Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
Moderators: montestewart, LyricalRico, nate33
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
-
- RealGM
- Posts: 24,440
- And1: 4,438
- Joined: Nov 21, 2004
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
Another thing about this deal? We will tease-enough during the next two years to guess-what? Get Ernie another extension in two-years.
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
-
- Starter
- Posts: 2,189
- And1: 462
- Joined: May 22, 2007
-
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
I don't mind the TYPE of deal that EG made.
I do mind the PLAYERS he made it for.
If he had traded Lewis for Gordon and Charlie V, even without bringing back #9 (and there was no way we were bringing back #9), then I would have been okay. Not overjoyed, but okay. We then trade Booker for some value, maybe a 3 and D swingman and have a roster like this:
PG: Wall/Mack/Gordon
SG: Beal/Gordon
SF:Green/Singleton
PF:Vesley/Villanueva/Seraphin
C:Nene/Seraphin
If you wanted to make a win-now move, there were better moves to be made. Not moves that basically made it HARDER to develop our young bigs, added a 48 TS% shotjacker, and telegraphed our pick, which the Bobcats could easily trade out of to some other team that actually wants Beal.
I do mind the PLAYERS he made it for.
If he had traded Lewis for Gordon and Charlie V, even without bringing back #9 (and there was no way we were bringing back #9), then I would have been okay. Not overjoyed, but okay. We then trade Booker for some value, maybe a 3 and D swingman and have a roster like this:
PG: Wall/Mack/Gordon
SG: Beal/Gordon
SF:Green/Singleton
PF:Vesley/Villanueva/Seraphin
C:Nene/Seraphin
If you wanted to make a win-now move, there were better moves to be made. Not moves that basically made it HARDER to develop our young bigs, added a 48 TS% shotjacker, and telegraphed our pick, which the Bobcats could easily trade out of to some other team that actually wants Beal.
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
- sashae
- Bench Warmer
- Posts: 1,347
- And1: 94
- Joined: Dec 15, 2003
- Location: nyc
-
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
Don't worry, Harrison Barnes will take us to the promised land.
On that note, is Barnes or Drummond the "most Ernie" pick?
On that note, is Barnes or Drummond the "most Ernie" pick?
ernie grunfeld: the perpetual dumpster fire of general management
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
-
- Analyst
- Posts: 3,074
- And1: 145
- Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
CCJ, I don't understand how this trade will limit Seraphin's ability to get 30 minutes a night. I expect him to still end up as a starter next to Nene, but even if he doesn't there are minutes to go around between him, Nene, and Okafor. Booker and Vesely may get squeezed a bit but I honestly don't expect both of them on the roster before the season. I think Booker will be shopped leading up to the draft.
Nothing wrong with quality depth and making the young guys learn how to play and then earn their PT; the exact same point Doc Rivers made about this team in his comment about Avery Bradley.
Ryan Anderson and Ilysova would have cost $8-10 MM annually for a long-term deal; and even then you may not have convinced them to come here unless you paid a little more.
We've gotten a decent look at the guys on rookie deals the past two years. The team can't just throw them out there and expect they'll learn on the job. They also have an idea (at least for the '10 class) on who they feel are long-term fits. IMO, Wall, Seraphin, and Vesely are the long-term holds. Singleton, Booker, and Crawford will likely be availabe for the right deal.
Nothing wrong with quality depth and making the young guys learn how to play and then earn their PT; the exact same point Doc Rivers made about this team in his comment about Avery Bradley.
Ryan Anderson and Ilysova would have cost $8-10 MM annually for a long-term deal; and even then you may not have convinced them to come here unless you paid a little more.
We've gotten a decent look at the guys on rookie deals the past two years. The team can't just throw them out there and expect they'll learn on the job. They also have an idea (at least for the '10 class) on who they feel are long-term fits. IMO, Wall, Seraphin, and Vesely are the long-term holds. Singleton, Booker, and Crawford will likely be availabe for the right deal.
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
-
- Head Coach
- Posts: 6,825
- And1: 4,354
- Joined: Jan 24, 2012
- Location: DC/MD/VA
-
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
The only thing this trade does is solidify the fact that EG is a complete moron and that he'll draft Harrison Barnes with Beal still on the draft board
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
-
- Analyst
- Posts: 3,074
- And1: 145
- Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
Chaos Revenant wrote:I don't mind the TYPE of deal that EG made.
I do mind the PLAYERS he made it for.
If he had traded Lewis for Gordon and Charlie V, even without bringing back #9 (and there was no way we were bringing back #9), then I would have been okay. Not overjoyed, but okay. We then trade Booker for some value, maybe a 3 and D swingman and have a roster like this:
PG: Wall/Mack/Gordon
SG: Beal/Gordon
SF:Green/Singleton
PF:Vesley/Villanueva/Seraphin
C:Nene/Seraphin
If you wanted to make a win-now move, there were better moves to be made. Not moves that basically made it HARDER to develop our young bigs, added a 48 TS% shotjacker, and telegraphed our pick, which the Bobcats could easily trade out of to some other team that actually wants Beal.
Charlie V? The same guy who just got cut from the Domincan Republic national team for being out of shape? Exactly what we'd want to bring into the lockerroom....Come on....
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
-
- Junior
- Posts: 481
- And1: 126
- Joined: Jul 07, 2010
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
Spence wrote:willbcocks wrote:The above is why our GM messed up even before considering the opportunity cost. I believe that cost is substantial because good things can happen (BOYDs or trades) if you're patient. It's happened to rebuilding teams a lot recently--Cleveland got Kyrie Irving, Chicago got Luol Deng, the Thunder got a lottery pick (and blew it), Miami got 2 superstars. I don't know what we'll get, and maybe it's only another Seraphin, or maybe it's just Jordan freaking Crawford, but the odds were it would be positive, and perhaps significantly so.
You've listed the good things that can happen when you hang on to cap space and make a trade. I'm sure you will concede that the deals you mentioned represent a tiny minority of such deals. Also, I'm sure you will recognize there are difference between Miami [they had Dwyane Wade, a very desirable climate, no state income tax] that DC lacks. The Wizards will never be able to swing the deals LA, Miami and NY make. Players seem automatically interested in playing in those cities, even when the teams in those cities are not terribly good.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
It's important to expound on this point for the board. The cities that have acquired franchise altering players in free agency (or players that were thought to be so at the times the deal were consummated) over the last two decades are NYC, LA, Miami and Orlando (I'll include NY because Melo forced his way to the team with the threat that he would sign there after the season.) That's the list. Missing from that list are myriad GREAT cities/metro areas like the Bay Area, DC, Boston, Chicago, Dallas, Atlanta etc. The two biggest free agent acquisitions made by the latter list of first rate cities over the last decade are Carlos Boozer and Gilbert Arenas.
Let that wash over you. In free agency in virtually every other sport, those cities are considered terrific destinations for UFA targets. In the real world, those cities are almost the complete list of fastest growing major cities/metro areas in the country. Using objective measurements like per capita affluence, again, those cities rank very highly on any list of desirable locales (with the DC met being the most affluent metro area in the country on a per capita basis.) BUT, it's important to recognize that given the uniqueness of Basketball, all of that means virtually zilch because A, from a corporate branding perspective NYC and LA are head and shoulders above any city in the country, and B, there is an EXTREME finite amount of the most important resource in basketball (truly elite players) ratcheting up the desirability of those assets virtually every time they're on the market. That reality essentially funnels elite free agents that choose to leave their respective teams behind and forgo the CBA created, built in advantages of staying with your original team to NYC or LA. Horrendous ownership is really the only thing that has prevented NYC from doing more damage on the free agent trail, but even still, they were able to lure two upper level free agents there without any semblance of stability recently.
That's not to say that cap space isn't important or that their respective markets don't give them an advantage over many cities. Those teams are far more likely to retain their major free agents it seems (Nowitski, Arenas, Pierce, Rose etc.), but the way for those aforementioned cities to build championship teams is through the draft and making smart trades to bring in championship caliber pieces, Boston of a few years ago is an extreme example, but Dallas of last year is a more realistic paradigm. You draft a star or two with one of them hopefully being a superstar, and you bring in a strong supporting cast. You need the cap space to do that, but free agency is not the way to construct a legit contender if you aren't in NY, LA or Miami (and honestly, Miami's appearance on the list has just as much to do with secondary matters, i.e Wade already being there and Riley's imprimatur.)
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
-
- RealGM
- Posts: 11,114
- And1: 4,968
- Joined: Jul 16, 2005
- Location: The Streets of DC
-
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
tontoz wrote:
How is making this deal going to lead to a 15 game improvement?
I'm not suggesting that the Okafor/Ariza deal alone will lead to a 15 game improvement. We're also talking about last year's deal for Nene, the development of young players like Wall, Seraphin and Ves, and the addition of a top draft pick...hopefully Beal.
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
-
- RealGM
- Posts: 17,924
- And1: 9,309
- Joined: Mar 29, 2005
- Location: So long Wizturdz.
-
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
Ilyasova and Anderson are going to demand somewhere between $8 and $11 million. One, I don't think they are worth that kind of contractual commitment and two, the teams they are presently on have every incentive to keep them in the fold.
Batum is just as much of a pipe dream. The Blazers just gutted their roster in an effort to rebuild, and it's quite obvious that Batum and Aldridge are their center pieces.
Now I will give you that there appears to be a logjam at the forward positions, but you're absolutely kidding yourself if you think the Wizards are going to compromise the long term outlook of their team by letting their young players rot on the bench.
Based on everything we've heard and seen the Wizards organization is just as enthusiastic about Kevin's development as the fans. I really don't understand what would lead so many of you to believe that those guys aren't going to get their fair share of minutes.
The truth matter is that neither Singleton, nor Vesely, Booker or Seraphin have done enough in this league to earn heavy starters minutes. It's going to be up to them to earn those minutes. Simply playing them for the sake of giving them minutes isn't going to make this team get better any sooner.
Batum is just as much of a pipe dream. The Blazers just gutted their roster in an effort to rebuild, and it's quite obvious that Batum and Aldridge are their center pieces.
Now I will give you that there appears to be a logjam at the forward positions, but you're absolutely kidding yourself if you think the Wizards are going to compromise the long term outlook of their team by letting their young players rot on the bench.
Based on everything we've heard and seen the Wizards organization is just as enthusiastic about Kevin's development as the fans. I really don't understand what would lead so many of you to believe that those guys aren't going to get their fair share of minutes.
The truth matter is that neither Singleton, nor Vesely, Booker or Seraphin have done enough in this league to earn heavy starters minutes. It's going to be up to them to earn those minutes. Simply playing them for the sake of giving them minutes isn't going to make this team get better any sooner.
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
- tontoz
- RealGM
- Posts: 20,253
- And1: 5,029
- Joined: Apr 11, 2005
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
DCZards wrote:tontoz wrote:
How is making this deal going to lead to a 15 game improvement?
I'm not suggesting that the Okafor/Ariza deal alone will lead to a 15 game improvement. We're also talking about last year's deal for Nene, the development of young players like Wall, Seraphin and Ves, and the addition of a top draft pick...hopefully Beal.
And i believe that would have been enough to get close to 40 wins (assuming a competent 3 was brought in) without blowing $20+ million of next summers cap space.
"bulky agile perimeter bone crunch pick setting draymond green" WizD
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
- Chocolate City Jordanaire
- RealGM
- Posts: 54,524
- And1: 10,291
- Joined: Aug 05, 2001
-
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
Spence wrote:Ed Wood wrote:And I see very little way around the fact that based upon what should be expected of Okafor and Ariza both are extremely overpaid and not really likely to elevate the overall quality of the team to any great degree.
Yep, Okafor and Ariza are very overpaid. No doubt about that. I don't have a list of all the superb NBA players who are both underpaid and actually available in trades, but I suspect the list is microscopically small. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, though, which is one reason I asked for specific names.
Just to be clear, I don't regard overpaying Nicholas Batum and someone else for five years to be a superior alternative to overpaying Okafor and Ariza for two years.
Not sure what you mean by "not really likely to elevate the overall quality of the team to any great degree." I'd concur that we're not going to win a title with those guys. I doubt a deal to put this team in the NBA Finals was on the table. I also have my doubts that such a deal will be available...ever. I wish we could win a championship by just hanging on to cap space until someone offers us a superstar or two, but I just don't see it happening. I acknowledge it is possible, but unlike many here, it seems, I'm not prepared to assume it was inevitable.
Just to throw a few ideas out there: The Wizards could have signed Gerald Wallace. He is a SF who rebounds well. Two needs met by one player. He also defends well and has playoff experience. If they wanted to add a big man, Omer Asik can defend. Spencer Hawes is a big man who can pass, rebound reasonably well, and he can hit an outside shot. If they wanted to add rebounding, Kris Humphries rebounds way better than anybody on the Wizards.
There were other options, and surely some of them on paper appear better to me. Batum wasn't the only idea.
Tre Johnson is the future of the Wizards.
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
- Chocolate City Jordanaire
- RealGM
- Posts: 54,524
- And1: 10,291
- Joined: Aug 05, 2001
-
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
willbcocks wrote:If I were brought in as GM, I would look to move Nene for the best pick or young player could get towards the end of this season.
It would essentially be BOYDing ourselves--rather than trading Okafor because he's not worth his contract, we would be keeping him and moving the better player for positive value. That's my solution to the frontcourt logjam.
I like your idea. You can have Ernie's job.
Tre Johnson is the future of the Wizards.
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
-
- Ballboy
- Posts: 5
- And1: 0
- Joined: Jun 27, 2008
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
Nivek wrote:Nate: You're probably not understanding the importance of acquiring players who will be contractually obligated to play for the Wizards for the next two seasons. It's huge because there's no guarantee that a player NOT contractually obligated to play for the Wizards would ever want to play for the Wizards. Why, the mere thought of such a thing is laughable. HA-HA-HA. See? I just laughed at the thought myself. No one could be enticed to play for a team like the Wizards for a piddling thing like a Brinks truck filled with money. Much better to acquire guys with existing contracts. Then they can be forced to play for the Wizards.
Looked at properly, this is a genius move.
Sorry if the link to Ted's blog has already been posted:
http://www.tedstake.com/2012/06/20/wiza ... ver-trade/
It's shocking how's Ted's rationale for the trade mirrors Nivek's sarcastic take. Not so shocking that the moderator did not allow my negative, but SFW comments, though there are lots of positive comments appearing...
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
- mohammed10
- Assistant Coach
- Posts: 3,857
- And1: 155
- Joined: May 26, 2007
- Location: Playoffs? Playoffs? Yes, playoffs dammit
-
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
From today's Hollinger chat...
Do you think Washington has a shot at the playoffs with their new potential lineup of Wall-Arisa-MKG-Nene-Okafor?
John Hollinger
(12:08 PM)
A shot? I'll go as far as a shot. I don't think it's a particularly good shot, given that they were 28th in offense last year and managed to punt $20 million in cap without addressing that problem, and that they have a terrible coach, but yes, they have something of a shot. Also, they may draft Beal instead of MKG, which I think would be a terrible mistake, but there you go
Do you think Washington has a shot at the playoffs with their new potential lineup of Wall-Arisa-MKG-Nene-Okafor?
John Hollinger
(12:08 PM)
A shot? I'll go as far as a shot. I don't think it's a particularly good shot, given that they were 28th in offense last year and managed to punt $20 million in cap without addressing that problem, and that they have a terrible coach, but yes, they have something of a shot. Also, they may draft Beal instead of MKG, which I think would be a terrible mistake, but there you go
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!
'If' - by Rudyard Kipling
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!
'If' - by Rudyard Kipling
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
-
- RealGM
- Posts: 11,114
- And1: 4,968
- Joined: Jul 16, 2005
- Location: The Streets of DC
-
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
I believe drafting Fab Melo would give just as good or better defense than Okafor has left, and do so on a rookie deal. Spence, one SPECIFIC ideas that many have put out is the Wizards could have bid high to try to get Batum from Portland. He has been Kevin Seraphin's teammate and they are great friends. Other names sound MUCH MORE APPEALING: Ryan Anderson and Ersan Ilyasova are the kind of young guys who will be good for a long time. If the Wizards wanted to add some talent, I was thinking guys with offense and rebounding would be the focus. Also, I think James Singleton is a real good player right now. I would rather see him play at PF than Okafor. I think Cartier Martin deserved some minutes at SF.
I am really discouraged by the two players' salaries and what the implications are: Okafor will start. GMs put pressure on their coaching staff when they bring in veterans who might not be as good as the players on hand.
A few things.ccj. There was no guarantee that Fab Melo would be there when the Zards drafted...in fact I expect him to go late first round. And I'm not convinced Melo would even be the best second round pick for the Zards. Yes, we can HOPE to sign a free agent like Anderson or Ilyasova, but good free agent signings rarely happen, and when they do you usually end up paying max or close to max for a player who doesn't deserve (or earn) it.
My biggest fear with the trade for Okafor/Ariza is that it probably means that the Zards don't resign J. Singleton who I really like. However, there is no way that you can compare Singleton and Okafor as a PF. James is simply too light in the pants to be the kind of tough rebounding, rim protecting big man that Okafor is capable of being.
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
-
- Analyst
- Posts: 3,074
- And1: 145
- Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
Gerald Wallace- I like him but he'll be 31 next season and would have cost a decent amount of money on likley a 3-yr deal. NJ was going to drive up the price to ensure they didn't lose their lottery pick for nothing.
Omer Asik- Not a huge fan. To slow footed IMO to be a good fit here.
Spencer Hawes- Why would he chose to sign here as a backup?
Humphries- I think he's a good player but would require $7-$9 MM annually on a longer term deal
Also if we bought out Lewis, we would have had space for one FA of this caliberm not 2 because the $13 MM would have been dead weight versus the cap....
Omer Asik- Not a huge fan. To slow footed IMO to be a good fit here.
Spencer Hawes- Why would he chose to sign here as a backup?
Humphries- I think he's a good player but would require $7-$9 MM annually on a longer term deal
Also if we bought out Lewis, we would have had space for one FA of this caliberm not 2 because the $13 MM would have been dead weight versus the cap....
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
-
- Forum Mod - Wizards
- Posts: 30,561
- And1: 853
- Joined: May 23, 2002
- Location: Back into the fray!
- Contact:
-
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
DCZards wrote:I don't believe Ted sees this as straying from or delaying his rebuild plans. In fact, he probably sees it as advancing those plans. The idea of having a worse record over the next 2 years with the HOPE (and hope is the key word) of adding pieces along the way may appeal to you, but I think Ted (and most of the Zards fanbase) are tired of losing. I think the Zards ownership believes, and I do as well, think that you can rebuild the team over the next 2-3 years while winning 40 or so games (and making the playoffs), rather than 25 games.

Assuming that Ted/Ernie see our core as being pretty much set (presumably Wall, Serphin, our #3 pick this year, and maybe one of Booker/Vesely/Crawford) then giving those players the chance to learn how to win is the logical next step. Adding tough, veteran players with playoff (and in Ariza's case, championship) experience is a good step in that direction IMO. And if they didn't believe that other perhaps better deals (such as ideas suggested on this board) were or would become avaialble, then I absolutely support them pulling the trigger. Let's see how this thing plays out.
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
- mohammed10
- Assistant Coach
- Posts: 3,857
- And1: 155
- Joined: May 26, 2007
- Location: Playoffs? Playoffs? Yes, playoffs dammit
-
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
DCZards wrote:
A few things.ccj. There was no guarantee that Fab Melo would be there when the Zards drafted...in fact I expect him to go late first round. And I'm not convinced Melo would even be the best second round pick for the Zards. Yes, we can HOPE to sign a free agent like Anderson or Ilyasova, but good free agent signings rarely happen, and when they do you usually end up paying max or close to max for a player who doesn't deserve (or earn) it.
My biggest fear with the trade for Okafor/Ariza is that it probably means that the Zards don't resign J. Singleton who I really like. However, there is no way that you can compare Sngleton and Okafor as a PF. James is simply too light in the pants to be the kind of tough rebounding, rim protecting big man that Okafor is capable of being.
Well, he'll be there at #3, and knowing Ernie...
Where's all those sigs - In Ernie we trust?
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!
'If' - by Rudyard Kipling
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!
'If' - by Rudyard Kipling
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
-
- Analyst
- Posts: 3,074
- And1: 145
- Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
DCZards....I'm hoping Singleton is still in the picture which is why I'm hoping the aggresively shop Booker.
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
-
- RealGM
- Posts: 11,114
- And1: 4,968
- Joined: Jul 16, 2005
- Location: The Streets of DC
-
Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza
tontoz wrote:DCZards wrote:tontoz wrote:
How is making this deal going to lead to a 15 game improvement?
I'm not suggesting that the Okafor/Ariza deal alone will lead to a 15 game improvement. We're also talking about last year's deal for Nene, the development of young players like Wall, Seraphin and Ves, and the addition of a top draft pick...hopefully Beal.
And i believe that would have been enough to get close to 40 wins (assuming a competent 3 was brought in) without blowing $20+ million of next summers cap space.
Ok. So now we're a 45-47 win team.
