James Harden is a superstar

[brownbobcat]

It implies that there are no players in the league who are valued more highly, which is obviously asinine.

No, no it doesn't. There's a little thing called the salary cap.

Anthony Davis' first year salary will be $0.5 mil more than the #2 pick, does that mean he's only valued marginally more? That is obviously asinine.

[tsherkin]

No, no it doesn't. There's a little thing called the salary cap.

That's the point, though.

Harden is a 30-ish mpg bench player. He's a really, really good one, but he's playing 6th man minutes (and was, in fact, the 6MOY). That's not a max player, whether that's the same value as a player with longer tenure or not.

[Doormatt]

max money does not equate him to those players, it equates him to guys like love, bynum, aldridge, etc. who have also received the maximum.

Right, it relates him to those players AS WELL, but not solely. It implies that there are no players in the league who are valued more highly, which is obviously asinine. Yes, there are financial differences between a max contract for him and a max contract for a guy who has been grandfathered in from a previous CBA or has longer tenure, etc, but giving him the max available cash is not a sensible plan.

yes it is because thats how much hes worth. you seem to have the idea that because its "max money" that therefore he is the same as other max money players like lebron and howard. when in fact, he will not be making that much money. i mean, he'll be making about as much as bynum, and youre going to tell me hes not worth that but bynum is? thats ridiculous.

also it does not imply that at all. it implies that hes worth that much money. stop relating it to other players who make more than him.

[brownbobcat]

That's the point, though.

Harden is a 30-ish mpg bench player. He's a really, really good one, but he's playing 6th man minutes (and was, in fact, the 6MOY). That's not a max player, whether that's the same value as a player with longer tenure or not.

He's 22 and just finished his 3rd season, you're acting like that's his ceiling. I think he's got the potential to be better than Ginobili, and that's probably enough to get the max offer from multiple teams.

[Kabookalu]

That's the point, though.

Harden is a 30-ish mpg bench player. He's a really, really good one, but he's playing 6th man minutes (and was, in fact, the 6MOY). That's not a max player, whether that's the same value as a player with longer tenure or not.

He's 22 and just finished his 3rd season, you're acting like that's his ceiling. I think he's got the potential to be better than Ginobili, and that's probably enough to get the max offer from multiple teams.

I think it would be quite foolish to offer a player the max based on the possibility that they deserve it later on in the future.

[CKRT]

I see a lot of people saying he "didn't show up" for the finals, but he was getting doubled once he had the ball and had a third guy shadowing him.

[ahonui06]

I see a lot of people saying he "didn't show up" for the finals, but he was getting doubled once he had the ball and had a third guy shadowing him.

No. He just played awful. He's not as good as everyone thought.

[lukekarts]

I don't recall a Ginobili series that bad.

On the subject of max or not, I don't think he can possibly deserve a max contract. It's not a case of whether he's as good as other guys getting that money, either. It's whether a team wants between 25-30% of their money going to James Harden over the next 4 years. Unless you've already got somebody considerably better than him, you've got no hope.

[brownbobcat]

I think it would be quite foolish to offer a player the max based on the possibility that they deserve it later on in the future.

Maybe, but it happens all the time. Players are eligible for extensions after their 3rd season, do you really think that's their peak? I'm not saying Harden WILL get the max, he may opt to secure an extension now for a little less (similar to Westbrook). Make him an UFA today, though, and I'm sure he would get the max from somebody.

[brownbobcat]

I don't recall a Ginobili series that bad.

'02/'03, Manu's rookie year, but 2 years older than Harden
PHX (1st round) - 30 MPG/7.7 PPG/3.8 APG/3.8 RPG/28% FG
NJN (Finals) - 29 MPG/8.7 PPG/2 APG/4.5 RPG/35% FG

On the subject of max or not, I don't think he can possibly deserve a max contract. It's not a case of whether he's as good as other guys getting that money, either. It's whether a team wants between 25-30% of their money going to James Harden over the next 4 years. Unless you've already got somebody considerably better than him, you've got no hope.

No hope of getting into the Finals? Probably. But for all the other 20-25 teams out there without a LeBron/Durant/Howard, they'll settle for a playoff run. Plus, he wouldn't be paid 25-30% of team salary, but 25% of the CAP. Assuming you stay just under the luxury tax threshold, that's roughly 20% of team salary.

[MisterWestside]

James Harden choked under Finals pressure. He ran away from the ball and didn't want to win. We all know that if he can shred any defense he wants to (see games he played in earlier rounds) so there's no reason why he couldn't shred the Heat. He's gutless, heartless, and a quitter. If he wanted to win, he would have.

[Vinsanity420]

He's gutless, heartless, and a quitter. If he wanted to win, he would have.

Do you need someone to go Mark Cuban on you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv2jqFd2 ... m70nermp1A

[MisterWestside]

He's gutless, heartless, and a quitter. If he wanted to win, he would have.

Do you need someone to go Mark Cuban on you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv2jqFd2 ... m70nermp1A

Why do you think I made that post

[Dr Positivity]

As mentioned, Harden doesn't have to be LBJ/Durant to be a max player, he has to be on the Bosh, Melo, Bynum, Westbrook, etc. level, and I believe his skillset and stats back that up. If you compare him to players who are really on the max money doesn't deserve it tier, like say Rudy Gay, it's not even close. Harden's overall dribble drive, passing, shooting game is exactly what you want out of a central perimeter player, while a guy like Gay looks like he should be imposing physically and skill, but ends up just being a 15 foot shooter

[Doctor MJ]

Jumping in here:

Harden's disappearance in the finals is cause for concern on a variety of levels

The most important of which, to my mind, is that it suggests that OKC's current approach is a bit of fools gold when faced against the very best of opponents. It's one series, so perhaps it's just a small sample size issue, but one has to question in earnest now the cautious approach of Brooks to essentially keep the status quo due to it being "good enough" and not causing ego disputes (because Harden's a nice guy).

OKC now has basically one season to get it right, during which I'd figure they'd have to try new approaches, and if they experience issues along the way, it's hard to imagine them really keeping everyone happy enough to keep them. It's one thing to sell yourself at a discount to the '60s Celtics, but if the team in question is just another contender, and the money difference is huge, it would take a very strange 23 year old to remain loyal.

[Dr Positivity]

I think OKC would be crazy to let Harden go instead of Ibaka. The strategy with a maxed out Durant, Westbrook, Harden is "ok, everyone else plays defense, shoots and rebounds" like Miami's big 3 supporting cast this year, or the Spurs every year, still seems likely to succeed to me. They can still play great D without Ibaka, with a 3 mil positional defender in his place IMO. It's not like OKC's defense right now is dominant with Ibaka anyways, I can't imagine it's that hard to match 2012 OKC defense. I think Ibaka's the type of player that's bound to be overrated, because positional D is underrated compared to blocked shots numbers, plus I think Ibaka leaving his position a lot leaves them vulnerable to rebounds.

[colts18]

Some numbers to ponder:
Thunders starting lineup: 102 O Rating
Starters+Harden-Thabo: 114 O Rating

Durant/Westbrook together on the court have a 110.7 O Rating
Durant/Westbrook plus Harden: 117.5 O Rating
Durant/Westbrook no Harden: 103.4 O Rating

[ardee]

NOW this thread is going to become interesting!

[colts18]

With Durant on the bench, Harden averaged 31-6-5, .687 TS% Thats superstar production.

[Mavericksfan]

Can we please stop overrating Harden's +/- numbers. Of course the offense is going to be much better when Harden is replacing Thabo and Collison is replacing Perkins/Ibaka.

And if you think Harden will approach anywhere near those heavily adjusted numbers for this season you're crazy. There's a big difference between playing on a team like the Thunder and playing next to Houston's frontcourt.