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2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!)

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Re: 2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!) 

Post#841 » by dobrojim » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:52 pm

TGW wrote:
MF23 wrote:Are you guys f'n kidding me? Why wouldn't someone trade Saraphin and #3 for Harden? James Harden is easily one of the top 20 players in the NBA. Intellegent, athletic, young and proven. I better not hear EG turned down that trade! That's a championship backcourt you embrace as the nucleus of the team end of discussion!


I'll do #3 for Harden. Yes, Seraphin would be a sticking point if they asked...I would say no. The Wizards need to stop throwing in assets when the package offered is more than suitable.

So no, I wouldn't do Seraphin + 3 for Harden. I'd rather have Beal and Seraphin than Harden.


my inclination is to agree with you but I think it is a close call

hard not to let Harden's ineffective finals performance not influence
me more than it possibly should.
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Re: 2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!) 

Post#842 » by Ruzious » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:52 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Dat, aside from Davis, the players who I think have the best chance of playing in an all star game are Micheal Kidd-Gilchrist, Thomas Robinson, Quincy Miller, Moe Harkless, Damian Lillard, Andrew Nicholson, and possibly Dion Waiters.

I think Miller is going to recover from his ACL and become among the top scorers in the NBA.

Regardless of whether they are drafted I expect Machado, Denmon, Crowder, and Will Barton will be much better than expected.

I expect John Shurna will be drafted and he will make an NBA roster.

I won't be shocked if Darius Johnson-Odom ends up a better NBA player than Austin Rivers.

I expect Hollis Thompson will be selected much earlier in round two than projected, and he will stick with a team.

I also expect Terrell Stoglin will be drafted, by a playoff caliber team like the Bulls late in round two.

I do not think Crowder will be drafted.

Kudos to Dat for talking highly of Nicholson before anyone considered him much of a prospect. He measured really well - just about 6'10, 234, 7'4 wingspan, 8'11 standing reach, though his athletic numbers weren't impressive. But if he has the skills, he doesn't need to be a great run/jump athlete. There's some Antawn Jamison in his game, imo - unfortunately defensively as well as offensively.

I like Denman's chances a lot more than Barton's and Thompson's chances a lot more than Stoglin's.
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Re: 2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!) 

Post#843 » by Nivek » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:00 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
Nivek wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:If Jae Crowder is gone by 32, would you pick Denmon over Barton?


Yes.

I'll now duck that stapler CCJ is about to throw at my head.

I won't be shocked if neither Crowder nor Denmon is drafted at all.

Barton seems to have piqued the interest of a couple teams, and I expect he will go in round one now.

Some of the best players won't be drafted. I think Reggie Hamilton, Marcus Denmon, and Jae Crowder might be passed over simply because of their lack of height/size. Robbie Hummel won't be drafted because of injury concerns.

I believe Kevin Jones of West Virginia will be drafted way too low.


You might be right on all counts. It would be pretty amazing to have the Big East player of the year go undrafted, but I think NBA GMs might be up to the job.
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Re: 2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!) 

Post#844 » by dobrojim » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:03 pm

SUPERBALLMAN wrote:Hoopalotta I remember that Michael Lee story also. However, I don't think Wall's preference will deter Ernie from his pick.


I don't remember seeing the story but I agree that EG probably would not let
it influence his pick. And I think that is the correct position to take. If you're
confident about the pick (which I would not be), then you probably feel like
whatever reservations Wall has about him would evaporate over time, assuming
the team is successful. Winning cures a whole lot of evils.
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Re: 2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!) 

Post#845 » by dobrojim » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:06 pm

W. Unseld wrote:Things that may (or may not) look obvious in hindsight:
1. Why did we ever think a quasi-athletic guy with only a handful of great college games and an average shooting % was worthy of the #3 pick?
2. T Robinson was just another good but not great undersized PF
3. MKG was a jack of all trades, master of none. He's a good perimeter defender but this is the NBA & the superstars can't be guarded one on one
4. The best shooters were all in the 2nd round

I don't agree with all of the above but it's an interesting exercise to think 3-4 years in the future on these guys--it sobers you up from draft fever


it would be very interesting to see who guessed right about a lot of these guys
in 2-3 years. Thing is, that's probably the min amount of time needed to really
evaluate things. ie Seraphin.
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Re: 2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!) 

Post#846 » by McGully Culkin » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:07 pm

YOLO > YODA

That being said, EG better do what it takes to bring Harden to DC. #3 + (2/5) Seraphin/Singleton/Crawford/Booker/Seraphin for #28 + Harden, would be INCREDIBLE.

Would almost restore my faith in Grunfeld.

Wall
Harden
Ariza
Nene
Okafor
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Re: 2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!) 

Post#847 » by dobrojim » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:11 pm

Severn Hoos wrote:Read somewhere that the Cavs really like Crowder in the 2nd round. Us taking Beal & Crowder each 1 spot ahead of the Cavs would be a very satisfying evening.

Oh, and - I agree with whoever said earlier that it makes no sense for the Cavs to be so locked in on Beal. Given that their PG can shoot, wouldn't they be better off with MKG? And just like the critics here who say that you don't build a championship team with your two top players in the backcourt, wouldn't the same apply to the Cavs?

Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I still hope Beal is there at #3 and becomes a Wizard.


kinda reminds me of the Pacers taking Reggie Miller way back when just before we
picked, or MIA taking Caron. It would be schweet.

+1 on your last comment
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2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!) 

Post#848 » by TheKingOfVa360 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:12 pm

I'm hoping Beal falls to us and EG picks him. Wish we didn't have a gm that makes bonehead moves then I could feel a lot more confident on draft nights.


For the people that want Drummond you have to be crazy. The guy has bust written all over him. I'm not willing to take that chance plus our front court is crowded.
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Re: 2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!) 

Post#849 » by DCZards » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:14 pm

Nivek, I know YODA is more about stats than eye test but there are two guys not even on your list who will be first round picks and solid pros---Marcus Teague and Austin Rivers. In fact, Rivers is justifiably, imo, going to be an 8-12 pick. A lot of GM’s think highly of him. He’s got a lot of talent that was overshadowed by the immature and selfish way he often played at Duke.

I really like the way Teague improved his decision-making and running of the offense in the latter part of the Kentucky season. Not unlike Beal, he became more comfortable in his role as the season went on.

I’m wondering…is it harder for guys with one-year of college ball to score highly on YODA, which might also explain why Beal and MKG are rated below guys with more years and more college stats like Zeller and Crowder ? What percentage of YODA would you say is subjective?
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Re: 2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!) 

Post#850 » by GhostsOfGil » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:14 pm

TheKingOfVa360 wrote:For the person that wants Drummond you have to be crazy.


Fixed.
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Re: 2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!) 

Post#851 » by dobrojim » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:18 pm

sfam wrote:Logically, Charlotte's best choices are MKG and Robinson. Considering their lack of a winning spirit, I would have a really hard time passing on MKG if I were them. Assuming the trade has really broken down between #2 and #4, I'm now inclined to believe they take MKG, leaving us Beal.

This would mean the front of the lottery goes:

1. Davis
2. MKG
3. Beal
4. Waiters???? - or Barnes obviously
5. Robinson either as trade or keeper for Sac
6. Drummond??? - Would Portland really go to the well again? I say yes.
7. Barnes - or Waiters


one would have to almost pity MKG if he lands in CHA as much as he hates losing.
He would be beside himself on a team that while perhaps better than last year's
epically bad team, is still likely to be pretty bad.
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Re: 2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!) 

Post#852 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:18 pm

Andre Drummond really is aerodynamic!!!

Rocky the flying squirrel, Hawkman Avenger, Andre Drummond, and the Predator each in their own air space.

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Re: 2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!) 

Post#853 » by dobrojim » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:21 pm

Nivek wrote:
ecnirp wrote:Sidenote: Last guy from STL to play for the Wizards.....Larry Hughes :/....Hopefully he fairs better than Larry..which he will (Kid's got an unbelievable work ethic and a much better shooter)



You mean the Larry Hughes who had his career-best season in Washington, who led the league in steals and made the All-Defense team, and then signed a FAT free agent contract to play with Lebron in Cleveland?

I think we'd all be happy if Beal fares better in Washington than Hughes did. ;)


I had a similar thought. But then I also remember the shot-jacking and the 3 on 1
charges committed etc. Still I guess in the aggregate, it was mostly positive. Too bad
that even as a 1st team All-D player, he couldn't slow down DWade at all. In fairness,
not many can slow down Wade except for ....Nick Young!
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Re: 2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!) 

Post#854 » by dobrojim » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:23 pm

nate33 wrote:
tontoz wrote:If the Wizards are ever going to make a play for Harden now is the time. A Nene + 3 for Harden/Perkins makes some sense for both teams (assuming we can find a 3rd team for Perkins). OKC doesn't have any post scoring and Nene's contract isn't that much bigger than Perkins'.

They save money because Beal will be on his rookie contract for the duration of Nene's deal.

Is Harden's value really this high? After all, he is about to sign a max contract.

I'm not so sure how much leverage OKC has. Harden is going to be offered a max contract by somebody. OKC is going to lose one of Harden or Ibaka. Their only option is to trade one or both of those guys for (hopefully) equivalent talent at a much lower price. How many teams can offer this?

I say we offer just the #3 and be done with it. Don't give them Nene. We would need to include filler to make it work out. It pretty much has to be Ariza. Either that or make it Harden + Perkins for #3 + Okafor.


agree - I'd be more inclined to trade Ok than Nene. Ariza would top either of them.
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Re: 2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!) 

Post#855 » by nate33 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:24 pm

A summary of the top 3 picks in several major mock drafts:

SB Nation, Tom Ziller: 1. Davis - 2. Robinson - 3. Beal.
ESPN, Chad Ford: 1. Davis - 2. Robinson - 3. Beal.
Draft Express, Jonathon Divony: 1. Davis - 2. Robinson - 3. Beal.
CBS Sports, Jeff Goodman: 1. Davis - 2. Robinson - 3. Beal.
CBS Sports, Matt Moore: 1. Davis - 2. Robinson - 3. Beal.
Sports Illustrated, Sam Amick: 1. Davis - 2. Robinson - 3. Beal.
CSN Washington, Ben Standig: 1. Davis - 2. Robinson - 3. Beal.

Not a lot of variation there.
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Re: 2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!) 

Post#856 » by dobrojim » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:25 pm

Jay81 wrote:has this ever been done...

we trade our 3 to charlotte for their 2 straight up.

Why for us: We get Beal
why for them: They get TRob and save money for rookie contract


I think the Carter for Jamison trade was something like that. Don't remember
the exact details. There may have been cash involved.
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Re: 2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!) 

Post#857 » by Nivek » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:27 pm

DCZards wrote:Nivek, I know YODA is more about stats than eye test but there are two guys not even on your list who will be first round picks and solid pros---Marcus Teague and Austin Rivers. In fact, Rivers is justifiably, imo, going to be an 8-12 pick. A lot of GM’s think highly of him. He’s got a lot of talent that was overshadowed by the immature and selfish way he often played at Duke.

I really like the way Teague improved his decision-making and running of the offense in the latter part of the Kentucky season. Not unlike Beal, he became more comfortable in his role as the season went on.


Rivers rates solidly in the "don't draft" category based on his freshman year. I include an adjustment for underclassmen -- freshman and sophomores essentially get a bonus (that bonus was calibrated through research). I know there are scouts and GMs who like him. I think they're wrong -- UNLESS Rivers puts in a ton of work on his game and his body.

Teague rates as a solid 2nd round pick.

I’m wondering…is it harder for guys with one-year of college ball to score highly on YODA, which might also explain why Beal and MKG are rated below guys with more years and more college stats like Zeller and Crowder ?


It's harder in the sense that freshman and sophomores often have less developed games and have a lot of improving to do. That said, the top 10 scores all-time in YODA include 5 freshmen, 3 sophomores and 2 juniors -- no seniors. The top 20: 7 frosh, 6 soph, 5 juniors, 2 seniors. YODA rewards young players who play well.

What percentage of YODA would you say is subjective?


Almost zero. I have one area for intangibles, which is purely subjective. Everything else is driven by the numbers, the combine measurements/times/scores, and research.
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Re: 2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!) 

Post#858 » by Dr Positivity » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:27 pm

Random point since you guys like numerical scores and are open to weird rankings. I decided my hypothesis on the draft is that a player's impact on the game is 33% physical, 33% skill, 33% feel for the game (/spatial awareness, how well they read plays, etc.) while my guess on how players are actually drafted in those 3 categories is much closer to 70% athleticism, 25% skill, 5% feel for the game. I gave scores in the 3 categories to all the players (a subjective measure) and came up with these final rankings/tiers. It just so happens that if I rank each cat out of 10, the max score is 30 and since that lines up with 30 PER being a megastar (and likewise a player scoring 5, 5, 5 = 15 PER = average), I'm comfortable using my scores as a "PER projection". Here is what I got

24 PER
Anthony Davis

22 PER
Jeremy Lamb

19 PER
Meyers Leonard
Scott Machado
Andrew Nicholson
Jared Sullinger (Because of back injuries I would take him closer to 10th or 11th)

18 PER
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
Bradley Beal
Kendall Marshall

17 PER
Arnett Moultrie
Perry Jones III

16 PER
Harrison Barnes
Royce White
Evan Fournier
Dion Waiters
Damian Lillard
Terrence Ross

15 PER
Doron Lamb
Thomas Robinson
Tyler Zeller
Jae Crowder
Moe Harkless

14 PER
Draymond Green
Terrence Jones
Quincy Miller
Will Barton
Andre Drummond (*I would take top 15 just because I think the value of getting a shotblocking big man vs some of these other types of players, is worth the risk)

13 PER
Jeff Taylor
Marcus Denmon
John Henson (*Same as with Drummond, the upside of having a shotblocker that works out would lead to a top 15 pick for me)
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Re: 2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!) 

Post#859 » by Nivek » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:29 pm

Interesting approach Mufasa. If you're trying to project actual PER, your scores are a bit optimistic. As a prospect rating system, I think it's not bad.

Instead of presenting them as PER-like, it might be better to choose a different scale. Few drafts would yield as many high-PER players as your system "projects".
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Re: 2012 Draft, Part VI (Draft Week is Here!) 

Post#860 » by sfam » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:43 pm

nate33 wrote:A summary of the top 3 picks in several major mock drafts:

SB Nation, Tom Ziller: 1. Davis - 2. Robinson - 3. Beal.
ESPN, Chad Ford: 1. Davis - 2. Robinson - 3. Beal.
Draft Express, Jonathon Divony: 1. Davis - 2. Robinson - 3. Beal.
CBS Sports, Jeff Goodman: 1. Davis - 2. Robinson - 3. Beal.
CBS Sports, Matt Moore: 1. Davis - 2. Robinson - 3. Beal.
Sports Illustrated, Sam Amick: 1. Davis - 2. Robinson - 3. Beal.
CSN Washington, Ben Standig: 1. Davis - 2. Robinson - 3. Beal.

Not a lot of variation there.

So what you're saying is there's no chance we're gonna be able to get Beal? Great... :cry:

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