Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza

[tontoz]

So with the news of Harden wanting to stay with OKC,

That means absolutely nothing until he actually signs a contract.

[Rafael122]

And that's not because EG is our GM but just because of the nature of Free Agency.

It isn't just about free agency.

How do you think the Cavs got Irving?

Lotto luck? People just assume the Clippers gave the Cavs the top pick. Cavs could have just as easily picked 2-5 or wherever the Clippers were projected to land.

[tontoz]

At the stage the Wizards are at, fans should hope for more wins, for a functionning team, for a team playing sound basketball, for a good positive atmosphere in the arena because there will be no more knuckleheads to boo..

The the fans would have had exactly that without this deal.

[LyricalRico]

And that's not because EG is our GM but just because of the nature of Free Agency.

It isn't just about free agency.

How do you think the Cavs got Irving?

Lotto luck? People just assume the Clippers gave the Cavs the top pick. Cavs could have just as easily picked 2-5 or wherever the Clippers were projected to land.

Not to mention that you can't really use the cheapness of Donald Sterling as an example of a viable "plan" that's going to be available every year.



Usually teams end up with mid-late firsts to take on contracts (like we did with Hinrich). So I'm not seeing that as being a huge loss.

[tontoz]

It isn't just about free agency.

How do you think the Cavs got Irving?

Lotto luck? People just assume the Clippers gave the Cavs the top pick. Cavs could have just as easily picked 2-5 or wherever the Clippers were projected to land.

So who is assuming that? Or are you just making stuff up?

If the Cavs didn't have capspace they wouldn't have Irving. And a 2-5 pick would look pretty good most years. They got compensated for taking on a bad contract.

The Wizards took on bad contracts and got nothing in return.

[fishercob]

And that's not because EG is our GM but just because of the nature of Free Agency.

It isn't just about free agency.

How do you think the Cavs got Irving?

Lotto luck? People just assume the Clippers gave the Cavs the top pick. Cavs could have just as easily picked 2-5 or wherever the Clippers were projected to land.

Cavs had a 2.8% chance at the #1 pick with the Clips pick, which I believe was slotted 8th. They got insanely lucky.

[DCZards]

The Wizards took on bad contracts and got nothing in return.

Some of us believe the Zards got a much better team in return for taking on those contracts.

[MDStar]

It isn't just about free agency.

How do you think the Cavs got Irving?

Lotto luck? People just assume the Clippers gave the Cavs the top pick. Cavs could have just as easily picked 2-5 or wherever the Clippers were projected to land.

So who is assuming that? Or are you just making stuff up?

If the Cavs didn't have capspace they wouldn't have Irving. And a 2-5 pick would look pretty good most years. They got compensated for taking on a bad contract.

The Wizards took on bad contracts and got nothing in return.

I guess we can agree to disagree on this part. If they were both signed for 4-5 years, then yes they would be bad contracts. However, at worst (depending on if the opt-out) they are both 2 year deals. Considering that from everything that we have heard, it was unlikely that Lewis would be bought out, the deals equate to just 1 year over what we were contractually obligated with Rashard.

[tontoz]

The Wizards took on bad contracts and got nothing in return.

Some of us believe the Zards got a much better team in return for taking on those contracts.

Much better by taking on a wing who sucks and a servicable big? OK

Baron can still play a bit himself but he was still a bad contract first and foremost.

[Ruzious]

I heard it's a player termination option, whereas Ariza's is a player option (or he has an opt out clause, can't remember which I read). It sounded like a difference in name only. Both have player options they would be fools (or wiser men than me) to decline.

Fools is the correct option. Thanks Will.

[DCZards]

Much better by taking on a wing who sucks and a servicable big? OK

Baron can still play a bit himself but he was still a bad contract first and foremost.

Ok, "much better" may be an overstatement. Let's just say "better"...and more defensive-oriented, more mature, smarter and more likely to make the playoffs team.

[Bickerstaff]

The Wiz would be a much more attractive free agent destination if they had max salary cap room.

I don't buy that.

You're right. Basketball players have little interest in money.

No, they have little interest in max cap space. Max cap space=minimal talent. And there's a set limit to what any player can be paid. Any free agent worth having max cap space for is going to get several identical offers. Is any superstar going to jump at the chance to play alongside a dozen guys on rookie contracts? So maybe EG could have overbid for the services of some lesser players to come to DC. Or not sign any free agents but accumulate bad contracts and draft picks and use up the cap space that way. Have 15 guys on rookie contracts, an enviable cap situation, another spirit-crushing losing season or two, less incentive for players to stay focused on playing the right way and more incentive to focus on their numbers. You can't expect players to give their all for a lost cause. They're people. They get bored. They develop bad habits. I'm sure you place zero stock in things like "veteran leadership" and "toughness" and "playing the game the right way" and "human emotions", but high-level achievement in any field relies largely, if not mostly, on things that cannot be sorted in a spreadsheet.

[veji1]

At the stage the Wizards are at, fans should hope for more wins, for a functionning team, for a team playing sound basketball, for a good positive atmosphere in the arena because there will be no more knuckleheads to boo..

The the fans would have had exactly that without this deal.

No because that team was hopelessly short on vets. One injury to Nene and it was a lotto team full of puppies once more. I love how KS played to end the season and liked the wins the team got. BUT it was in April when half the league has let hope go away and doesn't care, and another 10 teams are resting the big guys for the POs.. Only a handfull of teams play hard then and we happened to be one of those... But it was fool's gold.. this season teams will have scouted KS, the way the team goes to Nene, etc.. It will be a lot harder.

Honestly the Wizards were awfully short on starting caliber vets. Now there are 3 in the team : Nene. Okafor and Ariza. Not 6 or 7, just 3 quality starting caliber vets. And if Nene injures himself we aren't a 15 wins teams all of a sudden, we can deal with some injuries.

again the end of last season, while encouraging, was also very fragile and could have been a fluke.

[veji1]

Bickerstaff, +1.

The WIz are trying to change the culture.. The NEne trade was the beginning of the process, not the end. we now have 3 quality vets (although overpaid) who will help the team grow, play the right way, TRAIN the right way, etc.... just NENE wasn't going to change the way the team worked once the novelty of NENE + new coach wore off.

[Nivek]

No, they have little interest in max cap space. Max cap space=minimal talent. And there's a set limit to what any player can be paid. Any free agent worth having max cap space for is going to get several identical offers. Is any superstar going to jump at the chance to play alongside a dozen guys on rookie contracts? So maybe EG could have overbid for the services of some lesser players to come to DC. Or not sign any free agents but accumulate bad contracts and draft picks and use up the cap space that way. Have 15 guys on rookie contracts, an enviable cap situation, another spirit-crushing losing season or two, less incentive for players to stay focused on playing the right way and more incentive to focus on their numbers. You can't expect players to give their all for a lost cause. They're people. They get bored. They develop bad habits. I'm sure you place zero stock in things like "veteran leadership" and "toughness" and "playing the game the right way" and "human emotions", but high-level achievement in any field relies largely, if not mostly, on things that cannot be sorted in a spreadsheet.

Please show me any place I've said or suggested that I don't value leadership or toughness. Please show me any place where I've said the only things worth considering are things that can be sorted in a spreadsheet.

Take your time. Search hard. I'll send you a box of cookies if you can find any such statement from me.

And then maybe take a look at some of the posts I've made through this thread that reflect what I actually don't like about the trade. You know, instead of you making **** up and then pretending like that's what I don't like about the trade. (You might see that what I object to is this SPECIFIC trade for these SPECIFIC players -- not to the notion of using cap space to trade for a player or players.)

As for free agents: if the Wizards drafted well and used the cap space they could have had to make smart signings, they could have been an extremely attractive destination for a high-quality free agent. Now that's not an option. I don't like giving up that option (or myriad other options that would have come along) for Okafor and Ariza. I don't think the acquisitions are worth the cost.

[tontoz]

The 2010 draft class will be in their 3rd year and all are productive players. It isn't like they are rookies.

Repeating that we are getting quality vets over and over doesn't make it true. Ariza sucks. Okafor is only an upgrade on the boards compared to Nene/Seraphin. He isn't an offensive or defensive upgrade over either guy.

[closg00]

Bickerstaff, +1.

The WIz are trying to change the culture.. The NEne trade was the beginning of the process, not the end. we now have 3 quality vets (although overpaid) who will help the team grow, play the right way, TRAIN the right way, etc.... just NENE wasn't going to change the way the team worked once the novelty of NENE + new coach wore off.

Grunfeld created the culture, was/is in-charge of the culture.

[TGW]

Amen, Nivek and Tontoz. Amen.

[Nivek]

No because that team was hopelessly short on vets. One injury to Nene and it was a lotto team full of puppies once more. I love how KS played to end the season and liked the wins the team got. BUT it was in April when half the league has let hope go away and doesn't care, and another 10 teams are resting the big guys for the POs.. Only a handfull of teams play hard then and we happened to be one of those... But it was fool's gold.. this season teams will have scouted KS, the way the team goes to Nene, etc.. It will be a lot harder.

Honestly the Wizards were awfully short on starting caliber vets. Now there are 3 in the team : Nene. Okafor and Ariza. Not 6 or 7, just 3 quality starting caliber vets. And if Nene injures himself we aren't a 15 wins teams all of a sudden, we can deal with some injuries.

again the end of last season, while encouraging, was also very fragile and could have been a fluke.

I think what the Wiz were short on was talent moreso than vets. I can see the argument either way, though. That doesn't necessarily mean the team needed these particular veterans in this exact move, of course.

[fishercob]

I heard it's a player termination option, whereas Ariza's is a player option (or he has an opt out clause, can't remember which I read). It sounded like a difference in name only. Both have player options they would be fools (or wiser men than me) to decline.

Fools is the correct option. Thanks Will.

I know it's fun to post with such certitude; I do it all the time. But I think there's a reasonable chance that one of those guys opts out. More likely Ariza than Okafor because of the amount of money Okafor makes, but here are the reasons I think it's possible:

1) Recent precedent: Jameer Nelson is walking away from $8.5M this year because he reportedly doesn't want to be traded and wants to choose his next team. Gerald Wallace is walking away from $9.5M. Sessions from $4.3M. Richard Jefferson and David West walked from guaranteed money in recent years -- Jefferson took a big haircut (note, he's now bald) in annual salary to do so for more overall guaranteed money.

2) Jameer Nelson's reasoning: he may want to exercise some choice in where he plays. This is Ariza's 5th team in 8 years. He'll, like Nelson now, enter next offseason as an expiring contract. Rather than risking getting traded to a bad situation or a city he doesn't want to be (good news Trev, you're headed to Milwaukee!) he may wan to pick place of business, at least for as long as he can. He's from LA and reportedly very much a "west coast guy"

3) Guaranteed money. He'll only be 28 next summer. He should be able to get a 3 year deal pretty easily. I imagine he wont have trouble getting $5M/yr. No less than $4M, and maybe he gets $6M. With the threat of a career threatening injury always looming, it's better to be locked in for $12M than it is $7M, even if the years are longer. Remember everyone thought Jefferson was nuts to opt out of his max or near max deal ($15M) and then he turned around and signed for 4/$39M. If he had played out that final year he may have gotten that 3/$24M that was the difference, but he would have carried that huge amount of risk that an injury could erase his future earning potential.

I haven't given Emeka's situation a ton of thought yet, but I do not think Ariza staying a second year is a slam dunk; it may be 50/50 or "better."