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Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza

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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#641 » by tontoz » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:45 pm

mohammed10 wrote:From today's Hollinger chat...


Do you think Washington has a shot at the playoffs with their new potential lineup of Wall-Arisa-MKG-Nene-Okafor?
John Hollinger
(12:08 PM)


A shot? I'll go as far as a shot. I don't think it's a particularly good shot, given that they were 28th in offense last year and managed to punt $20 million in cap without addressing that problem, and that they have a terrible coach, but yes, they have something of a shot. Also, they may draft Beal instead of MKG, which I think would be a terrible mistake, but there you go



Disagree on Whittman and Beal but i understand where he is coming from. Hollinger is a numbers guy and numbers without context can lead to some bad conclusions. I always take that into account when reading Hollinger.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#642 » by verbal8 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:47 pm

jivelikenice wrote:DCZards....I'm hoping Singleton is still in the picture which is why I'm hoping the aggresively shop Booker.


I like what James Singleton showed last season, but why would he come back to the Wizards with the logjam at PF?
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#643 » by TGW » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:49 pm

The Wizards aren't in a position to add "tough, veteran players." They NEED TALENT. Anything else is just extraneous lip service to appease the masses. Adding below average players (and Okafor and Ariza are below average--I dare you to challenge me on that) just for the sake of adding vets is foolish.

James Singleton is better than Okafor, for about 1/10th of the cost. Cartier Martin is almost as good as Ariza, for about 1/10th of the cost. Marginal players like Okafor and Ariza can be added for close to the vet minimum. No need to kill any flexibility for players like them...it's utterly absurd and Nivek is 100% right in mocking our stupid FO on this deal.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#644 » by queridiculo » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:49 pm

Gerald Wallace opted out of a deal that paid him a $10.5 million. At 30 years old he's looking at the final contract of his career and you can expect him to push for a minum of 4 years with a salary close to or over what he is making now.

I'm sorry, but for all the noise about our lack of shooting, all of a sudden Gerald Wallace at $40+ million over the next four years is the holy grail? Ok then...

The deal is far from great, no point in debating that, but I prefer the two years that we're on the hook for on those contracts, with facing the possibility of having one or more of our draft picks pan out and not having the salary cap space the retain them.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#645 » by mohammed10 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:51 pm

tontoz wrote:

Disagree on Whittman and Beal but i understand where he is coming from. Hollinger is a numbers guy and numbers without context can lead to some bad conclusions. I always take that into account when reading Hollinger.


tontoz-

Agree with him on Whitman, but disagree with him on Beal. Personally, I think Beal would be a great fit in the backcourt with Wall. As an aside, I also think Barnes is going to be a better pro than college player, but I digress...
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With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
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And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#646 » by tontoz » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:52 pm

The old saying is that it is much easier to put up numbers on a bad team. I don't think Ariza got the memo. Last year the Hornets averaged 89.6 ppg, 29th in the league. On a team desperate for scoring Ariza could only manage 10.8 ppg in 33 mpg with poor efficiency.

Yeah this guy should be a big help getting wins. :roll:
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#647 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:53 pm

closg00 wrote:From the ESPN board comments on the trade



specs230308
Hornets must of thought they were dreaming when they were able to unload both thoe contracts and keep all their picks.
1 Hour Ago


And don't forget us throwing-in our 46th pick just for extra laughs.

What is it with the Wizards and picks? Rubio in Minnesota could have been a Wizard if they kept the pick. Lawson in Denver was casually cast away, too.

In this draft I won't be at all shocked if #46 sticks with New Orleans. Danny Green was #46. Paul Millsap went #47. This is a draft where Crowder could slip. Denmon, Machado, Kyle O'Quinn, Kevin Jones--all of these players could make a roster and end up spot starters some day.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#648 » by TGW » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:55 pm

tontoz wrote:The old saying is that it is much easier to put up numbers on a bad team. I don't think Ariza got the memo. Last year the Hornets averaged 89.6 ppg, 29th in the league. On a team desperate for scoring Ariza could only manage 10.8 ppg in 33 mpg with poor efficiency.

Yeah this guy should be a big help getting wins. :roll:


:lol:

Don't leave out Okafor either. Neither of these "tough vets" did much to pickup the slack in NO.

But I'm sure since Ernie the genius traded for them, they'll magically play better in Washington.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#649 » by mohammed10 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:57 pm

More Hollinger chat nuggets -

The Dude (Los Angeles)


Shouldn't Stern have blocked the Wizards deal for the good of the League? And yes, I'm still mad about the cancellation of the CP3 trade.
John Hollinger
(12:25 PM)


They were laughing too hard to say anything.
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

'If' - by Rudyard Kipling
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#650 » by dobrojim » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:58 pm

fishercob wrote:The NBA funny. The Wizards made a trade that will make them a better team next season, and most of us hate it.

Just because I don't like the trade, it does not mean agree with a lot of the analysis as to why the trade was bad.

Dat, this notion that Okafor is the third best center on the Wizards is silliness. Nene's ideal position is at the 4. Seraphin -- while me made lovely progress last year -- is still far from a finished product. There's plenty Okafor can't do very well, but he can defend and rebound. The Wizards were 26th in Defensive Rebounding last year -- even with the bump that they got from the Nene/Vale trade. Seraphin is thus far crappy on the defensive boards. This in an area that we need help.

Ariza has regressed so much since his Laker days, but from an age standpoint he should be entering his prime. If he was still playing at his 05-08 level he probably would not have been available. I don't like the player he's been in recent years, for sure.

The Wizards may lose a lot of 83-79 games this year. But they're not going to be fun to play against. No one is going to enjoy banging with Nene, Okafor, Seraphin and company for 48 minutes.

But yeah, I can't talk myself into believing that this was a good trade :-(


left off reading at ~page 12 yesterday...had time to think more overnight.
Think I'll jump in here and then go ahead and read the next 20 pages. :D

Not in love with the trade but I don't totally hate it either.
Still tend to think we might have been better off doing nothing.

Things to like -
We got rid of a guy who was not going to do anything for us. We got
back a couple guys who have a much better chance they could do something
for us. As to whether this stunts the growth/development of our young guys,
I think the one thing Wittman showed was that he was going to operate a
meritocracy and hold people accountable. If these 2 guys play well enough
to get minutes, I doubt it will be because an accountant in the FO told
the coach he had to play them because they had big contracts. Having
no nonsense professionals to go against shouldn't hurt our youngins'. No
one is going to see game minutes without earning them. I don't necessarily
think this means Booker gets traded.

We've lost cap space for 2 years, but the 2 contracts will be expirings
after one year, so it could easily end up not being for 2 years.
Other moves are possible and maybe even likely. How badly
this hurt/helps will be a lot more clear by trade deadline in Mar 2013 or
next year's offseason, assuming nothing changes before then.

Concerns -
If we lose Beal, then I'll be a lot less happy, especially if we end up with
Barnes. I'd have to wonder if drafting Waiters at that point wouldn't be the
better move. That said, we shouldn't discount taking MKG either. It ain't like Ariza
is going to be around forever and MKG is so young that what Fish has said
about Beal and expectations has to apply to MKG as well if he becomes the pick.
Having MKG be exposed to Ariza who has won a ring wouldn't be a awful thing.
Because of that, I have less concern that EG showed his hand. We'll still have
our choice of anyone except AD and one other player. I'm betting CHA does not
take Beal, that they take either TRob (best fit), Drummond (swing for fences) or
Barnes (tarheel). Beal makes the least sense. Who knows what MJ is thinking.

Interesting that Okafor has such a pathetic lifetime winning %. One might also
remember that Nene has the opposite thing going on, a very good lifetime winning %.

Last night on CSN, they reported a poll which said that something like 3-1 in the poll
liked the trade. I trust the board a bit more than a poll that but it's interesting that it's
probably more than 3-1 against the trade here.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#651 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:05 pm

nate33 wrote:
Rafael122 wrote:If we had kept the same team, and only made minor changes and added Beal, we probably wouldn't win 25 games next year. So now hopes would have turned to the draft lottery and see if we have a chance at drafting Nerlens noel. That cycle needs to stop. We haven't won 100 games in 4 seasons and yet people are complaining that this doesn't push us anywhere but mediocrity, as if the alternative (what we've seen the last few years) is so much better. Short term, I'd rather win 40-45 games than to sit here next here debating on who to draft at #4.

Ridiculous. First of all, we would have won more than 25 games this year because the team post McGee trade is better than that. Plus Wall, Vesely and Seraphin are likely to show substantial improvement in the offseason.

Secondly, the idea that Okafor and Ariza will help this team win an additional 15-20 games is outrageous. They won't really help at all because they're not notably better than the people they are replacing.

If the Wizards win 40-45 games, it won't be because of the trade.


I agree with nate. In fact, I expected at least 35 wins this season, but more likely 38-42 and the playoffs. Now, I'm actually somewhat LESS optimistic.

This is a trade that raises expectations and increases agitation among players who suddenly will be competing for less minutes. Guys who had a smile on their face at the end of the season won't even be on the team. Say good bye, James Singleton. Same thing for Martin and Almond (I am sorry, but this move doesn't help at all, Mo). Trevor Booker you can work on your jumper all you want but you aren't starting any more. Randy Wittman, the guys who supported you most have been pushed back in the rotation by an owner who didn't want to pay Rashard Lewis's buyout. Now, you MUST play Ariza and Okafor. You can't put them on the inactive list like you did Andray. Oh, he will be back because the owner doesn't want to pay him to go away.

Guy like Micheal Wilbon and Tony Kornheiser can spout about this adding professionalism to the Wizards but what I think it is going to do is to add dissension. Those two players are marginally better if not worse than guys who closed the season with six straight wins. I am not overvaluing young players--defense was already much improved.

But, I was WRONG about Nene. I was very vocal, very outspoken, and quite wrong about his attitude, demeanor, skill level, and his (short term) effect of the team. He turned out to be great. He's way better than I thought! I enjoyed watching him and Seraphin and Vesely at the end of the season.

Maybe I will eat my words (again) in the future. I hope so.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#652 » by LyricalRico » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:05 pm

TGW wrote:The Wizards aren't in a position to add "tough, veteran players." They NEED TALENT.


Well, Ted and Ernie seem to disagree. They evidently feel that their current group of young players, plus whoever they take at #3, gives them enough talent and now they are trying to fill in around that talent.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#653 » by dobrojim » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:07 pm

Ed Wood wrote:Well because we aren't all tired of silver linings at this point I'll point out that this likely takes the pen out of our hands and safely away from a serious offer for Jeff Green. Sure Trevor Ariza is also not very good in his own way but anything that saves me the anguish to my soul that seeing a bunch of awful posts reminding us that Green was so very good at Georgetown and the ubiquitous "oh so you fancy yourself smarter than a GM do you?" posts can't be all bad.


one of the reasons I read this board

now when is Doc going to chime in?
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#654 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:10 pm

Higga wrote:Yeah I'm with Raf. When we were one and done every year I admit I would always complain about being sick of it and would rather suck to rebuild with high lotto picks. Well now I'm sick of losing. I at least want to play some meaningful games late in the year. And I think experiencing the playoffs would be a good thing for Wall. If we don't try to be more competitive, he's going to be unhappy and won't develop to his full potential.


Personally, I think Wall better get a jump shot. I don't care if he is unhappy and I think he is one reason the team struggled as much under Flip. John Wall is not that good. Until he can make a three and until most PGs do not match up pretty evenly with him I will say that.

Nobody is causing Wall to go a whole season and only connect on 3 three point shots.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#655 » by AWIZZINGBULLET » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:10 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
AWIZZINGBULLET wrote:
willbcocks wrote:Spence: Why don't we just trade 4 future picks and this year's #3 for Amare?

It's impossible to provide precise details of who will be available and where we will be picking, but unless we have exact details, we couldn't possibly assume something better than Amare, who we know will at least score 15 points and only costs 20 million per year.

You are taking this argument about predicting the future to unreasonable extremes. It is not unreasonable to suppose that the Wizards could have landed significantly better value over the next two years in other trades--in fact I don't think anyone is even disputing that. I think those who are defending the trade tend to be saying, well, the value's not great, but it improves the team for two years, which will help our picks develop, and we can then sign new guys to replace these ones.

Why are you harping on this?


Not quite. Contracts being left out, the value is good. It's more like the trade improves the team this year, makes it more competitive and gives the Wizards a real chance at positioning themselves to make the playoffs this season and down the road. This upcoming season's as good as any season to begin at taking that next step. And no I don't think the addition of Ariza and Okafor helps Vesely develop.


The Wizards need to trade Booker or Vesely or Seraphin. One of them needs to be traded, most likely Booker.

Seeing this post made me think Vesely is a tradeable commodity. I know EG just drafted him, and I like him, but he's not going to play at all now with this roster.


I still contend that Grunfeld messed up in drafting Vesely in the first place. Vesely and Crawford are the two Wizards that make the most sense moving. Thing is I think Grunfeld saves face and keeps Vesely onboard.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#656 » by MDStar » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:13 pm

I've read several pages that we've ruined our chance at other BOYD deals. Is that really true? For this year, the answer is yes. But for next, we are in the exact same position that we are now as, Ariza and Oak will both be expiring deals the year after. So essentially, the trade makes us stand pat for this year, which from my understanding most on this board would have preferred us to do.

I guess I just don't understand how on one had a person can advocate for signing a player like Danny Green at 6mil per for 4-5 years but are freaking out at paying Ariza 15 mil over 2. It's 2 years, with a chance to only be one. Also, this whole the organization believes we're in win now mode. How is that remotely true? We had one of the youngest rosters in the entire league last year and not one of those players is gone yet. Wall, Vesely, Booker, Seraphin, Crawford, Singleton, all still on the roster, fighting for playing time, fighting to get better. That doe'st even include Beal, Barnes or MKG from this upcoming draft.

Unlike most, I don't view Ariza and Oak as terrible players. Oak will give you about 10pts, 9rebs, 1.5blks and a PER around 15. Not superstar numbers but not close to being a horrible player. Same goes for Ariza, who is a good defender, good finisher and has an all-around game with averages of 5rebs, 3asts and about 2stls per. We got them for nothing but the cap space that belonged to Rashard Lewis this year. And then they become expiring the year after.

Lastly, the only thing I can really understand a person being pissed about is not having full cap space next off-season. Ok. I get it. That's really the one negative truth of this trade, especially with most advocating we do nothing this off-season with the space anyway. Everything else is just basics, we had cap space to be able to facilitate a move to make us better. The Wizards front office decided that this was one of those deals.

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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#657 » by tontoz » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:13 pm

TGW wrote:
tontoz wrote:The old saying is that it is much easier to put up numbers on a bad team. I don't think Ariza got the memo. Last year the Hornets averaged 89.6 ppg, 29th in the league. On a team desperate for scoring Ariza could only manage 10.8 ppg in 33 mpg with poor efficiency.

Yeah this guy should be a big help getting wins. :roll:


:lol:

Don't leave out Okafor either. Neither of these "tough vets" did much to pickup the slack in NO.

But I'm sure since Ernie the genius traded for them, they'll magically play better in Washington.




Okafor is at least a competent big man. Unfortunately we don't really need him and he is way overpaid. This deal would be easier to swallaw if Nene wasn't here.

Ariza just sucks.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#658 » by dobrojim » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:18 pm

closg00 wrote:Why can't trade supporters just admit that the deal was done so-that Ted would-not have to pay-out for Shard w/o getting something,that's the bottom-line here, everything else is just smoke and mirrors and PR spin. The trade was not done with the long-term interest of the team in-mind. I still have a glimmer of hope that something is going to happen on draft-night to make more basketball sense for the organization.



I think that's true but I don't think it can't also be true that it's good mgmt
to not pay a lot for nothing. The 2 factors are not mutually exclusive of each
other.

If Okafor and Ariza both suck horribly, then the scales shift against the trade.
If they at least give us something either on court, in practice or as expirings
themselves, then it's really not the clusterfvk everyone is bitching about.

Finally, I'm quite surprise at you closg00 to hear you say you have a glimmer of
hope about anything having to do with the Wizards. I feel much better now. :D
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#659 » by AWIZZINGBULLET » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:18 pm

tontoz wrote:
TGW wrote:
tontoz wrote:The old saying is that it is much easier to put up numbers on a bad team. I don't think Ariza got the memo. Last year the Hornets averaged 89.6 ppg, 29th in the league. On a team desperate for scoring Ariza could only manage 10.8 ppg in 33 mpg with poor efficiency.

Yeah this guy should be a big help getting wins. :roll:


:lol:

Don't leave out Okafor either. Neither of these "tough vets" did much to pickup the slack in NO.

But I'm sure since Ernie the genius traded for them, they'll magically play better in Washington.




Okafor is at least a competent big man. Unfortunately we don't really need him and he is way overpaid. This deal would be easier to swallaw if Nene wasn't here.

Ariza just sucks.


Do you really believe Ariza has nothing to offer?
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza 

Post#660 » by FAH1223 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:19 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
Higga wrote:Yeah I'm with Raf. When we were one and done every year I admit I would always complain about being sick of it and would rather suck to rebuild with high lotto picks. Well now I'm sick of losing. I at least want to play some meaningful games late in the year. And I think experiencing the playoffs would be a good thing for Wall. If we don't try to be more competitive, he's going to be unhappy and won't develop to his full potential.


Personally, I think Wall better get a jump shot. I don't care if he is unhappy and I think he is one reason the team struggled as much under Flip. John Wall is not that good. Until he can make a three and until must PGs match up pretty evenly with him I will say that.

Nobody is causing Wall to go a whole season and only connect on 3 three point shots.


I hope Wall realizes that. He can't pout if he knows he needs to improve dramatically for WAS to be a threat in the East.
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