Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza

[Ruzious]

For a 'defensive player", Okafor's got some serious defensive problems. http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/6/21 ... -breakdown

Okafor was brought in because of his rebounding ability, size, and experience, but most importantly his rebounding abiity. His size allows him to play effective defense even if he's not an imposing, defensive enforcer.

The evidence in the link points in the direction of him NOT being an effective defensive player. If we just needed rebounding, we could have just re-signed James Singleton. And at age 30, it's not likely he's going to add the quickness he'd need to be a decent picknroll defender.

[tontoz]

Do you really believe Ariza has nothing to offer?

Sure he has something to offer just like Chris Singleton has something to offer. They can both play D but are awful offensively. We need Ariza about as much as we need another big who can't rebound.

What Ariza brings that I think you're underestimating is his experience, athleticism, and effort. I'm certain there's something behind your comment about Okafor being unable to rebound so if you wil, explain.

It has nothing to do with Okafor, it has to do with bringing in a high priced guy who doesn't fill a gaping hole on the roster.

If the Wizards paid 7 million/yr for a big man who couldn't rebound that would make as much sense as bringing in Ariza.

[dobrojim]

[snip]

We had two undresized Jeff Green PFs in Book and Ves, we added a true center. They're not the same just because they play the same position.

And while we're over-rating our own players, please remember that we were the second worst team in the league last year. These guys got potential, and they're gonna need to reach a decent amount of it if they're gonna stick in the league.

While we're talking about building the OKC way, let me remind you that the past 30 NBA champions or so were not built like that. They're built with a couple stars (hopefully for us Wall & #3), and a bunch of VETERAN role players. We can still go out and get those VETERAN ROLE PLAYERS in two years when Wall and #3 are ready. For now, we wont completely suck.

While I do tend to be guilty of over-rating our own players, I think I have
a good idea on their size. Ves has some length. He is not undersized. Bulk?
Not now/yet. But he's plenty long enough.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I believe drafting Fab Melo would give just as good or better defense than Okafor has left, and do so on a rookie deal. Spence, one SPECIFIC ideas that many have put out is the Wizards could have bid high to try to get Batum from Portland. He has been Kevin Seraphin's teammate and they are great friends. Other names sound MUCH MORE APPEALING: Ryan Anderson and Ersan Ilyasova are the kind of young guys who will be good for a long time. If the Wizards wanted to add some talent, I was thinking guys with offense and rebounding would be the focus. Also, I think James Singleton is a real good player right now. I would rather see him play at PF than Okafor. I think Cartier Martin deserved some minutes at SF.

I am really discouraged by the two players' salaries and what the implications are: Okafor will start. GMs put pressure on their coaching staff when they bring in veterans who might not be as good as the players on hand.

A few things.ccj. There was no guarantee that Fab Melo would be there when the Zards drafted...in fact I expect him to go late first round. And I'm not convinced Melo would even be the best second round pick for the Zards. Yes, we can HOPE to sign a free agent like Anderson or Ilyasova, but good free agent signings rarely happen, and when they do you usually end up paying max or close to max for a player who doesn't deserve (or earn) it.

My biggest fear with the trade for Okafor/Ariza is that it probably means that the Zards don't resign J. Singleton who I really like. However, there is no way that you can compare Singleton and Okafor as a PF. James is simply too light in the pants to be the kind of tough rebounding, rim protecting big man that Okafor is capable of being.

I never wanted Melo as the pick, but do believe he is a good defender.

Okafor can't guard Dirk on the perimeter like James Singleton. Okafor cannot step out and consistently hit a jumper like Singleton. Last season with the Wizards, James scored more, rebounded better, and even blocks shots at a higher rate than Okafor did with the Hornets.

I really don't understand the need for Okafor and I see no way James Singleton is resigned, DCZ.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Gerald Wallace- I like him but he'll be 31 next season and would have cost a decent amount of money on likley a 3-yr deal. NJ was going to drive up the price to ensure they didn't lose their lottery pick for nothing.

Omer Asik- Not a huge fan. To slow footed IMO to be a good fit here.

Spencer Hawes- Why would he chose to sign here as a backup?

Humphries- I think he's a good player but would require $7-$9 MM annually on a longer term deal

Also if we bought out Lewis, we would have had space for one FA of this caliberm not 2 because the $13 MM would have been dead weight versus the cap....

Same reason you think Okafor will be content be traded here to be Seraphin's backup?

jivelikenice, I just wanted to put some alternatives out there. Not saying these would be what I would have done. Personally, I would have bid high on Batum and left it at that.

I would have traded for Kevin Martin and Kyle Lowry, even if I had to swap down picks because that would have helped Wall more. Having a scoring guard and a competent veteran PG on the roster is what would have balanced the team. Let Nene be the man in the frontcourt and add some shooters and guys who get to the line.

That is what i would have done.

[tontoz]

Ariza is actually completely different the Singleton. Ariza can finish at the rim, but can't make a jumper. Singleton can't finsh, but can make long range jumpers. If you could friggin combine them, you'd have a solid 3 man :/

Both guys suck on offense they just suck in different ways.

[nuposse04]

Ariza is actually completely different the Singleton. Ariza can finish at the rim, but can't make a jumper. Singleton can't finsh, but can make long range jumpers. If you could friggin combine them, you'd have a solid 3 man :/

Both guys suck on offense they just suck in different ways.

They suck because they are only useful in very specific scenarios. Singleton Was a solid 3 point shooter for us. He REALLY needs to become a better finisher though. We still have hopes for Singleton to become a decent back up. Ariza's ship has sailed though :/

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Ilyasova and Anderson are going to demand somewhere between $8 and $11 million. One, I don't think they are worth that kind of contractual commitment and two, the teams they are presently on have every incentive to keep them in the fold.

Batum is just as much of a pipe dream. The Blazers just gutted their roster in an effort to rebuild, and it's quite obvious that Batum and Aldridge are their center pieces.

Now I will give you that there appears to be a logjam at the forward positions, but you're absolutely kidding yourself if you think the Wizards are going to compromise the long term outlook of their team by letting their young players rot on the bench.

Based on everything we've heard and seen the Wizards organization is just as enthusiastic about Kevin's development as the fans. I really don't understand what would lead so many of you to believe that those guys aren't going to get their fair share of minutes.

The truth matter is that neither Singleton, nor Vesely, Booker or Seraphin have done enough in this league to earn heavy starters minutes. It's going to be up to them to earn those minutes. Simply playing them for the sake of giving them minutes isn't going to make this team get better any sooner.

How much better has Okafor been than Booker or Seraphin, and what has Okafor done to justify his salary and years of starting? I liked him at U Conn and even thought he should be the first pick ahead of Dwight Howard. How wrong I was! Emeka Okafor is woeful on offense and he's not an elite defender, either. How does Okafor demonstrate he clearly is deserving of minutes ahead of what Kevin did last season. Seraphin's double double streak is something Okafor can't match right now IMO. Booker's explosive leaping and energy is something a guy with a bad back can't do. Vesely can also outrun and out dunk Okafor. Jan even hit the boards well at the end of the season.

Okafor is not someone I see being more deserving, hermitkid, especially at his salary.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

The Wizards aren't in a position to add "tough, veteran players." They NEED TALENT. Anything else is just extraneous lip service to appease the masses. Adding below average players (and Okafor and Ariza are below average--I dare you to challenge me on that) just for the sake of adding vets is foolish.

James Singleton is better than Okafor, for about 1/10th of the cost. Cartier Martin is almost as good as Ariza, for about 1/10th of the cost. Marginal players like Okafor and Ariza can be added for close to the vet minimum. No need to kill any flexibility for players like them...it's utterly absurd and Nivek is 100% right in mocking our stupid FO on this deal.

More ideas about who is better and costs less: Steve Novak can make threes and help teams win. Surround him with length and speedy players and his porous defense isn't as much of a liability. The Wizards could have gone and added Jeremy Lin and Steve Novak more cheaply than Ariza and Okafor.

[sashae]

Your defense is going to be outstanding... you've now got options in trades and are putting competent, defensive minded vets to set examples and build the right culture. the second round pick was a bit much, but I think you guys improved, and have really set the table for further improvement in the short term if your FO is smart with draft/trades this season.

Are you familiar with Ernie Grunfeld?

[tontoz]

For a 'defensive player", Okafor's got some serious defensive problems. http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/6/21 ... -breakdown

And I thought my opinion of the trade couldn't get any lower. Looks like i stand corrected.

[montestewart]

I'm still working through my thoughts on this trade, so I'm going to open up a can of worms here. The Gilbert Arenas trade was for a year and a half of useless Shard and now Okafor and Ariza. Given that the Wizards need a scoring and shooting veteran guard....

Hey, I was thinking along somewhat similar lines (maybe this is discussed later in this thread, still going through it). I kept reading nate33 and others asserting that the Wizards were now on the hook for $30 million more in salary, and was nagged with, "$30 million. $30 million. Where have I heard that figure before. Think, man, think!" Then I remembered that was the amount the Wizards saved by trading Arenas for Lewis (assuming a Lewis buyout).

Here's my theory. Leonsis and EG felt increasingly guilty for the way they treated Arenas, and were concerned about how that treatment of Arenas reflected on them among players around the league. To atone for their wrongs, they took on $30 million in salary for players that were clearly redundant, overpaid, on the decline, available more cheaply through the draft or free agency, and in no way figured into the team's future. Sort of an NBA equivalent to publicly flogging yourself.

Soooooooo...it's all Arenas' fault.

[Spence]

I don't know why everyone is seeing the presence of Ariza as meaning that MKG is no longer on the table. Ariza isn't a guy that you absolutely have to start. You can still take MKG and start him while using Ariza as a 6th man. Then use some combination of Okafor/Booker/Vesely/Singleton/Crawford to acquire a starting SG. Still lots of options IMO, so let's see how it plays out.

Concur. Ariza is good as a defensive specialist, but he's not good enough to abandon MKG if that's the guy the team wants. Originally I thought this trade meant MKG was out, but there really isn't any reason that must be the case.

[Spence]

For a 'defensive player", Okafor's got some serious defensive problems. http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/6/21 ... -breakdown

He struggles with Dwight Howard and Steve Nash? He's got to be the only player in the league with that issue!

[The Consiglieri]

I was making the comparison because it's an all in type move for depth. We didn't give up a top 5 pick but we gave away all our financial flexibility for the next two seasons to add guys who aren't real difference makers.

Who did you think the Wizards could get in the next two years that would be real difference makers? Okafor at least provides a need on the rebounding side. People are acting like he is old and sucks. He is only 29. Before he was injured last year, he was averaging a double double.

I'm still teetering on the edge of slightly disappointed (would have been nice to get that lottery pick) but I'm with you, I'm really not sure who and what all this salary cap flexibility was going to buy us.

For all intends and purposes Washington simply pushed Lewis contract out by a year and managed to add two veteran NBA players in exchange.

For all the bitching and moaning, where are all these instant contender scenarios that we're missing out on now?

There are none, that's not the point, the point is, the team was still a year away from contending for an 8 slot playoff run a la '97, and needed to suck it up, deal, and grow, or if forced to take on this hideous pair of contracts, squeeze the Hornets for what they were supposedly offering everyone else. The only thing you don't do, is exactly what we did, trading for two horrible contracts that do little of note to improvement us, nothing to help the youth movement, and likely will cause us to complete arse up the draft by forcing a need pick, rather than a best available talent pick because, you got it, the greatness of Trevor Ariza, and Emeka Okafor demands this. Yeah? Why? Can you think of anything as incomprehensibly stupid as determining what we'll do with the highest pick we'll have for years, in a solidly talented draft, based upon the presence of two average bodies that will be gone in either 9-21 months?

And of course, we couldn't even peel the 10th pick off them, as someone else mentioned, we basically were their rent boy, offering up everything, and giving it away as a freebie. Real nice. Not even getting the 10th pick in a draft featuring the most depth in a decade is inexplicable and criminal. Did Leonsis want to not pay Lewis that badly or were we just that freaking stupid? Probably the latter, as I posted at another site, after watching 25 years of this garbage, after blowing draft after draft, and getting bent over in virtually every trade we've ever executed I think I've given enough. I don't know if I have anymore of my life and passion to give to a team that just kicks me in the nuts every season and every offseason like it's some bizarre gnostic chrisian religious ritual. Not done yet, but wish I was....

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I've read several pages that we've ruined our chance at other BOYD deals. Is that really true? For this year, the answer is yes. But for next, we are in the exact same position that we are now as, Ariza and Oak will both be expiring deals the year after. So essentially, the trade makes us stand pat for this year, which from my understanding most on this board would have preferred us to do.

I guess I just don't understand how on one had a person can advocate for signing a player like Danny Green at 6mil per for 4-5 years but are freaking out at paying Ariza 15 mil over 2. It's 2 years, with a chance to only be one. Also, this whole the organization believes we're in win now mode. How is that remotely true? We had one of the youngest rosters in the entire league last year and not one of those players is gone yet. Wall, Vesely, Booker, Seraphin, Crawford, Singleton, all still on the roster, fighting for playing time, fighting to get better. That doe'st even include Beal, Barnes or MKG from this upcoming draft.

Unlike most, I don't view Ariza and Oak as terrible players. Oak will give you about 10pts, 9rebs, 1.5blks and a PER around 15. Not superstar numbers but not close to being a horrible player. Same goes for Ariza, who is a good defender, good finisher and has an all-around game with averages of 5rebs, 3asts and about 2stls per. We got them for nothing but the cap space that belonged to Rashard Lewis this year. And then they become expiring the year after.

Lastly, the only thing I can really understand a person being pissed about is not having full cap space next off-season. Ok. I get it. That's really the one negative truth of this trade, especially with most advocating we do nothing this off-season with the space anyway. Everything else is just basics, we had cap space to be able to facilitate a move to make us better. The Wizards front office decided that this was one of those deals.

No it's not a home run but i'd give it a single in the gap, and with good base running could turn into a sliding double.

MDStar, let me switch hats and go from hater to optimist. If Ariza's passing and steals are paired with good three point shooting he is the wild card that can make this a good deal.

If Ariza goes back to the player he was early in his career this will work. I liked him when he was with the Knicks as a rookie. He and Mike Sweetney were both promising young players back then, and I recall posting about acquiring both guys. The next season, Ariza barely played and was traded. I like him at the earliest point of his career, way before he succeeded with the Lakers. It's not like Ariza can't play. He just hasn't played very well in a while.

Let's hope playing at a faster tempo, running alongside Wall helps revive his career. Trevor's steals and assists are things that can add to his value a lot, even if he is not a consistent shooter or scorer. This system could be better for him.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

What does it matter if Okafor's feelings get hurt if he's benched? I've said it before I'll say it again, I truly belive Randy will play the best player. The young guys played hard for him because at least he was honest with him. As long as our good young players feel threatened by the competition they will drive themselves to compete harder...that is the best thing I can take away from this mess. That and we're left with two scenarios that should occur:

Either flip Okafor for a wing prospect OR package Booker+Ariza for a wing prospect. I consider this situation to salvageable if one of those occur.

Kevin Martin? If he Wizards flipped Okafor for Martin that would change everything. I can accept that kind of mediocrity.

[dobrojim]

[snip]

This is a trade that raises expectations and increases agitation among players who suddenly will be competing for less minutes. Guys who had a smile on their face at the end of the season won't even be on the team. Say good bye, James Singleton. Same thing for Martin and Almond (I am sorry, but this move doesn't help at all, Mo). Trevor Booker you can work on your jumper all you want but you aren't starting any more. Randy Wittman, the guys who supported you most have been pushed back in the rotation by an owner who didn't want to pay Rashard Lewis's buyout. Now, you MUST play Ariza and Okafor. You can't put them on the inactive list like you did Andray. Oh, he will be back because the owner doesn't want to pay him to go away.

Guy like Micheal Wilbon and Tony Kornheiser can spout about this adding professionalism to the Wizards but what I think it is going to do is to add dissension. Those two players are marginally better if not worse than guys who closed the season with six straight wins. I am not overvaluing young players--defense was already much improved.

But, I was WRONG about Nene. I was very vocal, very outspoken, and quite wrong about his attitude, demeanor, skill level, and his (short term) effect of the team. He turned out to be great. He's way better than I thought! I enjoyed watching him and Seraphin and Vesely at the end of the season.

Maybe I will eat my words (again) in the future. I hope so.

I think you're being a bit too fatalistic here. The players who play the best
will be the players who play the most. I really like Cartier Martin and James
Singleton. Singleton may choose not to come back. We'll see. I think he's underrated
around the league but it possible he's over-rated on this board. It wouldn't be the
first time. Martin might make the team even with Ariza and our draft picks who
both will possibly be 2/3s.

[The Consiglieri]

Honestly at the end of the day, do we or should we care that we helped NOLA or did them a huge favor? Neither the Wizards or the Hornets are going to win an NBA Championship within the next 5-10 years. It's not like this trade propelled the Hornets to top 5 in the NBA.

That's not the point, the point is that we took on their two poison pills, two massive, crippling issues that were afflictions for their team, and they gave us NOTHING for it. NOTHING.

Oh sure, you can say, yes we did, we got a mediocre big, and a sub mediocre 3, but that's not something, that's a net negative, their contracts and presence are a sag on the team, not an asset, a massive net negative.

If you take on someone's poison pill you're supposed to get something for you trouble. All we got was the knowledge that we didnt pay Rashard Lewis for not playing for us. In other words, nothing of value, just philosophical peace of mind for cheap skates, and a net negative for the youth movement and development of our kids and massive disruption of team chemistry.

Nearly as bad, it's already pretty clear that the presence of two scrubs that will be gone in less than 2 years will have a major impact on who we take at slot 3, the 2nd most valuable draft pick we'll have between 2002 and 2016 or later and the 2nd most valuable asset for our rebuild. Nice to know the head honchos are not only stupid enough to make this trade, they're even tupid enough to let it dictate the decision we make with the last immnsely valuable asset we have to build with going forward. Hell, now they're saying Barnes is in play. We truly are Clippers East, unfortunately, we're much, much worse these days, as even the Clippers eventually figured it out. Welcome to Milwaukee Buckland folks, I hope we enjoy the ride.

Pure idiocy.

[dobrojim]

Well the one good thing I can say about Wittman is that he'll play the best player regardless of age or contract.

+1