OT: Morey doin work

[god shammgod]

This is mandatory knowledge to put any conversation about the Rockets vs. the Knicks in context

Morey desperately tried to trade for Carmelo Anthony. He thought Melo was a franchise player, and worth giving up a majority of the assets that the Rockets have accrued.

Anyone who ignores this is being disingenuous in the debate

and obviously the nets thought he was that guy too with how desperate they were to get him. but honestly it's not worth it, we've been over this so many times. it's boring at this point.

[GONYK]

and obviously the nets thought he was that guy too with how desperate they were to get him. but honestly it's not worth it, we've been over this so many times. it's boring at this point.

My guess is this thread dies soon, because once people are forced to acknowledge that fact stated above, there really is nothing else to talk about.

[TKF]

I remember in the summer of 2010, after making the trade with us, Morey said that he thought cap space was overrated and that most deals that summer would be sign and trade and he had positioned the rockets to have assets to sign and trades. Every major player signed with a team that had the cap room to sign them straight out and got signed and traded only to get the extra year or as a courtesy to their old team to get a trade exemption. Fail.

He is been trying to turn his assets into a franchise player for years now. We are still waiting for him to get that guy.

and we are waiting to get that guy, and the nets, and the pacers, and the kings and the hawks.. everyone is waiting for that guy.. the key is not to overspend on someone that isn't that guy, and some teams, including us have failed at that over the years....

those teams are not trying to win 45 games, they can do that with the teams they have now... their goal as ours should be is to contend. true franchise players are very few.. very few... until then, keep building a winning culture, a place where guys want to play, and keep stockpiling assets until "that guy" is available... you may make small moves in the interim, but don't blow your load.. the rockets havent done that.. good for them.. but lets not knock them as if the knicks have it all figured out.. again, we haven't even reached their level of winning season after season yet....

Why are you ignoring that Morey desperately tried to get Melo? Obviously, he thought Melo was "that guy"

IT IS IGNORED because it is meaningless.. if morey really wanted him and had the pieces (which he did) and didn't care if melo resigned or not.. melo would have been a rocket.. why would denver not make the move if they felt carmelo was going to bolt.. It leads me to believe that morey was doing his due dilligence and probing and maybe the offer wasn't as good as you would like to believe..


but let me ask you this.. why didn't denver trade him to the rockets once melo didn't sign the extension.. why? I mean morey didn't care if carmelo didn't reup right? so either morey wasn't offering that much or maybe the knicks assets were pretty good... and according to you and this board, had other teams been open to trading for him, what we gave up would not have been enough? so which is it gony? why isn't he on the rockets if morey was willing to" open up his butt cheeks" as posted around here?

[taj2133]

the rockets really want drummond i hear lot rumors about that but i think he is going to be taking by a different team this whole could blow up in face if he doesn't draft well.

[GONYK]

IT IS IGNORED because it is meaningless.. if morey really wanted him and had the pieces (which he did) and didn't care if melo resigned or not.. melo would have been a rocket.. why would denver not make the move if they felt carmelo was going to bolt.. It leads me to believe that morey was doing his due dilligence and probing and maybe the offer wasn't as good as you would like to believe..

I can tell you exactly what the offer was. Morey told the Nuggets they can pick any combination of players and picks they wanted for Carmelo Anthony. No player was off-limits to Denver.

The whole reason it never got far, is because Melo immediately made it known he wasn't signing an extension in Houston.

That does not mean that the Rockets didn't desperately pursue him, because they very much did.

What is meaningless is everything you said. Morey felt that Melo was worth selling the farm for. Not wanting to complete the trade because Melo wouldn't have extended doesn't invalidate Morey's evaluation of Melo as a franchise player worth cashing in for.

[TKF]

IT IS IGNORED because it is meaningless.. if morey really wanted him and had the pieces (which he did) and didn't care if melo resigned or not.. melo would have been a rocket.. why would denver not make the move if they felt carmelo was going to bolt.. It leads me to believe that morey was doing his due dilligence and probing and maybe the offer wasn't as good as you would like to believe..

I can tell you exactly what the offer was. Morey told the Nuggets they can pick any combination of players and picks they wanted for Carmelo Anthony.

The whole reason it never got far, is because Melo immediately made it known he wasn't signing an extension in Houston.

That does not mean that the Rockets didn't desperately pursue him, because they very much did.

What is meaningless is everything you said. Morey felt that Melo was worth selling the farm for. Not wanting to complete the trade because Melo wouldn't have extended doesn't invalidate Morey's evaluation of Melo as a franchise player worth cashing in for.

didn't you say the rockets were willing to do it, even if he didn't resigne? which is it now?

Not wanting to complete the trade because Melo wouldn't have extended doesn't invalidate Morey's evaluation of Melo as a franchise player worth cashing in for.

and trade rumors of morey wanting carmelo doesn't vailidate that he felt melo was a franchise player as well.. you say morey said that the nuggets had the choice of any combination, I also read where they would have used their 6.3 TPE and maybe buddinger.... the nuggets wanted either young players or cap relief which the rockets could offer... and picks.... I don't think morey was offering the farm, I must have missed the quote where morey made that offer you are talking about...

Honestly it seems as if houston was offering picks and cap relief.. the nets, they were just desperate for someone, new arena, they want to sell tickets, which is why we also see they went right after deron williams... with pretty much the same package they were offering for carmelo..

[suicidedeuce]

but let me ask you this.. why didn't denver trade him to the rockets once melo didn't sign the extension.. why? I mean morey didn't care if carmelo didn't reup right? so either morey wasn't offering that much or maybe the knicks assets were pretty good... and according to you and this board, had other teams been open to trading for him, what we gave up would not have been enough? so which is it gony? why isn't he on the rockets if morey was willing to" open up his butt cheeks" as posted around here?

This is an intellectually vapid argument.

For one you can legitimately apply what you THINK you about a current situation and try to apply it to another time and place.

Maybe Morey values a franchise center relatively more highly and is willing to take a bigger risk. That doesn't by rule define what he did or not not offer for Melo.

Maybe the Melo situation taught him he won't get extension guarantees from stars and had evolved this thinking/approach.

Your committing the common error of arguing backwards. Starting with your preferred version of an conclusion and coming up with reasons to support it.

[GONYK]

The pick any combo you want deal was with a contract extension.

I don't believe I am the one that said in this thread that Morey wanted Melo without a contract extension. His preference was the extension.

He was willing to trade for Melo without the extension though, but the offer was much less competitive for obvious reasons. That is the one you are citing.

[K_ick_God]

but let me ask you this.. why didn't denver trade him to the rockets once melo didn't sign the extension.. why? I mean morey didn't care if carmelo didn't reup right? so either morey wasn't offering that much or maybe the knicks assets were pretty good... and according to you and this board, had other teams been open to trading for him, what we gave up would not have been enough? so which is it gony? why isn't he on the rockets if morey was willing to" open up his butt cheeks" as posted around here?

This is an intellectually vapid argument.

For one you can legitimately apply what you THINK you about a current situation and try to apply it to another time and place.

Maybe Morey values a franchise center relatively more highly and is willing to take a bigger risk. That doesn't by rule define what he did or not not offer for Melo.

Maybe the Melo situation taught him he won't get extension guarantees from stars and had evolved this thinking/approach.

Your committing the common error of arguing backwards. Starting with your preferred version of an conclusion and coming up with reasons to support it.

TKF has been dealing from a loaded deck for a little while now.

[TKF]

The pick any combo you want deal was with a contract extension.

I don't believe I am the one that said in this thread that Morey wanted Melo without a contract extension. His preference was the extension.

He was willing to trade for Melo without the extension though, but the offer was much less competitive for obvious reasons. That is the one you are citing.

well gony, from what I read and have been reading.. the rockets I think had every intention of pairing carmelo with Yao, until of course yao could no longer play and was forced to retire... the rockets had picks, a TPE and cap space to offer denver and guys like kevin martin.. I think and from reading the rumors of the offers that the rockets were willing to make a reasonable deal to get carmelo (based around giving the nuggs cap space and a pick they got from the knicks) to pair with yao.. that made sense.. but I think some of you have been painting the picture that he was willing to gut his team and assets ( like the knicks and nets did) to get carmelo is not really supported....

But hey, again, that doesn't take away from the job he is doing now, which I understand and respect considering what teams like the rockets have to work with.. they are not the favored destination, yet when you can manage to stay respectable and still leave yourself a shot to become a contender, then your GM is doing a good job... thats all.. no need for people to get their undies in a bunch...

it is ok to say that other teams are doing a good job.... I know you at least agree with that....

later bro..

[K_ick_God]

The pick any combo you want deal was with a contract extension.

I don't believe I am the one that said in this thread that Morey wanted Melo without a contract extension. His preference was the extension.

He was willing to trade for Melo without the extension though, but the offer was much less competitive for obvious reasons. That is the one you are citing.

well gony, from what I read and have been reading.. the rockets I think had every intention of pairing carmelo with Yao, until of course yao could no longer play and was forced to retire... the rockets had picks, a TPE and cap space to offer denver and guys like kevin martin.. I think and from reading the rumors of the offers that the rockets were willing to make a reasonable deal to get carmelo (based around giving the nuggs cap space and a pick they got from the knicks) to pair with yao.. that made sense.. but I think some of you have been painting the picture that he was willing to gut his team and assets ( like the knicks and nets did) to get carmelo is not really supported....

But hey, again, that doesn't take away from the job he is doing now, which I understand and respect considering what teams like the rockets have to work with.. they are not the favored destination, yet when you can manage to stay respectable and still leave yourself a shot to become a contender, then your GM is doing a good job... thats all.. no need for people to get their undies in a bunch...

it is ok to say that other teams are doing a good job.... I know you at least agree with that....

later bro..

The Knicks gave up a lot of quantity for Melo but did they give up quality?

Gutting the team is your interpretation but it's rendered very doubtful because of what's happened since this drastic "gutting" that you would like us to believe happened (and we've been through this before):

Tyson replaces Mozgov.

Melo replaces Gallo.

Shumpert (and to some extent Harrellson) replace Wilson.

Lin replaces Felton.

Substantial upgrade across the board. So not much of a gutting is it? You can't really gut a team and then replace all the players given up in a few months. The end result proves your premise wrong.

That's why I think the picks are the only things we gave up that could be of any real value to us. Everybody else was clearly upgraded.

[Kampuchea]

still talking about the trade?

i dont have a problem with the knicks trades and signings on the current roster. If you don't swing for the fences you arent hitting a home run.

The Knicks have title potential if things come together for us. The Rockets have potential to make the playoffs and stay in the middle of the pack, but are not a team competing for a title.


People complain of the fit of our stars. Does anybody remember what happened to that other team that had stars who didn't fit talent-wise because their 2 main stars were too ball dominant? I think this coming season can be a great one in NY.

1) First full training camp
2) talent at every position.
3) roster is mostly staying the same. Consistency and familiarity is a good thing
4) no coaching drama

[TKF]

but let me ask you this.. why didn't denver trade him to the rockets once melo didn't sign the extension.. why? I mean morey didn't care if carmelo didn't reup right? so either morey wasn't offering that much or maybe the knicks assets were pretty good... and according to you and this board, had other teams been open to trading for him, what we gave up would not have been enough? so which is it gony? why isn't he on the rockets if morey was willing to" open up his butt cheeks" as posted around here?

This is an intellectually vapid argument.

For one you can legitimately apply what you THINK you about a current situation and try to apply it to another time and place.

Maybe Morey values a franchise center relatively more highly and is willing to take a bigger risk. That doesn't by rule define what he did or not not offer for Melo.

Maybe the Melo situation taught him he won't get extension guarantees from stars and had evolved this thinking/approach.

Your committing the common error of arguing backwards. Starting with your preferred version of an conclusion and coming up with reasons to support it.

yikes, I really didn't want to bother responding to this post.. but whatever....

For one you can legitimately apply what you THINK you about a current situation and try to apply it

actually I am responding to what other think about the current situation and are trying to apply it to another time and place...

To say that the rockets wish they were in our position, and using their pursuit of caremelo to prove that is pretty much doing the same thing.. correct? maybe morey does value centers over wing players.. great.. which is probably why he pursued melo to pair with yao, who was their center piece..

I have no preferred version of the conclusion.. I didn't know there were other versions of the conclusion.. the conclusion was that the rockets didn't get melo.. why and how we exactly don't know.. we all have our ideas of what happened.. none of us know, but looking at how the rockets do business I can assume the line of reasoning morey may have used... that is not my preferred version just one that seems to follow the logic of how the rockets have done business..


intellectually vapid... LOL.. you are trip dude..

LOL

later...

[ibraheim718]

TKF I got you...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN2D9yct2tY[/youtube]

[TKF]

The Knicks gave up a lot of quantity for Melo but did they give up quality?

Gutting the team is your interpretation but it's rendered very doubtful because of what's happened since this drastic "gutting" that you would like us to believe happened (and we've been through this before):

Tyson replaces Mozgov.

Melo replaces Gallo.

Shumpert (and to some extent Harrellson) replace Wilson.

Lin replaces Felton.

Substantial upgrade across the board. So not much of a gutting is it? You can't really gut a team and then replace all the players given up in a few months. The end result proves your premise wrong.

That's why I think the picks are the only things we gave up that could be of any real value to us. Everybody else was clearly upgraded.

so you should establish what is called quality? I thought the league determined that.. wilson is being offered for a lottery pick.. someone thinks that is quality

gallo was given and extension... someone thought that was quality

Felton got them richard pryor, portland thought that was quality.

you act as if we could not have signed lin or tyson chandler had we made no other moves... we still could have drafted shumpert...

while we are at it, lets consider all of the other moves that could have been done... I don't understand what getting chandler, or lin or shumpert has to do with what we gave up...

If I go out and spend 50 bucks on a gallon of milk and on my way home I stop off and buy a lottery ticket and win 10k, that doesn't mean that I didn't overpay for the milk...

you keep taking our lottery winnings and applying them to previous deals.. they have nothing to do with that.. and why are we talking about the deal.. I thought we were talking about morey and the rockets?

[K_ick_God]

The Knicks gave up a lot of quantity for Melo but did they give up quality?

Gutting the team is your interpretation but it's rendered very doubtful because of what's happened since this drastic "gutting" that you would like us to believe happened (and we've been through this before):

Tyson replaces Mozgov.

Melo replaces Gallo.

Shumpert (and to some extent Harrellson) replace Wilson.

Lin replaces Felton.

Substantial upgrade across the board. So not much of a gutting is it? You can't really gut a team and then replace all the players given up in a few months. The end result proves your premise wrong.

That's why I think the picks are the only things we gave up that could be of any real value to us. Everybody else was clearly upgraded.

so you should establish what is called quality? I thought the league determined that.. wilson is being offered for a lottery pick.. someone thinks that is quality

gallo was given and extension... someone thought that was quality

Felton got them richard pryor, portland thought that was quality.

you act as if we could not have signed lin or tyson chandler had we made no other moves... we still could have drafted shumpert...

while we are at it, lets consider all of the other moves that could have been done... I don't understand what getting chandler, or lin or shumpert has to do with what we gave up...

If I go out and spend 50 bucks on a gallon of milk and on my way home I stop off and buy a lottery ticket and win 10k, that doesn't mean that I didn't overpay for the milk...

you keep taking our lottery winnings and applying them to previous deals.. they have nothing to do with that.. and why are we talking about the deal.. I thought we were talking about morey and the rockets?

Luck aside, you can't replace a gutted roster with superior pieces at every position in a few months. That doesn't happen. Lin was partially lucky but there are some good point guards floating around so it wasn't ridiculous luck. None of the other acquisitions were lucky at all.

As far as quality, I'm not debating whether those guys are good players or not good players. All I know is that each one of these comparisons is not that close:

Tyson replaces Mozgov - not close.

Melo replaces Gallo - not close.

Shumpert (and to some extent Harrellson) replace Wilson - closer but I think it'd be foolish to take Wilson over Shumpert and so do you.

Lin replaces Felton - not very close.

Every position upgraded. You can't argue with that and it debunks the myth that we gutted the team.

[god shammgod]

wilson is being offered for a lottery pick.. someone thinks that is quality

maybe you should recheck that thread

[K_ick_God]

wilson is being offered for a lottery pick.. someone thinks that is quality

maybe you should recheck that thread

He's saying Wilson is being *offered* for a lottery pick. That doesn't mean a thing.

The Knicks should offer Toney Douglas to New Orleans for the number one pick. Then we could say he's a high-quality player.

[suicidedeuce]

[intellectually vapid... LOL.. you are trip dude..

LOL

Given you continue to believe "lol" is an effective argument on your behalf, it stands... stands affirmed.

You can continue to jump through hoops for what I can only imagine is very regularly since what, March 2010(?) but the real premise of anything you have to say about trades and "flexibility" all go back to the same thing - the Knicks were "gutted", a premise you've never and cannot (in my experience) effectively establish.

You've simply taken the tact that repeating it often enough (a LOT) somehow validates it. Its a common tactic. By focusing on other teams and their options, you move the argument, hoping to leave the basis of your argument unchallenged.

But as I almost always see, you are challenged on it every time, because it's transparent as all hell.

Why you've spent a year and a half trying to sell what people are obviously not buying is perplexing.

But yeah, lets pretend i"m not only one who's noticed and use an emoticon as a rebuttal.

[ibraheim718]

wilson is being offered for a lottery pick.. someone thinks that is quality

maybe you should recheck that thread

He's saying Wilson is being *offered* for a lottery pick. That doesn't mean a thing.

The Knicks should offer Toney Douglas to New Orleans for the number one pick. Then we could say he's a high-quality player.

But even just the rumor validates Wilson's assetibility<<<made this word up.