Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza

[WallToWall]

If the Wizards didn't make the Nene deal and planned on letting McGee walk then this deal would make sense.

If the Wizards made the deal planning to make other trades then the deal could make sense.

Otherwise...

My gut tells me we are not done with trades. We have to get rid of Blatche, especially if he is not training/getting ready like he is supposed to be doing. I dont see an amnesty for him...its just not the way the FO operates IMO. So, perhaps we get a 2nd rnd draft pick for Blatche. If we're lucky, a low 1st rnd pick.I also dont see Crawford and Booker being part of the future plans for this team. They will be trade for either another draft pick(s) and/or a veteran decent SG.

[nate33]

If the Wizards didn't make the Nene deal and planned on letting McGee walk then this deal would make sense.

If the Wizards made the deal planning to make other trades then the deal could make sense.

Otherwise...

My gut tells me we are not done with trades. We have to get rid of Blatche, especially if he is not training/getting ready like he is supposed to be doing. I dont see an amnesty for him...its just not the way the FO operates IMO. So, perhaps we get a 2nd rnd draft pick for Blatche. If we're lucky, a low 1st rnd pick.I also dont see Crawford and Booker being part of the future plans for this team. They will be trade for either another draft pick(s) and/or a veteran decent SG.

Why didn't I think of that? We should just trade Blatche for a 1st round pick! Problem solved!
/sarcasm

If we could get a 2nd round pick or a 1st round pick for Blatche, then there would be no discussion of amnestying him. We'd trade him in a heartbeat.

We're not getting a pick for Blatche. We are either keeping him, trading him for an equally bad contract, or amnestying him.

[Jay81]

you dont see Ted post too much on a sunday but obviously the negative feedback is eating away at him

http://www.tedstake.com/2012/06/24/fina ... um=twitter

[Benjammin]

This doesn't need its own thread, Ji. You should know the drill by now. I find Teddy Ballgame to be a might bit sensitive. At least the Capitals seemed to have a good weekend acquisition-wise.

[Dat2U]

So with the rumors of Chicago willing to trade Noah/Deng... would this have been a better move than the Okafor/Ariza trade?

Wizards trade:
3rd pick - 2012 draft
PF Jan Vesely
SF Rashard Lewis

Bulls trade:
CE Joakim Noah
SF Loul Deng

Bulls shave $7mil off the cap immediately if they buyout Shard. Create a ton a flexibility beyond next season (especially if they amnesty Boozer too).

Wizards lock in a top 5 center who's signed for next 4 seasons. Deng while showing some wear and tear is still coming off an all-star season and is signed for another 2 years.

New roster:

C Joakim Noah .... Kevin Seraphin
F Nene Hilario ..... Trevor Booker
F Loul Deng ........ Chris Singleton
G .................... Jordan Crawford
G John Wall ........ Shelvin Mack

Basically, we'd be a starting SG from being Chicago. It would be very dependent on Wall making the leap and getting a jumper. Going after Billups, D. Green or Rush in free agency with the MLE would probably be ideal.

Personally, I think this is a far better example of 'going in all' than the Okafor/Ariza trade. To me, this team has a much higher upside by adding two veterans who can actually play at a high level.

[DallasShalDune]

The RealGM article he references is the most optimistic piece I've read on the trade yet. Also, it makes ME at least feel a little better.

[Jay81]

So with the rumors of Chicago willing to trade Noah/Deng... would this have been a better move than the Okafor/Ariza trade?

Wizards trade:
3rd pick - 2012 draft
PF Jan Vesely
SF Rashard Lewis

Bulls trade:
CE Joakim Noah
SF Loul Deng

Bulls shave $7mil off the cap immediately if they buyout Shard. Create a ton a flexibility beyond next season (especially if they amnesty Boozer too).

Wizards lock in a top 5 center who's signed for next 4 seasons. Deng while showing some wear and tear is still coming off an all-star season and is signed for another 2 years.

New roster:

C Joakim Noah .... Kevin Seraphin
F Nene Hilario ..... Trevor Booker
F Loul Deng ........ Chris Singleton
G .................... Jordan Crawford
G John Wall ........ Shelvin Mack

Basically, we'd be a starting SG from being Chicago. It would be very dependent on Wall making the leap and getting a jumper. Going after Billups, D. Green or Rush in free agency with the MLE would probably be ideal.

Personally, I think this is a far better example of 'going in all' than the Okafor/Ariza trade. To me, this team has a much higher upside by adding two veterans who can actually play at a high level.

thats a pretty bad offensive team and werent you the one said deng being selected to the all star team was a joke. I do like Noah but giving your our 3rd overall pick is hard to swallow unless its harrson barnes lol

[FAH1223]

So with the rumors of Chicago willing to trade Noah/Deng... would this have been a better move than the Okafor/Ariza trade?

Wizards trade:
3rd pick - 2012 draft
PF Jan Vesely
SF Rashard Lewis

Bulls trade:
CE Joakim Noah
SF Loul Deng

Bulls shave $7mil off the cap immediately if they buyout Shard. Create a ton a flexibility beyond next season (especially if they amnesty Boozer too).

Wizards lock in a top 5 center who's signed for next 4 seasons. Deng while showing some wear and tear is still coming off an all-star season and is signed for another 2 years.

New roster:

C Joakim Noah .... Kevin Seraphin
F Nene Hilario ..... Trevor Booker
F Loul Deng ........ Chris Singleton
G .................... Jordan Crawford
G John Wall ........ Shelvin Mack

Basically, we'd be a starting SG from being Chicago. It would be very dependent on Wall making the leap and getting a jumper. Going after Billups, D. Green or Rush in free agency with the MLE would probably be ideal.

Personally, I think this is a far better example of 'going in all' than the Okafor/Ariza trade. To me, this team has a much higher upside by adding two veterans who can actually play at a high level.

Wall is less of a scorer than Rose, but Nene >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Boozer (except in terms of rebounding)

That team does resemble CHI a lot though... I wouldn't do the trade as we need to use this top 5 pick.

[nate33]

The RealGM article he references is the most optimistic piece I've read on the trade yet. Also, it makes ME at least feel a little better.

Here is the paragraph that I think is most relevant:

That said, Washington loses flexibility for the 13-14 season and that clearly marks a downside of the deal. Even though a shallow and still heavily flawed Wizards team would not have won enough to get serious momentum in terms of free agent signings next summer, they could have used that space in an unbalanced trade or an amnesty pickup even though very few teams will be using their amnesty that season because of how contracts are structured that year. What mitigates this loss to a degree is the fact that Washington will have space the following year or can trade the suddenly more valuable expiring contracts of Ariza and Okafor next summer if they want to parlay their 2014 space into players who can be a part of their future. On top of that, the brunt of the new CBA downshift will come into play that season and having close to $42 million committed to those same 10 contracts discussed above plus whatever pick(s) and players would go on the 2013 books between now and then means that the space if any they gave up could be pyrrhic after considering factors like the MLE and cap holds for that summer. The loss of some financial flexibility for next season is a net negative that could be largely inconsequential if the salary cap goes where I expect it to next season.

This seems like a bunch of gibberish to me. He just glosses over the fact that this trade obliterates would could be max cap room in 2014. That's not "inconsequential". That's a huge deal, especially when the more restrictive luxtax penalties kick in that year.

[nate33]

So with the rumors of Chicago willing to trade Noah/Deng... would this have been a better move than the Okafor/Ariza trade?

Wizards trade:
3rd pick - 2012 draft
PF Jan Vesely
SF Rashard Lewis

Bulls trade:
CE Joakim Noah
SF Loul Deng

Wow, Dat2U. I'm kind of surprised that you of all people proposed this. Noah is a little better than Okafor and signed long term. Deng is a little better than Ariza and is signed for twice the money for twice the years. Are those players (and contracts) worth the loss of Vesely, the #3 and cap room?

[hands11]

This from the sbnation Q&A with the guy who covers the Hornets.

"Okafor can still play. Well, both can still play, but Ariza comes with some.. asterisks. But to start with Okafor, I think the "prime" characterization is probably accurate. He's a very solid rebounder (I wouldn't buy his lowered rates from the lockout year as indicative of a larger trend; SSS and he was unhealthy), he excels at long tap-outs for offensive boards he has no business getting, and he's a solid screen setter. Obviously relying on him for offense will never be a smart move, but he generally can take smaller matchups if they present themselves."

"He's also a very positionally aware defender; he'll make all the appropriate rotations with ample anticipation and is strong and laterally quick enough to defend the majority of NBA post options. When Monty Williams joined the Hornets in 2010, he designed a defensive system meshing some aspects of zone as well as Thibodeau's strong-side help scheme, with Okafor as the centerpiece. New Orleans ranked in the top-5 defensively up until January when the majority of the team fell apart with injuries (Chris Paul, David West, and Ariza all going down). If I could describe Okafor in a word, it'd be intelligent. Both ends. It's very clear watching him play just how much effort he puts into preparation, and that certainly allows him to offset his height (6'9" without shoes)."

Same injury rule should apply to Nene. He was healthy three years in a row before last year

[Severn Hoos]

The RealGM article he references is the most optimistic piece I've read on the trade yet. Also, it makes ME at least feel a little better.

Here is the paragraph that I think is most relevant:

That said, Washington loses flexibility for the 13-14 season and that clearly marks a downside of the deal. Even though a shallow and still heavily flawed Wizards team would not have won enough to get serious momentum in terms of free agent signings next summer, they could have used that space in an unbalanced trade or an amnesty pickup even though very few teams will be using their amnesty that season because of how contracts are structured that year. What mitigates this loss to a degree is the fact that Washington will have space the following year or can trade the suddenly more valuable expiring contracts of Ariza and Okafor next summer if they want to parlay their 2014 space into players who can be a part of their future. On top of that, the brunt of the new CBA downshift will come into play that season and having close to $42 million committed to those same 10 contracts discussed above plus whatever pick(s) and players would go on the 2013 books between now and then means that the space if any they gave up could be pyrrhic after considering factors like the MLE and cap holds for that summer. The loss of some financial flexibility for next season is a net negative that could be largely inconsequential if the salary cap goes where I expect it to next season.

This seems like a bunch of gibberish to me. He just glosses over the fact that this trade obliterates would could be max cap room in 2014. That's not "inconsequential". That's a huge deal, especially when the more restrictive luxtax penalties kick in that year.

nate, did you mean to say max cap room in 2013? Because this deal wouldn't affect 2014, right? The problem for that year will be the cap holds for Wall, Booker, and Seraphin (assuming Crawford is gone by then).

I like Nene a lot, but if Seraphin reaches his potential, maybe they can move him (Nene) by 2014, with another shot at max cap space in 2014, even accounting for cap holds - assuming they've traded or amnestied Blatche by then?

[Dat2U]

So with the rumors of Chicago willing to trade Noah/Deng... would this have been a better move than the Okafor/Ariza trade?

Wizards trade:
3rd pick - 2012 draft
PF Jan Vesely
SF Rashard Lewis

Bulls trade:
CE Joakim Noah
SF Loul Deng

Wow, Dat2U. I'm kind of surprised that you of all people proposed this. Noah is a little better than Okafor and signed long term. Deng is a little better than Ariza and is signed for twice the money for twice the years. Are those players (and contracts) worth the loss of Vesely, the #3 and cap room?

Noah & Deng are significantly better than Okafor & Ariza. Noah is arguably a top 30 player. Deng is still a better than avg starter at Sf.

I actually wouldn't make this trade though, I was just suggesting that there were better ways to 'go all in' as opposed to the Okafor/Ariza deal.

[nate33]

The RealGM article he references is the most optimistic piece I've read on the trade yet. Also, it makes ME at least feel a little better.

Here is the paragraph that I think is most relevant:

That said, Washington loses flexibility for the 13-14 season and that clearly marks a downside of the deal. Even though a shallow and still heavily flawed Wizards team would not have won enough to get serious momentum in terms of free agent signings next summer, they could have used that space in an unbalanced trade or an amnesty pickup even though very few teams will be using their amnesty that season because of how contracts are structured that year. What mitigates this loss to a degree is the fact that Washington will have space the following year or can trade the suddenly more valuable expiring contracts of Ariza and Okafor next summer if they want to parlay their 2014 space into players who can be a part of their future. On top of that, the brunt of the new CBA downshift will come into play that season and having close to $42 million committed to those same 10 contracts discussed above plus whatever pick(s) and players would go on the 2013 books between now and then means that the space if any they gave up could be pyrrhic after considering factors like the MLE and cap holds for that summer. The loss of some financial flexibility for next season is a net negative that could be largely inconsequential if the salary cap goes where I expect it to next season.

This seems like a bunch of gibberish to me. He just glosses over the fact that this trade obliterates would could be max cap room in 2014. That's not "inconsequential". That's a huge deal, especially when the more restrictive luxtax penalties kick in that year.

nate, did you mean to say max cap room in 2013? Because this deal wouldn't affect 2014, right? The problem for that year will be the cap holds for Wall, Booker, and Seraphin (assuming Crawford is gone by then).

I like Nene a lot, but if Seraphin reaches his potential, maybe they can move him (Nene) by 2014, with another shot at max cap space in 2014, even accounting for cap holds - assuming they've traded or amnestied Blatche by then?

Yes. Max cap room for the 2013/2014 season, or as you said, the Summer of 2013.

[Severn Hoos]

Sorry, I always equate the FA signing period (summer) when talking about cap space. Gotcha.

Still curious of there's a realistic way to get max or near-max space in summer 2014. That may be the plan, from Ernie & Ted's perspective...

[hands11]

Jason Reid comes-through again, glad he isn't a stenographer like most Washington sports reporters.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/wi ... story.html

That might be the most impressive basketball article I've ever read from the Washington Post. Not only was it very intelligent, but it took gutts to write. He may not have had a great relationship before with Wiz ownership and management, but now he's probably going to be persona non grata atda phone booth - they ain't gonna feed him a thing. That's the price of integrity. Jason Reid manned up.

Are you kidding me ? I think that was stupid for him to write that garbage. Total speculation to the negative side. There is no point to it except he may have burned some bridges. He should have written a balanced article. This could happen or that could happen because that is where we are. No one will know for sure until we see them play and see how the minutes go.

No one has said Okafor is starting for one though there is a good chance he will.

Two...

“We’re not going to stunt anyone’s development,” Grunfeld said emphatically. “Everybody’s going to get their minutes. Everybody’s going to get their opportunities.”

Perhaps if the Wizards played in Fantasyland. Here’s how it usually works in the NBA: The guys with the biggest guaranteed contracts play the most. Grunfeld has been around the NBA his entire adult life. He knows the deal.
---

That was not true with Lewis. That wasnt true of Dray.

Guys that you go out and sign with the biggest contracts may start, but guy that you bring on because you are dumping the biggest waste of a contract in the league are not guaranteed to start. Nene was a guaranteed start. They traded two young pups for him on a long contract. Okafor and Trevor are not guaranteed to start. Two totally different kind of trades. They will battle it out in camp and the coach will decide how to line them up best to win games.

They may want to break up Nene and Okafor so they can have one out there with a matching younger player. Ves and Nene. Kevin and Okafor. That kind of thing. They added vets and they want to win now, but they doesn't mean they are still not focused on developing the young players who may be here longer.

[mohammed10]

Geez- has one trade ever generated 78+ pages of discussion?

[hands11]

I just had a wild thought. The Wizards right now are built around defense, and until they upgrade from Jordan Crawford they have a very high usage, but low efficiency player at SG.

That got the Philadelphia 76ers all the way to the Finals with Allen Iverson taking a bunch of shots on relatively low efficiency. The rest of their team killed it on the boards and played terrific defense. We talk about Wall needing to improve his three point shooting and I always consider Jordan Crawford trades. This coming season if Crawford shoots better with the Wizards being much better defensively and on the boards, Washington could be built similar to the 2001 Philly team. (Or, if Beal comes in and gets shots like a young Kobe did with the Lakers back around 1999.)

Crawford takes shots just like Iverson. He has no conscience. He lacks the athleticism, strength, and accuracy of Iverson at his best. Yet, Jordan's shooting is pretty similar to that of 1999 Allen Iverson.

Someone please bring me back to earth from the wild thought. That is best of the best case scenario stuff. (It would also make Arturo's 45-win or better projection be spot on).

Now your starting to get it CCJ.

First off, it wasnt that expensive. Again, they were going to pay Lewis what .. 14M or so. And people wanted a FA for the 5M we would have have left over. Well this trade adds up to that only I would much rather have Okafor then Lewis.

As for Crawford, he is pretty good when driving. His problem was his 3 ball mostly which I hope he is working on. Walls shot will get better. Bookers shot did get better. Singleton will be better. Ariza when not asked to do to much is effective. He won't be playing for a contract or to justify the big one he just signed. The just need to add another SG. One that can hit from range who is a complete basketball player.

Beal

Crawford, Beal and Mason along with Wall can provide the scoring from the guard spots. Nene and Kevin are the post scorers. Ariza is a glue player who defends. Then you have slashers in Ves and Booker. A 3 and D in Chris Singleton.

They are building a nice team. On to the draft.

If they walk with Beal and Crowder, I think people are going to be pretty happy.

[Kanyewest]

So with the rumors of Chicago willing to trade Noah/Deng... would this have been a better move than the Okafor/Ariza trade?

Wizards trade:
3rd pick - 2012 draft
PF Jan Vesely
SF Rashard Lewis

Bulls trade:
CE Joakim Noah
SF Loul Deng

Wow, Dat2U. I'm kind of surprised that you of all people proposed this. Noah is a little better than Okafor and signed long term. Deng is a little better than Ariza and is signed for twice the money for twice the years. Are those players (and contracts) worth the loss of Vesely, the #3 and cap room?

Noah & Deng are significantly better than Okafor & Ariza. Noah is arguably a top 30 player. Deng is still a better than avg starter at Sf.

I actually wouldn't make this trade though, I was just suggesting that there were better ways to 'go all in' as opposed to the Okafor/Ariza deal.

It's a worse deal because the Wizards give up the #3 pick. Yes Noah and Deng are solid players and better than what the Wizards got for Lewis but the #3 pick has a chance to be a game changer.

[nate33]

Still curious of there's a realistic way to get max or near-max space in summer 2014. That may be the plan, from Ernie & Ted's perspective...

Good question. One that hasn't been brought up in 70 odd pages of this thread. And it's an important question. Perhaps the most important question surrounding the trade.

The answer is, "no".

In Summer 2014, we will have the following players under contract:
Nene - $13M
Vesely - $4.2M
2012 #3pick - $4.9M
2013 #15pick - $1.5M

That's $23.6M right there. We will have the following cap holds:

Wall - $14M
Seraphin - $6.9M
Booker - $5.9M
2014 1st round pick - $1.2M

That's $26.8M in cap holds which gets our cap figure up to $51.6M. Three minimum salary guys and it's $53M. Add Blatche's $8.4M and it's up $61.4M.

At best, we avoid signing anybody else to anything more than a minimum contract, we amnesty Blatche, and we renounce Booker. That would get our salary down to $46.5M which leaves us roughly $12M in cap room.