SixerFan1976 Offseason Thread (Update Pg 73)

[The Sixer Fixer]

IMO As a whole the Sixers team rebounded average, i was exaggerating when i said "horrendous" simply because i was using it in the same sentence to describe sepncer hawes.

If we're talking stats, the Sixers rebounding differential Was -.59 which was 19th in the league, which was average. I blame our weaknesses on Hawes and our front court.

Hawes missed about half the season...not sure how he can mainly be to blame for that. Unless you are blaming him because we would have been better had he played all year.

[The Sixer Fixer]

Amongst all this wonderful debate, I believe we've accomplished 1 thing.

We need a athletic big man who can rebound in the worst way. Whether he's playing next to Hawes or Vuc or someone else is TBD. Either way we need to improve our front court big time.

Yes, I agree completely on this. I don't want an athletic big who can't (or doesn't want to) defend though. Honestly, I have seen 4 complete Miss. St. games and Moultrie is a bum on defense from what I have seen. I doubt those games are an anomaly at this point. He's OK 1 on 1, I would say, but he's awful as a help defender trying to defend anyone going to the rim. His instinct is to start boxing out and let the guy go right in for an uncontested layup. I'm sure that type of "defense" helps raise his rebound numbers and make him look better that he is in that area.

[EugeneBWhitaker]

Amongst all this wonderful debate, I believe we've accomplished 1 thing.

We need a athletic big man who can rebound in the worst way. Whether he's playing next to Hawes or Vuc or someone else is TBD. Either way we need to improve our front court big time.

Yes, I agree completely on this. I don't want an athletic big who can't (or doesn't want to) defend though. Honestly, I have seen 4 complete Miss. St. games and Moultrie is a bum on defense from what I have seen. I doubt those games are an anomaly at this point. He's OK 1 on 1, I would say, but he's awful as a help defender trying to defend anyone going to the rim. His instinct is to start boxing out and let the guy go right in for an uncontested layup. I'm sure that type of "defense" helps raise his rebound numbers and make him look better that he is in that area.

Well see the sixers had an athletic big man who can rebound, and block shots.

They felt Spencer Hawes was a better idea

[Kobblehead]

They felt Spencer Hawes was a better idea

That's not fair. Sammy forced his way out of Philly.

[PhilasFinest]

And in my opinion, you're just flat out wrong, and using the wrong information to do it.

It is not about rebound differential, it is about how many of the available rebounds does a team get.



And defensive and offensive rebounding are separate issues (in my opinion)

And the sixers were not 'average' in rebounding defensively, they were one of the top teams in the league at defensive rebounding

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/ ... asontype/2

Look at the percentages, not the counting stats

Well I agree to disagree. We were a good defensive rebounding team, but offensively we weren't. Combine the 2 and we were average IMO. I measure a teams rebounding success by simply having more of them at the end of the game. The top tier rebounding teams ( chi lal Utah etc) generally out rebounded there opponents on a nightly basis. We didn't

[The Sixer Fixer]

They felt Spencer Hawes was a better idea

Yep. Who do you think they would prefer now? And agree with Kobble that, to an extent, Sammy forced the team to unload him. I'd say they would prefer option C at this point.

[EugeneBWhitaker]

Well I agree to disagree. We were a good defensive rebounding team, but offensively we weren't. Combine the 2 and we were average IMO. I measure a teams rebounding success by simply having more of them at the end of the game. The top tier rebounding teams ( chi lal Utah etc) generally out rebounded there opponents on a nightly basis. We didn't

I understand how you measure rebounding success, and honestly, I feel you measure it wrong, and you can agree to disagree, but mainly people say that when they want to ignore the stronger statistic that proves them wrong and stick with the older school statistic, like the crotchety old baseball writer who still clings to batting average.

I believe that I already said the sixers were a good defensive rebounding team and a poor offensive rebounding team, and I also said that in my opinion, defensive rebounding is a lot more important...especially on a team that thrives on transition baskets.

If you want to be intractable and cling to the old inadequate ESPN ways to determine who is and isn't good, there's no point in continuing the discussion.

[EugeneBWhitaker]

They felt Spencer Hawes was a better idea

Yep. Who do you think they would prefer now? And agree with Kobble that, to an extent, Sammy forced the team to unload him. I'd say they would prefer option C at this point.

And I don't agree with the 'sam forced them to unload him' - that's team spin after the fact - so that when the inevitable egg is all over their face for making ahorrible trade they can justify it SOMEHOW.

It was a bad stupid trade, and trust me, I was never a huge Sam Dalembert fan, but Spencer Hawes made me one.

Did Sam take bad shots, sure he did - Spencer Hawes takes 3 pointers for gods sake

[PhilasFinest]

Amongst all this wonderful debate, I believe we've accomplished 1 thing.

We need a athletic big man who can rebound in the worst way. Whether he's playing next to Hawes or Vuc or someone else is TBD. Either way we need to improve our front court big time.

Yes, I agree completely on this. I don't want an athletic big who can't (or doesn't want to) defend though. Honestly, I have seen 4 complete Miss. St. games and Moultrie is a bum on defense from what I have seen. I doubt those games are an anomaly at this point. He's OK 1 on 1, I would say, but he's awful as a help defender trying to defend anyone going to the rim. His instinct is to start boxing out and let the guy go right in for an uncontested layup. I'm sure that type of "defense" helps raise his rebound numbers and make him look better that he is in that area.

Agree with you. But if Hawes isn't staying we're still looking for a center. Moultrie paired with a good defensive/shot blocking 5 could be a solid front court. He's not a terrible man-man defender, so if there's someone alongside who strengths are his weakness it's works of course.

Im just looking at him as one of the better fits likely available at 15. Should be a interesting draft day.

[Kobblehead]

Eugene, you got selective memory bro. Sam requested like 5 different trades that year and by the time Doug got hired, he wasn't even on speaking terms with the front office.

[PhilasFinest]

I understand how you measure rebounding success, and honestly, I feel you measure it wrong, and you can agree to disagree, but mainly people say that when they want to ignore the stronger statistic that proves them wrong and stick with the older school statistic, like the crotchety old baseball writer who still clings to batting average.

I believe that I already said the sixers were a good defensive rebounding team and a poor offensive rebounding team, and I also said that in my opinion, defensive rebounding is a lot more important...especially on a team that thrives on transition baskets.

If you want to be intractable and cling to the old inadequate ESPN ways to determine who is and isn't good, there's no point in continuing the discussion.

Ok well we obviously don't see eye to eye on rebounding. you value defensive rebounding more than total rebounds. At the end of the day if My team has 40 rebounds and yours has 35, my team was better at rebounding. Dont see how I'm being intractable/ clinging to old inadequate stats with that outlook, it's fairly simple.

[corwin]

I want Hawes gone. Period.

+1. No need for cap clogging players that keep you stuck in mediocrity.

You know what I find super ironic? Hawes is only about 6 months older than Turner, and yet Turner is supposedly some saviour who is going to 'develop' into a superstar while Hawes is just some stiff who has no room to improve...

Hawes has at least shown double-double potential in this league. But hey, I guess skilled 7 footers just grow on trees these days...

Well, my comment wasn't about ET. I'll save that for another time. But I watched enough of Sponge's mediocrity to know that you can't tie up starters money in scrubs. BTW, he apparently turned down a contract last year that would have paid him back-up money. You can't blame the player for getting as much as they can, but you can blame management for over spending on marginal guys.

[PhilasFinest]

Eugene, you got selective memory bro. Sam requested like 5 different trades that year and by the time Doug got hired, he wasn't even on speaking terms with the front office.

This.

Although if we had him this year, we Would have had one hell of a defense.

Our d was already amongst the top, add in pretty good shot blocker and were in at another level.

[PhilasFinest]

Well, my comment wasn't about ET. I'll save that for another time. But I watched enough of Sponge's mediocrity to know that you can't tie up starters money in scrubs. BTW, he apparently turned down a contract last year that would have paid him back-up money. You can't blame the player for getting as much as they can, but you can blame management for over spending on marginal guys.

Love this post.

That is my biggest dislike with Hawes. I dont wanna tie up 5-7 million bucks on an average center. Vucevic can likely duplicate Hawes' production at a fraction of the cost.

[Chamberlainship]

Rebounding was a problem. In game 6 against chicago, we were out rebounded 56-33. Even Marc Zumoff was frustrated.

[EugeneBWhitaker]

Rebounding was a problem. In game 6 against chicago, we were out rebounded 56-33. Even Marc Zumoff was frustrated.

And yet over all the sixers rebounded well in the playoffs, and regular season.

They had bad games, they had great games, that's why when you evaluate a team you look at the whole picture, not just a small sample, or one game for goodness sakes.

[Chamberlainship]

You're right of course as to sample size. But that game stuck out in my mind.

On Hawes, I don't think he's athletic enough to be a good starting center. Also, it bugs me how he seems to get overly emotional and has to be taken out of games. I do respect him for his charity work though.

[corwin]

Count me as one who takes all of the advanced statistics with a grain of salt. How many of you remember Kenny Thomas before League Pass was around? The guy was putting up huge numbers of mostly defensive boards. So what! When you need someone to grab one, does the player get it? Even CWuss managed to get critical rebounds sometimes. IMO, Hawes just gets moved out of the way. Nice back-up. Maybe we can send him to his former agent in GS as part of a S&T.

[PhilasFinest]

Chicago was the best rebounding team in the league. They did it to alot of people.

I agree with you tho chamberlain, we need to improve on the glass all around.

[EugeneBWhitaker]

Chicago was the best rebounding team in the league. They did it to alot of people.

I agree with you tho chamberlain, we need to improve on the glass all around.

The sixers have bigger problems than improving rebounding.