired. He had value but a first round playoff loss was more important

So, I would think that - using the same basic thought process (move an asset while you still control it, before you lose control of it) - you would want to trade Iguodala this summer, given that he will probably play in the Olympics this summer (which will keep him from strengthening his knee) and will come back to a team with material personnel changes (which will challenge the team's ability to improve on how they did this season)...given that he has an ETO that would allow him to walk next summer, better to move him now - right?

And if so, wouldn't Turner be a reasonable option to take some of Iguodala's minutes at SF? Paired with a better shooting SG, Turner's outside shot would not be as much of an issue, while his credible on-the-ball defense and rebounding ability would be extremely valuable - yes?

[phiphan]

Wow, remember when this thread was about rumors provided by Sixerfan?

Seriously. This has devolved into total incomprehensibility.

[EugeneBWhitaker]

So, I would think that - using the same basic thought process (move an asset while you still control it, before you lose control of it) - you would want to trade Iguodala this summer, given that he will probably play in the Olympics this summer (which will keep him from strengthening his knee) and will come back to a team with material personnel changes (which will challenge the team's ability to improve on how they did this season)...given that he has an ETO that would allow him to walk next summer, better to move him now - right?

And if so, wouldn't Turner be a reasonable option to take some of Iguodala's minutes at SF? Paired with a better shooting SG, Turner's outside shot would not be as much of an issue, while his credible on-the-ball defense and rebounding ability would be extremely valuable - yes?

I don't see how the sixers can make material changes without trading Andre Iguodala. I do not know if Andre Iguodala will be on the final olympic roster. Many players might show up that did not show up last year that take priority over him. I think he has a better than 50% chance of making the team but he is no lock to be one of the final pieces.

As for trading him, yes I do advocate trading him. I advocate trading him because I believe this teams needs to rebuild and he is the best asset they have to obtain building assets. I feel different assets serve different purposes. Much of the talk is immediate impact on the court, next season. I look beyond next season. If they make the moves I think they should the next season is not relevant record wise.

in that same vein, Elton Brand should be amnesty'd in my estimation, without condition or if such and such becomes available, as it is easier to facilitate trades (and obtain assets) with cap room than with an expiring contract.

There are no great free agents out there worth giving a big deal to with the youth and development of the players on this roster that matter. Yes, I mean none, not even Deron Williams.

This is just how I see the situation.

[51X3RF4N]

Any interest in Patty Mills as a replacement to Lou and PG off the bench? Seems like it would make sense for the right price.

SF, thank you for the updates. I wish the mods could just move the last 20 pages of this thread into it's own thread.

[tgo2223]

@ChuckS

I disagree with you completely. andre miller should have been traded at the deadline the year we trade for him. we should have been in the greg oden and kevin durant sweepstakes. this is not the nfl nba championship teams are built much differently.

[SparksFly87]

2010 number 2 pick was handed to us. We picked Turner over the bigs (Favors, Cousins and Monroe) . We better start using Turner for what he was in College. Thaddues Young needs to be placed somewhere either learn how to dribble and be our smallfoward or trade him. Also we better get Drummond in this draft some how!

[SouthJersey]

Andre Miller didnt want to resign in Philadelphia. He liked it on the West Coast and never gave any indication he was resigning when asked in interviews.

Turner's got to improve his shot, other than that I see a guy who can develope, especially if he hits the gym. His weakness is shooting, but that's got to improve. Is his shooting form more flawed than Iguodalas? I'm not an expert, but I would say no. No matter what you say about the playoff run, they went 7-6, and it was because of how Turner stepped up, rebounded 7.5 balls a game, and was 3rd in minutes played per game (7 mpg more than any other player)

SF1976...do you know if their has been any interest yet from Minnesota about Iggy? I believe in the past they did not want to take salary, but I heard that may have changed.

[Chamberlainship]

I think Andre Miller did want to come back, but Stefanski didn't make a legit offer because he wanted to move on. Remember Miller's near triple-double against us in January? That guy was fun to watch. Tough as nails, quiet, and very competitive. I don't think he gets enough respect.

[ankle420breaker]

Depending on who we draft and what moves we make, I'd be willing to bring back Andre Miller for the right price to run our 2nd unit and mentor Holiday. The man still has some game left in his tank and now that Lou is gone, I'd definitely keep an eye on him this off-season.

[Chamberlainship]

I think that ship has sailed. But I wish Turner would pick up some of his tricks for playing effectively below the rim.

[Cru Thik]

Miller isn't going to comeback and play on the 76ers. He will go to a contender with a legit chance to win a championship.

Any updates? Seems like it's gotten really quite on that front. Only 10 days away what's the word SF?

[Do the Jrue]

I like how people act like trading for Jefferson would be the most mediocre panic move in the world. Al Jefferson would be the best power forward in the East besides Bosh, and it would be debatable that Bosh would even be better than him. He's better right now and will continue to be better for the next 5 years over any PF prospect in this draft. And that might just be our most needed position. Don't bring up his losing record...the best players he's played with were DWill for a few months and two guys who play the same position as him (Love and Milsap). Then find a way to bring in an Okafor type defender at center to put next to him.