Deng to GS PG.13 / PG.43 Bulls Say Otherwise

[nomorezorro]

Rose's injury changed the philosophy, IMO.

If we win a ring or get to the finals you probably consider paying the tax. If your best player tears his ACL and the next two available players shrink in the playoffs without him, you probably don't. At least, I wouldn't either

i don't know, isn't it a little disheartening that jerry isn't willing to dip a toe in the tax waters to preserve the team as-is to see how rose's recovery pans out? this year doesn't count for the repeater tax, right?

you'd still retain the option to dismantle the team if rose has taken a step back or if this roster can't prove to be a Legit Contender after 2013-14 without having the harshest of penalties imposed on you, which seems reasonable for a team that's arguably been the best in the league over the past two years

[make a move]

HomoSapien you win the post of the day with this gem:

"Rose's injury changed the philosophy, IMO. If we win a ring or get to the finals you probably consider paying the tax. If your best player tears his ACL and the next two available players shrink in the playoffs without him, you probably don't."

[GloriaJames]

See, I just don't see why people think he's underperforming. His PER, TS% and per 36 numbers have stayed fairly consistent since his time with Utah. When you consider that our current system is less conducive to Boozer being effective on offense (no big man drawing out defense, no Sloan, D Will, etc), we're getting exactly what we should have expected, and what Reinsdorf paid for. His defense is also improved as a Bull (the difference between last season and this season is definitely noticeable), though still not exactly good.
His postseason production has not been outstanding, that's for sure, but consider that he played all of the 2011 playoffs injured, and the 2012 playoffs were a lose cause anyway, so who cares?

I'm sorry that Boozer is not everything you dreamed he was, but he's not underperforming by any means.

[nomorezorro]

Just out of curiosity, how many of you would pay tax this offseason if it were your team?

i think last year's team is about as good as you can reasonably expect a team to be.

i think, with that in mind, it makes sense to preserve that roster as long as possible until it's definitively proven one way or another that its incapable of winning a championship.

i think, considering the vast profitability of the bulls and the fact that you probably wouldn't be in the neighborhood of the tax after this roster is dismantled for at least another...half a decade? (and that's only if everything goes right in a retooling) it's worth taking the plunge for at least a year or two to wait and see

i am, of course, a basketball fan and not a Really Rich Person, so.

[bullsnewdynasty]

Why the hell would the Bulls want Biedrins if they're trying to save money? Bulls would be better off trading for Richard Jefferson, who they could actually use as a starting SF, in the event of a Golden State trade.

Don't want either and I don't want to trade Deng for the 7th pick.

Me neither. But if we did made a trade, I don't want a worthless $9 mil player as a 3rd string center.

[Red Larrivee]

In 2006, the Bulls signed Ben Wallace to a $60M deal. A few days later, they traded Tyson Chandler for an expiring contract. I was rather vocal about this bait and switch move by the Bulls to not take on any salary. I was told that PJ Brown was a valuable expiring. During that season and directly afterwards, the Bulls had chances to deal PJ Brown and other assets for Gasol but did not. It was clearly about avoiding luxury tax.

But don't you think trading a 23-year-old Tyson Chandler (who had a good season the year before) is much different than trading a 27-year-old Luol Deng entering his 9th season in the league?

I acknowledge that dealing Deng is a risk, but it seems some are trying to plant this visual that dealing Deng can result in an Elton Brand or Tyson Chandler like rise in production, despite Deng clearly peaking already.

I agree though that the Bulls sold extremely low on Chandler and paid for it. But I don't think a deal like say Evans/#5 for Deng/Gibson is selling low.

[theanimal23]

IIRC Chandler had a horrendous season prior to being traded.

[Red Larrivee]

Just out of curiosity, how many of you would pay tax this offseason if it were your team?

Let's put it this way. If the Bulls decide to keep Asik at a Mid-Level salary and give Taj 6-7M, as well as keeping the rest of the players on the team in tact, you're looking at paying Rose/Deng/Boozer/Noah/Gibson/Asik/Butler around $70M. That's an average of $10M per player. Factor in other draft picks, and the Bulls surely will be over the tax.

Why pay the tax next year? We're not contending. The season after that? Rose could be at full strength, but the Bulls will have older parts and still won't have the flexibility or salary to acquire better offensive options.

The Bulls have done a great job at finding good players, but they haven't managed the cap well when you consider all the deals. Rose's ACL is forcing them to manage the cap better with the next retool, and they're going to have to start now.

IIRC Chandler had a horrendous season prior to being traded.

Yeah sorry I meant the year before his last season in Chicago.

[BR0D1E86]

He has not been what they wanted. They are getting Brandon Bass like production out of him.

That's simply false, even this year he's markedly more productive and efficient than Brandon Bass. He's not getting his salary level to just out-perform Brandon Bass, but let's at least be fair and accurate when we criticize him.

[HomoSapien]

[

i don't know, isn't it a little disheartening that jerry isn't willing to dip a toe in the tax waters to preserve the team as-is to see how rose's recovery pans out? this year doesn't count for the repeater tax, right? you'd still retain the option to dismantle the team if rose has taken a step back or if this roster can't prove to be a Legit Contender after 2013-14 without having the harshest of penalties imposed on you, which seems reasonable for a team that's arguably been the best in the league over the past two years

For me it isn't disheartening. I just don't think it's within the realm of possibility to see this version of the Bulls win anything. There's no way Rose returns good enough to dethrone LeBron James without an offseason. I believe Rose will return to his old level, but it seems so unrealistic for that to be next season. You can't take that much time off of basketball and return to be as sharp as you were. It takes time.

Michael Jordan returned from basketball in great condition from baseball and in perfect health, and even he wasn't in "basketball shape" to play at his level. We may get Rose back, but for that season he won't be as long as the Rose we're used to.

And from a bigger standpoint, I think paying the tax in the way we most likely would, doesn't help us. Our role players weren't the problem. We had one of the best benches in the league. Our problem, for two straight playoffs, is that the team falls flat on its face if Rose is shut down or unavailable.

Our issue is that we don't have a good enough 2nd player. If next season is a wasted season, then we've got a great chance to start retooling without wasting a year of Rose's prime.

No team can win a championship without it's best player, but I don't see the Thunder or Heat losing to the Sixers without Durrant or James.

[Blue Note]

What's an extra 10 or even 20 mil to a lucrative franchise like the Bulls. If the option to pay the LT is built into the game (as opposed to a hard cap), why not take ruthless advantage of it if you believe in your ability to compose a roster?

Then again, that same mentality seems to live within the White Sox organization. And it mostly hasn't worked out for them.

[kyrv]

See, I just don't see why people think he's underperforming. His PER, TS% and per 36 numbers have stayed fairly consistent since his time with Utah. When you consider that our current system is less conducive to Boozer being effective on offense (no big man drawing out defense, no Sloan, D Will, etc), we're getting exactly what we should have expected, and what Reinsdorf paid for. His defense is also improved as a Bull (the difference between last season and this season is definitely noticeable), though still not exactly good.
His postseason production has not been outstanding, that's for sure, but consider that he played all of the 2011 playoffs injured, and the 2012 playoffs were a lose cause anyway, so who cares?

I'm sorry that Boozer is not everything you dreamed he was, but he's not underperforming by any means.

He's pretty much the player he was, and that they signed, I agree, good points. I do think he was a little better in Utah but I mean basically it's as you said, this is who they signed. While his defensive lapses are often easy to spot, his defense is a little better overall than I imagined, I think he is better than he was in Utah.

[DJhitek]

I'm ok with any direction the Bulls will take because I understand both sides.

I don't fancy this to the Ben Wallace situation because Tyson who just got paid the previous summer, came off his worst season because he got lazy. As much as I believe this team can contend every year as currently constructed, I don't think it's good enough to beat the Heat and as it stands, Derricks injury puts this current model in a world of hurt next season and beyond.

Simply put, this team was built to win now. If it can't win now, why keep it together as such?

Fair enough, but if the goal is to rebuild to win, wouldn't you want to try to make a trade that maximizes on court value? Pure capspace has value in the NBA and the Bulls would be paying for it in this case with talent with no intention of actually using that capspace.

There are many ways for the team to retool for 2013/14. Trading Deng and/or Noah for a pick is one of the worst ways to do it. This is about money and I'm going to call the team out on it.

As far as the Tyson thing, it is the same thing. I have no issue with the fact that they traded Tyson. My issue was that he could have brought back talent instead of an expiring contract that was not used. The trade wasn't about improving the team but avoiding tax. Same thing right now.

....

I really can't overstate this. I have no issue with the team trading players to improve. I also don't have an issue with them trying to avoid luxury tax. They also haven't actually done anything yet so screaming about it is premature.

If the Bulls manage to pull a rabbit out of their hat and manage to get a lot more than the 8 pick for Deng, I have no issue with it. I just see all the rumors floating around as bad on court moves both in the short term and the long term.

I actually think the only way to go is draft picks. There is not a single player easily attainable that is better then Deng. Making lateral moves is exactly why the Magic are stuck in a rut right now. But again, if management stands pat, I'm good.

Me, I'd rather find some talent in this draft and cut some salary. There is also a part of me, uneducated of course, that thinks Derrick Rose coming back to try to help a title run late in a season has disaster written all over it. It's one thing to rehab during an offseason, doing it in season just feels dangerous.

[nomorezorro]

i just hate, hate, hate the stockholm syndrome that appears to have set in around here. after over a decade of rebuilding, of dodging the tax and saying "it's just until the bulls are contenders," the bulls have put together a roster that had the best record in the league two years running.

you people should know how difficult it is to put together a real contender, how important it should be to seize that moment when it comes up. to see people making excuses, to write off TWO seasons to rose's injury when he could very well be back in top form before the next playoffs, to say "it's a business! would you pay the tax??" when the bulls are making $50 million a year and always increasing in value as a team should they ever be sold for people worth hundreds of millions of dollars? it just doesn't make sense to me at all

[Red Larrivee]

you people should know how difficult it is to put together a real contender, how important it should be to seize that moment when it comes up. to see people making excuses, to write off TWO seasons to rose's injury when he could very well be back in top form before the next playoffs, to say "it's a business! would you pay the tax??" when the bulls are making $50 million a year and always increasing in value as a team should they ever be sold for people worth hundreds of millions of dollars? it just doesn't make sense to me at all

Tell me how likely the following scenario is:

The Bulls have a worse bench, less experienced players, still haven't improved offensively and Rose comes back from ACL rehab sometime in 2013 (January). Rose returns to his MVP form before the playoffs and carries the Bulls past the Miami Heat to the NBA Finals.

[kyrv]

i just hate, hate, hate the stockholm syndrome that appears to have set in around here. after over a decade of rebuilding, of dodging the tax and saying "it's just until the bulls are contenders," the bulls have put together a roster that had the best record in the league two years running.

you people should know how difficult it is to put together a real contender, how important it should be to seize that moment when it comes up. to see people making excuses, to write off TWO seasons to rose's injury when he could very well be back in top form before the next playoffs, to say "it's a business! would you pay the tax??" when the bulls are making $50 million a year and always increasing in value as a team should they ever be sold for people worth hundreds of millions of dollars? it just doesn't make sense to me at all

I agree with you, my feeling is, and I'm not against changes, but I assume they will be very careful before making any changes and not catch draft fever and have a thirst for transactions.

Transplant had a thread on this, and I agree, my thinking as a fan is, I expect them to pay some luxury tax this year. Not just to do it, but it will be necessary to remain a contender.

I want to applaud you, among others, that point out how freaking how hard it is to create a contender, especially one built around a 6-3 player. Incredibly difficult. I've been enjoying the cr*p out of it though.

[HyMay]

always loved deng, but after he hit on my boys fiancee at the club while my boy was there and **** her afterwards i lost all respect for him.. goodbye deng

She would have cheated on him down the line...he should consider that a gift. Can you imagine him marrying her and finding out her true colors then.

[HomoSapien]

Finding Rose a sidekick should be the number one priority of this franchise. If you don't, he becomes this generation's Patrick Ewing or Dominique Wilkins.

[nomorezorro]

Tell me how likely the following scenario is:

The Bulls have a worse bench, less experienced players, still haven't improved offensively and Rose comes back from ACL rehab sometime in 2013 (January). Rose returns to his MVP form before the playoffs and carries the Bulls past the Miami Heat to the NBA Finals.

i think the fact that it's just accepted without complaint that one of the team's biggest strengths is being butchered is a bad sign

keep the bench mob, hope rose comes back, hope boozer feels more comfortable in year three with the team and takes a tiny step forward, hope deng comes back from surgery and takes a step forward from an injury-plagued year, hope rip gets more comfortable in year two with the team and remains relatively healthy. hope the team has clicked by april.

is it likely? not really, but no team winning the championship is likely. it's possible -- and not miraculous possible, but legitimately a scenario that could play out -- and so few teams have realistic paths to a title

[Red Larrivee]

=
i think the fact that it's just accepted without complaint that one of the team's biggest strengths is being butchered is a bad sign

keep the bench mob, hope rose comes back, hope boozer feels more comfortable in year three with the team and takes a tiny step forward, hope deng comes back from surgery and takes a step forward from an injury-plagued year, hope rip gets more comfortable in year two with the team and remains relatively healthy. hope the team has clicked by april.

is it likely? not really, but no team winning the championship is likely. it's possible -- and not miraculous possible, but legitimately a scenario that could play out -- and so few teams have realistic paths to a title

Yes, but then you're paying luxury tax to a team that isn't getting past Miami, doesn't have the $$$ to fix a flaw and risking becoming a repeat offender the following year with Taj's extension and rising salaries with Boozer, Deng, Noah and Rose.

I agree with what Homo just said, the Bulls #1 priority should be finding a legit #2. You can't expect Rose to come back from ACL to the same offensive burden and carry this team anywhere. The luxury tax is just icing on the cake.

Sometimes you have to take a few steps back to go forward. This is one of those times.