OT: Morey doin work

[K_ick_God]

yea, I don't get this thinking either.. with no so called "star" on their team, the rockets have managed to win more games the past few years than the knicks... yet most here feels we are on to some master plan.... really? Like it or not, you have to believe morey has a plan... he has done a good job with the rockets so far, they have been respectable(record wise) the past few years and they have managed to gather some assets.. that is not a bad thing at all...

You say that because you're not a Rockets fan who has to wait around for nothing to happen and watch your team wither on the vine. Last season the Rockets missed the playoffs -- so his team is regressing, going in reverse in the third or fourth year of his plan (or whatever it is). You say that's progress but it's literally not.

I doubt even he would say that what he's doing is working if he was being 100% honest.

Having good ideas does not mean you have a viable plan to contend.

It's further false to paint them as some up-and-coming team with great flexibility. They are not a particularly young team. And they do not have cap room. In fact, their payroll is only $3M less than the Knicks' payroll.

I say this because I am a knick fan that has waited around and watched this team wither on the vine... waste assets and money...

Having good ideas does not mean you have a viable plan to contend.

that remains to be seen... having bad ideas surely won't get you to contender status.

It's further false to paint them as some up-and-coming team with great flexibility. They are not a particularly young team. And they do not have cap room. In fact, their payroll is only $3M less than the Knicks' payroll

it is funny, we were praising our expiring contracts a few years ago as great assets.... well the rockets have near expiring contracts of some productive players and i am not talking about the eddy curry type.. plus they have picks.. something we don't have... it gives them options.. one's we don't have .. why is that so hard to undrstand.. and on top of that, they have been over .500 since the 2006-2007 season... every year..

not saying that morey has some genius plan, but he has a plan that seems to be well thought out, and gives his franchise real options to take that next step...

This is the same thing as you holding up the Nets as a good example of team building. These are teams that WANTED to follow the same basic model the Knicks are on but struck out. So when they strike out, you say they didn't want those players to begin with? But they did.

You don't think the Rockets wouldn't have traded for Melo if he wanted them? Same with Dwight of course.

Everybody is reporting that it's an "open secret" that the Rockets would take Dwight even without an extension. Desperation sets in when you keep striking out.

This is what I don't get -- you use these other teams' plans as better than the Knicks' plan but it's obvious to everyone that these other teams are just not getting the players they want to get. How is that a different plan lol?

Do you think the Nets were not after Melo? Not after Dwight? Why did they trade for Gerald Wallace if they're not in win-now mode? Win now at all costs by the way.

[K_ick_God]

yea, I don't get this thinking either.. with no so called "star" on their team, the rockets have managed to win more games the past few years than the knicks... yet most here feels we are on to some master plan.... really? Like it or not, you have to believe morey has a plan... he has done a good job with the rockets so far, they have been respectable(record wise) the past few years and they have managed to gather some assets.. that is not a bad thing at all...

You say that because you're not a Rockets fan who has to wait around for nothing to happen and watch your team wither on the vine. Last season the Rockets missed the playoffs -- so his team is regressing, going in reverse in the third or fourth year of his plan (or whatever it is). You say that's progress but it's literally not.

I doubt even he would say that what he's doing is working if he was being 100% honest.

Having good ideas does not mean you have a viable plan to contend.

It's further false to paint them as some up-and-coming team with great flexibility. They are not a particularly young team. And they do not have cap room. In fact, their payroll is only $3M less than the Knicks' payroll.

I say this because I am a knick fan that has waited around and watched this team wither on the vine... waste assets and money...

Having good ideas does not mean you have a viable plan to contend.

that remains to be seen... having bad ideas surely won't get you to contender status.

It's further false to paint them as some up-and-coming team with great flexibility. They are not a particularly young team. And they do not have cap room. In fact, their payroll is only $3M less than the Knicks' payroll

it is funny, we were praising our expiring contracts a few years ago as great assets.... well the rockets have near expiring contracts of some productive players and i am not talking about the eddy curry type.. plus they have picks.. something we don't have... it gives them options.. one's we don't have .. why is that so hard to undrstand.. and on top of that, they have been over .500 since the 2006-2007 season... every year..

not saying that morey has some genius plan, but he has a plan that seems to be well thought out, and gives his franchise real options to take that next step...

This is the same thing as you holding up the Nets as a good example of team building. These are teams that WANTED to follow the same basic model the Knicks are on but struck out. So when they strike out, you say they didn't want those players to begin with? But they did.

You don't think the Rockets wouldn't have traded for Melo if he wanted them? Same with Dwight of course.

Everybody is reporting that it's an "open secret" that the Rockets would take Dwight even without an extension. Desperation sets in when you keep striking out.

This is what I don't get -- you use these other teams' plans as better than the Knicks' plan but it's obvious to everyone that these other teams are just not getting the players they want to get. How is that a different plan lol?

Do you think the Nets were not after Melo? Not after Dwight? Why did they trade for Gerald Wallace if they're not in win-now mode? Win now at all costs by the way.

[god shammgod]

from what i can tell on this board, supposedly every team is in a better position then the knicks.

[Fat Kat]

from what i can tell on this board, supposedly every team is in a better position then the knicks.

Yep. It's odd that certain posters still watch and post as much as they do, given their disdain for the team.

[K_ick_God]

from what i can tell on this board, supposedly every team is in a better position then the knicks.

Yep. It's odd that certain posters still watch and post as much as they do, given their disdain for the team.

I wouldn't even mind the disdain as long as there were logically sound arguments to back it up. The argument is, essentially, 'If you don't land a top player, even if you wanted one, you are building your team the right way.' BTW every GM knows he needs top players to win it all.

[thebuzzardman]

Yeah, we get it, you don't like the Knicks "plans" because they involved getting Melo for Gallo and one young asset too many. Geeze, get over it already. I used to LOVE reading your posts and game threads but now almost dread seeing a a TKF post because it inevitably leads back to "I don't like the Melo trade"

Knicks may or may not have had the BEST plan, but I saw them:
Upgrade PF in a big way (possible too much money, but so be it)
Upgrade SF in a big way, for a go to scorer, certainly what any "good" team needs.
Upgrade C in a big way. Now, may not have been part of the "original" plan, but a damn good reaction,that's for sure
They certainly used a #1 pick to get a guard, which was needed. They went after a guard in this weird last season and suceeded, again filling a need.
They went after a stretch the floor 3 point shooter, which was definitely needed, and got him
They drafted a back up big man, which was needed and took a flyer on a big man project, not a bad idea
They screwed the pooch on PG preparations but still decided they should take a flyer on a young PG who was released, seemed to work out "ok"

I think the Donnie\Grunfeld GM leadership has been "good". Not great. Not bad. Solid good.

did we all forget that undoing Isiah's mess is part of the picture here?

And then you bring up "oh, Houston has a better record than us last 10 years" Um, yeah, no kidding, EVERYONE had a better record than the Knicks in the Layden\Isiah years.

I don't get it. Melo's not perfect, Stat's not perfect, I GUESS we could have let everything expire, but folks around here act like we broke up the 67 Celtics or something. I like the Gallo\Felton\Stat\Chandler team too, but come on.

I swear, this board and others, people pined for a "star" for a good PF, for a real C, for a decent PG for YEARS, and then when they have all of the above, all they can do is nit pick and cry. Makes me wonder, it really does.

no you don't get it, because you start off with the typical baiting tactic.. therefore I won't engage you in this topic..

It's not baiting; it happens to be how I feel. Don't care if you respond, just felt like saying it. Sure there are other ways the Knicks could have rebuilt and trust me, I agree that I wish we did the 'traditional' or kept the assets for the complete and totally "no brainer". At least they were in the mix for the "generational player LeBron, too bad it didn't work out. I know part of your point is we got fully committed on players who won't necessarily deliver year in and year out contention, I get that. I agree, I think the Knicks, should have done Stat OR Melo, but it's where we are at, just a lot of folks here, I don't know, the level of hate for the team seems overboard. Half the post is addressing the board (and all Knick boards I frequent) in general.

[knicks742]

I remember in the summer of 2010, after making the trade with us, Morey said that he thought cap space was overrated and that most deals that summer would be sign and trade and he had positioned the rockets to have assets to sign and trades. Every major player signed with a team that had the cap room to sign them straight out and got signed and traded only to get the extra year or as a courtesy to their old team to get a trade exemption. Fail.

He is been trying to turn his assets into a franchise player for years now. We are still waiting for him to get that guy.

[nykballa2k4]

Oh. I see. An opinion on Morey is actually an opinion on the Melo trade and Stat signings. As are all opinions on everything here.

Carry on.

I think all that is being said is that you shouldn't be jealous of Morey and the Rockets, because Morey would kill to be in our position right now.

just thinking out loud here forgive me but:
Amare, Iman, Douglas for Scola, Kevin Martin and our own pick??

Knicks:
Chandler
Melo
Fields
Martin
Lin

bench: Scola JR, Baren Davids(did i missspell that right?), Jeffries, Jorts, Jerome and we can draft a point guard.

[thebuzzardman]

Did the Knicks just get even worse defensively in that trade?

[GONYK]

Oh. I see. An opinion on Morey is actually an opinion on the Melo trade and Stat signings. As are all opinions on everything here.

Carry on.

I think all that is being said is that you shouldn't be jealous of Morey and the Rockets, because Morey would kill to be in our position right now.

just thinking out loud here forgive me but:
Amare, Iman, Douglas for Scola, Kevin Martin and our own pick??

Knicks:
Chandler
Melo
Fields
Martin
Lin

bench: Scola JR, Baren Davids(did i missspell that right?), Jeffries, Jorts, Jerome and we can draft a point guard.

Gross

[gelek]

I'm ready to listen to all the assets Pat the Rat had in the summer of 2010... Mike Beasley? Seriously.

Pat had something no other team in the league had and it lead directly to a championship in two short years... a freaking, dirty, stinking Mole.

I don't ever think that Wade or the Heat were seriously in trouble of collusion, but another aspect of this is the recruiting process. The only way why the Heat could afford the superfriends and cleveland couldn't? Because the Heat wasted 2 years of Wade's prime trying to build to that FA. And yes the outcome seems to be great for them (1 ring is better then 0 rings) but I don't know if I'd be willing to play that gamble, especially looking at what the Bulls had. If I'm Bosh and Wade, signing with the Bulls would have been better (for Wade especially since he's from there) and that's even without knowing Rose was gonna turn into the 2011 MVP and hat yet to reach that Elite level.

Noah - Bosh - Deng - Wade - Rose

...

[magnumt]

I'd actually consider doing that Kings-NYK trade GONYK. Would give us a deeper and healthier roster, as well as a more flexible one both financially and trade wise.

--Mags

[TKF]

from what i can tell on this board, supposedly every team is in a better position then the knicks.

no, but it is the thinking that every team wants to be in the knicks shoes, that other teams are spinning their wheels is ridiculous.. especially coming from knicks fans and our situation... why can't we just appreciate what other teams are doing, it doesn't have to be morey and the rockets, it can be the pacers, sixers, hawks, I mean all of those teams according to the majority of this board suck, are stuck and or have no future.. yet they have been better than us for years and we somehow, have it all figured out...

it is getting a bit ridiculous...

[Smoke24]

from what i can tell on this board, supposedly every team is in a better position then the knicks.

Duh!!!

[TKF]

I remember in the summer of 2010, after making the trade with us, Morey said that he thought cap space was overrated and that most deals that summer would be sign and trade and he had positioned the rockets to have assets to sign and trades. Every major player signed with a team that had the cap room to sign them straight out and got signed and traded only to get the extra year or as a courtesy to their old team to get a trade exemption. Fail.

He is been trying to turn his assets into a franchise player for years now. We are still waiting for him to get that guy.

and we are waiting to get that guy, and the nets, and the pacers, and the kings and the hawks.. everyone is waiting for that guy.. the key is not to overspend on someone that isn't that guy, and some teams, including us have failed at that over the years....

those teams are not trying to win 45 games, they can do that with the teams they have now... their goal as ours should be is to contend. true franchise players are very few.. very few... until then, keep building a winning culture, a place where guys want to play, and keep stockpiling assets until "that guy" is available... you may make small moves in the interim, but don't blow your load.. the rockets havent done that.. good for them.. but lets not knock them as if the knicks have it all figured out.. again, we haven't even reached their level of winning season after season yet....

[god shammgod]

and we are waiting to get that guy, and the nets, and the pacers, and the kings and the hawks.. everyone is waiting for that guy.. the key is not to overspend on someone that isn't that guy, and some teams, including us have failed at that over the years....

ahh. now we're getting to the heart of that matter. he's like kevin bacon, you can always find your way back to him.

[GONYK]

and we are waiting to get that guy, and the nets, and the pacers, and the kings and the hawks.. everyone is waiting for that guy.. the key is not to overspend on someone that isn't that guy, and some teams, including us have failed at that over the years....

ahh. now we're getting to the heart of that matter. he's like kevin bacon, you can always find your way back to him.

Wait...I thought the Rockets already had Kevin Martin

[jzmagik]

I find the morey criticism funny. He is making moves to stay competitive while collecting assets for future moves... there is nothing wrong with that, it is actually a smart way to do business. How is he hurting his team at all?

No he isn't, doin really honestly feel he has NO plan? NONE? You think he is just trading just to trade ? And how do you know he isn't trying to get a top 5?


yea, I don't get this thinking either.. with no so called "star" on their team, the rockets have managed to win more games the past few years than the knicks... yet most here feels we are on to some master plan.... really? Like it or not, you have to believe morey has a plan... he has done a good job with the rockets so far, they have been respectable(record wise) the past few years and they have managed to gather some assets.. that is not a bad thing at all...

It's strange to see Knicks fans trashing Morey for the trades that probably most of them would like to be see being done for us. I think Morey's a good GM but there are some valid criticisms of his strategy. For one, the Rockets have been stuck on the mediocrity treadmill ever sine Yao retired, the deadman's land of not bad enough to be top 5 contenders in the draft, and not good enough to be playoff contenders. This will be their third year in a row now with a mid-round pick.

The second thing is his stockpiling of assets has made a lot of his players unhappy. Aaron Brooks used to be their starter, he got injured and then Lowry rose to take his place. Brooks became unhappy and they ended up trading him for Dragic. Now all of a sudden, Lowry's in the exact same situation as Brooks, got injured and Dragic became the starter over him. All of a sudden, Lowry's looking like an expendable asset. Then you got the same situation with Kevin Martin, who became unhappy with his lack of playing time and shots as the other swing men assets started getting more minutes.

If you're going to judge Morey by his results for the past 2-3 years, he's drafted pretty well and made some very nice trades but he's struck out a lot on the big moves he was trying to pull off, some of which were not really his fault persay (Gasol trade veto, missing out on Bosh), but still this is a results-driven league. His ultimate endgame is landing a star to build around, but he hasn't followed through yet.

With that said, with the recent moves it looks like he's going to be pulling off something big very soon.

[GONYK]

I remember in the summer of 2010, after making the trade with us, Morey said that he thought cap space was overrated and that most deals that summer would be sign and trade and he had positioned the rockets to have assets to sign and trades. Every major player signed with a team that had the cap room to sign them straight out and got signed and traded only to get the extra year or as a courtesy to their old team to get a trade exemption. Fail.

He is been trying to turn his assets into a franchise player for years now. We are still waiting for him to get that guy.

and we are waiting to get that guy, and the nets, and the pacers, and the kings and the hawks.. everyone is waiting for that guy.. the key is not to overspend on someone that isn't that guy, and some teams, including us have failed at that over the years....

those teams are not trying to win 45 games, they can do that with the teams they have now... their goal as ours should be is to contend. true franchise players are very few.. very few... until then, keep building a winning culture, a place where guys want to play, and keep stockpiling assets until "that guy" is available... you may make small moves in the interim, but don't blow your load.. the rockets havent done that.. good for them.. but lets not knock them as if the knicks have it all figured out.. again, we haven't even reached their level of winning season after season yet....

Why are you ignoring that Morey desperately tried to get Melo? Obviously, he thought Melo was "that guy"

[GONYK]

This is mandatory knowledge to put any conversation about the Rockets vs. the Knicks in context

Morey desperately tried to trade for Carmelo Anthony. He thought Melo was a franchise player, and worth giving up a majority of the assets that the Rockets have accrued.

Anyone who ignores this is being disingenuous in the debate