2011-12 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[An Unbiased Fan]

I'm seriously baffled how Dirk & Wade are on so many Top 5 lists. Dirk had a down year, didn't have great production, wasn't a Top 10 MVP candidate, and ended up All-NBA 3rd team. I'm scratching my head as to how he's Top 5, because he's borderline Top 10 this year, IMO.

Wade only played 49 game sin the regular season. Was #10 in MVP, 3rd team All-NBA, and had a mediocre playoff run. How is that Top 5?

[mysticbb]

You.

Well, in that case you have problems with reading comprehension, because I said that passing to an open teammate is better than taking a bad shot. Which proved to be true. That doesn't mean that Bryant never passes, he just should have passed it more often, because it is quite obvious that he can't create the kind of shots anymore in order to convert them at a higher rate.

And they don't convert at 35%.

All Lakers beside Bryant made a combined 395 of their 1136 3pt attempts. Well, that is 34.77112676 ... %, but we may as well round that up to 35%. ;)

Nowhere near as pathetic as 7 RPG from a PF. :lol:

Well, 7 RPG makes Nowitzki 23rd of 93 qualified forwards and forward/centers. 30% from 3 makes Bryant 46th of 56 qualified guards/wings. Now, which one of those looks more pathetic? The one being among the upper 25% of the players or the one being among the lower 25%. Or we can look at that: With Nowitzki on the court the Mavericks rebounded far better than without him. In fact the 76.1 DRB% with Nowitzki on the court would have been good enough to lead the league, Nowitzki improved his team in terms of rebounding this season.
Now, with Bryant on the court the Lakers got worse in terms of 3P%, while without him they made 35.2% of their 3pt attempts, which is above league average, it went down to 31.2% with him on the court, which would have been 2nd to last in the league. And even with that terrible 3p% with Bryant on the court, Bryant was still able to stay below it. That's how bad Bryant's 3pt shooting was this season. He made the Lakers shooting worse from the perimeter, from being at league average level to one of the worst in the league. I would call that "pathetic".

He came into the season out of shape.

You have trouble with reading and understanding, if you still think that this is true. The facts are speaking against you here or how do you explain that Nowitzki was just doing fine over the first 7 games of the season, but when he suffered the sore right knee it became a problem? And yet, despite the injury Nowitzki beats out Bryant in terms of boxscore and +/- based ratings while missing 4 games less than Bryant. An "out of shape" Nowitzki is still helping is team to a higher degree than Kobe Bryant did it this season.

[mysticbb]

Dirk had a down year, didn't have great production, wasn't a Top 10 MVP candidate, and ended up All-NBA 3rd team. I'm scratching my head as to how he's Top 5, because he's borderline Top 10 this year, IMO.

Nowitzki was 1st last season, and even while he was worse than last season, he still had a high impact. The guy is leading the league in prior informed RAPM and has the higher no-pior-informed RAPM of all starting players (3rd overall). His +/- based numbers are pretty close to last season. And while his production/efficiency was down, so was the league average down in those aspects and in comparison to the league average the "down" is clearly smaller than the absolut values may indicate.

Wade only played 49 game sin the regular season. Was #10 in MVP, 3rd team All-NBA, and had a mediocre playoff run. How is that Top 5?

Well, you have Bryant as the 3rd best player in the league, while there is no hard evidence in terms of performance that this is actually true. So, give those people the right to vote for Wade as well. ;)
To me, neither player makes much sense among the Top5. And I guess deep down in yourself you know that 3rd for Bryant isn't actually in agreement with his playing level now.
Btw, last season you argued that Bryant would be #1, because the Lakers had the highest difference on SG position in terms of Eff with +10. This season the Lakers have +3.9, while the Heat have +7.2. According to your logic from last season, that means that Wade was better than Bryant. Also, the Lakers have a higher difference on the C spot. Doesn't that mean according to your reasoning that Bynum should be labeled as the best player on the Lakers? Or did you change your reasoning in order to come up with Bryant again?

[parapooper]

I'm seriously baffled how Dirk & Wade are on so many Top 5 lists. Dirk had a down year, didn't have great production, wasn't a Top 10 MVP candidate, and ended up All-NBA 3rd team. I'm scratching my head as to how he's Top 5, because he's borderline Top 10 this year, IMO.

Wade only played 49 game sin the regular season. Was #10 in MVP, 3rd team All-NBA, and had a mediocre playoff run. How is that Top 5?

Yet you have Kobe 3rd even though he is only 17th in PER (despite the 9th highest usage in NBA history), 35th in WS, 65th in WS/48 (all for player with >1000minutes), 47th in RAPM, shot below 53%TS in RS and PS, was a below average defender and bad teamplayer.
How is THAT top5?

[An Unbiased Fan]

Dirk had a down year, didn't have great production, wasn't a Top 10 MVP candidate, and ended up All-NBA 3rd team. I'm scratching my head as to how he's Top 5, because he's borderline Top 10 this year, IMO.

Nowitzki was 1st last season, and even while he was worse than last season, he still had a high impact. The guy is leading the league in prior informed RAPM and has the higher no-pior-informed RAPM of all starting players (3rd overall). His +/- based numbers are pretty close to last season. And while his production/efficiency was down, so was the league average down in those aspects and in comparison to the league average the "down" is clearly smaller than the absolut values may indicate.

With all due respect, I don't see how Dirk's ranking in 2011 relates to 2012. His play, especially in the playoffs, is nowhere near what it was last season. You know my feelings on RAPM, numbers, but I have no problem with you referencing them. I just don't see how that numbers trumps everything else, and propels Dirk into the Top 5. We would be hard pressed to find anyone who felt Dirk was a Top 5 player at any point of this year.

Well, you have Bryant as the 3rd best player in the league, while there is no hard evidence in terms of performance that this is actually true. So, give those people the right to vote for Wade as well.
To me, neither player makes much sense among the Top5. And I guess deep down in yourself you know that 3rd for Bryant isn't actually in agreement with his playing level now.
Btw, last season you argued that Bryant would be #1, because the Lakers had the highest difference on SG position in terms of Eff with +10. This season the Lakers have +3.9, while the Heat have +7.2. According to your logic from last season, that means that Wade was better than Bryant. Also, the Lakers have a higher difference on the C spot. Doesn't that mean according to your reasoning that Bynum should be labeled as the best player on the Lakers? Or did you change your reasoning in order to come up with Bryant again?

Except Kobe was a Top 3-5 MVP candidate all year long. He was clearly the best SG this year, even by the words of most Miami heat fans. Wade is still talented, BUT are we really going to ignore that he was hurt this year, and only played 49 games? Are we going to ignore his mediocre playoffs?

And like i said last year, I don't use just one stat or measurement when evaluating players. EFF DIF is a good point for Wade to be sure, but I have said repeatedly that it's only a factor to consider, like other stats. I didn't even put Kobe in the Top 5 last year. The fact that Wade only played 49 games is THE issue for the RS. Throughout this project we have penalized players who missed significant time, because the overall impact of the numbers are lessened(like Shaq in the late 90's). And in the playoffs.....well, we all saw the playoffs, and how Wade regressed. Kobe was clearly better in that regard.

Overall, both Dirk & Wade were 3rd team. Neither were Top 9 in MVP voting, and both had down years production wise. I have no issue with them being Top 10....but Top 5? Really?

[An Unbiased Fan]

I'm seriously baffled how Dirk & Wade are on so many Top 5 lists. Dirk had a down year, didn't have great production, wasn't a Top 10 MVP candidate, and ended up All-NBA 3rd team. I'm scratching my head as to how he's Top 5, because he's borderline Top 10 this year, IMO.

Wade only played 49 game sin the regular season. Was #10 in MVP, 3rd team All-NBA, and had a mediocre playoff run. How is that Top 5?

Yet you have Kobe 3rd even though he is only 17th in PER (despite the 9th highest usage in NBA history), 35th in WS, 65th in WS/48 (all for player with >1000minutes), 47th in RAPM, shot below 53%TS in RS and PS, was a below average defender and bad teamplayer.
How is THAT top5?

Most experts would disagree with your characterization of Kobe, considering that he was #4 in MVP voting(not bad for a "bad teammate"), All-NBA 2nd team(not bad for a "below average defender"), along with All-NBA 1st team.

Production-wise, he was 28/5/5 in the RS, and 30/5/4 in the PS.

[MisterWestside]

Most experts would disagree with your characterization of Kobe, considering that he was #4 in MVP voting(not bad for a "bad teammate"), All-NBA 2nd team(not bad for a "below average defender"), along with All-NBA 1st team.

Production-wise, he was 28/5/5 in the RS, and 30/5/4 in the PS.

So your counter to mystic's post is to list a bunch of voter based awards and per game statistics?

Kobe in the playoffs:
.143 WS/48 (normalized and opponent adjusted box data, 23rd overall)
Don't have access to RAPM playoffs, so let's use APM:
-1.22 APM (3rd on his own team)

Compare to Dirk's playoffs:
.139 WS/48 (24th overall)
14.98 APM (1st overall)

So Dirk's giving you Kobe's box production and he's also dominating +/-. Now, I don't have Dirk in the top 5 (I think that RAPM overstates his value a bit, and he hasn't dominated across all metrics like he has in past seasons). But Dirk's got way more of a case for being among the NBA's elite in 2012 than Kobe Bryant.

[parapooper]

Most experts would disagree with your characterization of Kobe, considering that he was #4 in MVP voting(not bad for a "bad teammate"), All-NBA 2nd team(not bad for a "below average defender"), along with All-NBA 1st team.

Feel free to start a "Most overrated player of the year" thread

Production-wise, he was 28/5/5 in the RS, and 30/5/4 in the PS.

28-30pts at < 53%TS - what's the value of that? Probably positive, but not by a lot.
5 rebounds - ok
1 more assist than TOs - meh
Don't see anything that screams top5 here.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Most experts would disagree with your characterization of Kobe, considering that he was #4 in MVP voting(not bad for a "bad teammate"), All-NBA 2nd team(not bad for a "below average defender"), along with All-NBA 1st team.

Production-wise, he was 28/5/5 in the RS, and 30/5/4 in the PS.

So your counter to mystic's post is to list a bunch of voter based awards and per game statistics?

Kobe in the playoffs:
.143 WS/48 (normalized and opponent adjusted box data, 23rd overall)
Don't have access to RAPM playoffs, so let's use APM:
-1.22 APM (3rd on his own team)

Compare to Dirk's playoffs:
.139 WS/48 (24th overall)
14.98 APM (1st overall)

So Dirk's giving you Kobe's box production and he's also dominating +/-. Now, I don't have Dirk in the top 5 (I think that RAPM overstates his value a bit, and he hasn't dominated across all metrics like he has in past seasons). But Dirk's got way more of a case for being among the NBA's elite in 2012 than Kobe Bryant.

The post you are quoting, isn't in reply to mystic, but to parapooper!

And I used the accolades to counter the assertions he made that Kobe was a "bad teammate", or a "below average defender". Those were opinions he had, and I countered with the consensus thoughts of most experts. It's hard to say a guy is a bad teammate, when he's a Top MVP candidate. Or a subpar defender when coaches put him on the All-D team.

Second, APM stats are not for player comparison to begin with. And even it's most outspoken supporters would agree that single year APM is very flawed to say the least.

Thirdly, on offense Kobe accounted for 37.1 PPG vs Dirk's 26.0 PPG. During the playoffs, Kobe accounted for 38.6 PPG, while Dirk accounted for 30.4 PPG. Considering their roles on their teams, who had the bigger impact? Clearly, offensively Kobe had the bigger role & impact on offense because he was the superior volume scorer, and facilitator. Defensively, Kobe was at least on par(though I would say Kobe was better). Dirk did have an extra rebound, but that doesn't negate the huge impact advantage on offense, or on defense.

So other than mythical APM numbers, how exactly was Dirk the better player. I mean I'm a Dirk fan, and put him as my #1 choice, while not even putting Kobe on the list last year. I truly think the guy is underrated, but let's be real, he wasn't a Top 5 player this year.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Most experts would disagree with your characterization of Kobe, considering that he was #4 in MVP voting(not bad for a "bad teammate"), All-NBA 2nd team(not bad for a "below average defender"), along with All-NBA 1st team.

Feel free to start a "Most overrated player of the year" thread

Production-wise, he was 28/5/5 in the RS, and 30/5/4 in the PS.

28-30pts at < 53%TS - what's the value of that? Probably positive, but not by a lot.
5 rebounds - ok
1 more assist than TOs - meh
Don't see anything that screams top5 here.

37.1 PPG of offensive production is always in the discussion for Top 5. When you throw in All-D 2nd team defense(along with top notch synergy stats), then that argument gets even stronger. Then you add in his team impact leading his team in both scoring and assists, while being #4 in MVP.

Yeh, I think that screams Top 5. If his name wasn't Kobe, then this wouldn't even be a question.

[MisterWestside]

The post you are quoting, isn't in reply to mystic, but to parapooper!

Fine then. That's the only thing you've gotten right in your post.

And I used the accolades to counter the assertions he made that Kobe was a "bad teammate", or a "below average defender".

What do awards have to do with being a "good teammate"? You can be a "good teammate" and be a crappy basketball player. Also, awards aren't are a good way to evaluate on-court performance. It's based on voting, and people who vote are usually 1) highly biased, and/or 2) misinformed (due to their use of flawed metrics).

Second, APM stats are not for player comparison to begin with.

Says who?

And even it's most outspoken supporters would agree that single year APM is very flawed to say the least.

And yet you have no problem using (the more flawed) raw per game statistics in your posts instead?

Thirdly, on offense Kobe accounted for 37.1 PPG vs Dirk's 26.0 PPG. During the playoffs, Kobe accounted for 38.6 PPG, while Dirk accounted for 30.4 PPG.

Did you just count assists for 2 points a piece and add that to the raw scoring average to get that number?

I won't even address this one. Rest assured that the logic behind this is simply flawed (one reason being that not all assists are created equal, for starters...)

If his name wasn't Kobe, then this wouldn't even be a question.

Yes, here comes the tired "You just don't like Kobe!" accusation

[parapooper]

Most experts would disagree with your characterization of Kobe, considering that he was #4 in MVP voting(not bad for a "bad teammate"), All-NBA 2nd team(not bad for a "below average defender"), along with All-NBA 1st team.

Feel free to start a "Most overrated player of the year" thread

Production-wise, he was 28/5/5 in the RS, and 30/5/4 in the PS.

28-30pts at < 53%TS - what's the value of that? Probably positive, but not by a lot.
5 rebounds - ok
1 more assist than TOs - meh
Don't see anything that screams top5 here.

37.1 PPG of offensive production is always in the discussion for Top 5. When you throw in All-D 2nd team defense(along with top notch synergy stats), then that argument gets even stronger. Then you add in his team impact leading his team in both scoring and assists, while being #4 in MVP.

You are just repeating the same meaningless arguments over and over:
points "produced" with the scoring efficiency and ast/TO ratio of an average player and voting results based on reputation and years of extreme overrating

Yeh, I think that screams Top 5. If his name wasn't Kobe, then this wouldn't even be a question.

So the 4 other players in your own top5 were all top4 in WS, top5 in PER and top6 in WS/48
but you put Kobe in there who was 35th, 16th and 71st respectively (<1000MP) and does nothing outside the boxscore above average.
And then you of all people accuse others of using different standards for Kobe vs. other players. That's like Kirstie Alley calling Ethiopians fat.

[An Unbiased Fan]

The post you are quoting, isn't in reply to mystic, but to parapooper!

Fine then. That's the only thing you've gotten right in your post.

And I used the accolades to counter the assertions he made that Kobe was a "bad teammate", or a "below average defender".

What do awards have to do with being a "good teammate"? You can be a "good teammate" and be a crappy basketball player. Also, awards aren't are a good way to evaluate on-court performance. It's based on voting, and people who vote are usually 1) highly biased, and/or 2) misinformed (due to their use of flawed metrics).

Second, APM stats are not for player comparison to begin with.

Says who?

And even it's most outspoken supporters would agree that single year APM is very flawed to say the least.

And yet you have no problem using (the more flawed) raw per game statistics in your posts instead?

Thirdly, on offense Kobe accounted for 37.1 PPG vs Dirk's 26.0 PPG. During the playoffs, Kobe accounted for 38.6 PPG, while Dirk accounted for 30.4 PPG.

Did you just count assists for 2 points a piece and add that to the raw scoring average to get that number?

I won't even address this one. Rest assured that the logic behind this is simply flawed (one reason being that not all assists are created equal, for starters...)

If his name wasn't Kobe, then this wouldn't even be a question.

Yes, here comes the tired "You just don't like Kobe!" accusation

Mister Westside, it seems you are only making a case against Kobe, not a case for Dirk. Again, I think Dirk has had a great career, but he simply wasn't a Top 5 player this year. APM numbers are inconsistent on a yearly basis, and it was created for lineup evaluation, not player comparison. Otherwise, why isn't Dirk your #1 choice??

I don't even want to rip on Dirk, because I respect the guy too much, but when Kobe is dropping 8+ PPG of production on offense, and playing on par, if not better defense, it's hard to see Dirk's case. I mean what did Dirk do in his role on Dallas, better than what Kobe did on LA? Dirk's a PF and his RPG, and REB% numbers are not much better than Kobe at SG.

And if you want more than just box score averages:

Kobe accounted for 36.2% PTS%/23.7% AST% in the RS, and 40.3% PTS%/24% AST% in the PS.

Dirk accounted for 32,8% PTS%/12.6% AST% in the RS, and 35.8% PTS%/10.4% AST% in the PS.

Kobe was clearly carrying a heavier load, and out producing Dirk.

[An Unbiased Fan]

You are just repeating the same meaningless arguments over and over:
points "produced" with the scoring efficiency and ast/TO ratio of an average player and voting results based on reputation and years of extreme overrating

Scoring efficiency goes down as volume increases. But even with that, Kobe was the superior facilitator. His AST% was double Dirk's in both the RS & PS. And I don't see how Dirk's a/t ratio was better either. His overall production and impact trumped Dirk's.

So the 4 other players in your own top5 were all top4 in WS, top5 in PER and top6 in WS/48
but you put Kobe in there who was 35th, 16th and 71st respectively (<1000MP) and does nothing outside the boxscore above average.
And then you of all people accuse others of using different standards for Kobe vs. other players. That's like Kirstie Alley calling Ethiopians fat.

I don't think I have accused anybody of anything. I'm just looking for their reasoning. And I haven't referenced PER or WS at all. You must be new, because I have never been a fan of those composite stats or how their formulated.

And here's the funny thing, Dirk wasn't in the Top 5 for PER last year, and I voted him #1. Kobe WAS in the Top 5 last year and I didn't have him in my Top 5. So I'm as consistent as they come. It's known that I think those numbers are flawed.

[MisterWestside]

You are just repeating the same meaningless arguments over and over:
points "produced" with the scoring efficiency and ast/TO ratio of an average player and voting results based on reputation and years of extreme overrating

Yep.

Mister Westside, it seems you are only making a case against Kobe, not a case for Dirk.

Actually, I'm echoing the sentiments of other posters here who believe that Dirk outperformed Kobe this season (which the more proven stat evidence shows).

APM numbers are inconsistent on a yearly basis, and it was created for lineup evaluation, not player comparison.

False. And while APM numbers benefit from larger sample sizes, it's still data you can use regardless.

Otherwise, why isn't Dirk your #1 choice??

Already explained this two posts ago.

I don't even want to rip on Dirk, because I respect the guy too much, but when Kobe is dropping 8+ PPG of production on offense, and playing on par, if not better defense, it's hard to see Dirk's case. I mean what did Dirk do in his role on Dallas, better than what Kobe did on LA

Dirk scored the ball more efficiently, and it offsets Kobe's VOLUME scoring. By the higher +/-, Dirk also helped his team in other ways not seen in the box score (not stopping the ball on offense, defense, etc). Your posts and replies are all based on raw per game data, and they are the most misleading statistics in the sport.

You must be new, because I have never been a fan of those composite stats or how their formulated.

Actually, you don't understand them. Because if you did, your posts would reflect that understanding.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I just posted data that wasn't raw per game data.

Seriously, why are you cherry picking lines out of my posts, and ignoring the data that shows fairly clearly that Kobe outplayed Dirk this year. APM numbers are based on rotations, systems, depth, and a host of other factors. But if you really believe Dirk was the best player this year, which using APM would suggest, then good luck with that.

But again, offensively, Kobe out produced Dirk...
Kobe accounted for 36.2% PTS%/23.7% AST% in the RS, and 40.3% PTS%/24% AST% in the PS.

Dirk accounted for 32,8% PTS%/12.6% AST% in the RS, and 35.8% PTS%/10.4% AST% in the PS.
^
Even if you say their scoring was on par due to Dirk's higher efficiency, Kobe still impacts the offense more due to his facilitating advantage which is rather significant.

Defensively, Kobe was very good according to Synergy stats, and NBA coaches who voted him to All-D 2nd team. That's acknowledgement from both stats & observation.

So where exactly did Dirk outplay Kobe? He does have a slight rebound advantage, but I would say Dirk's rebounding for a PF was very subpar this year. As a bigman, pulling down 6.8 rpg or 11.3% TREB% os fairly bad to say the least. Shawn Marion outrebounded Dirk as a SF for the Mavs.

Dirk was a borderline Top 10 player this year.

[MisterWestside]

I just posted data that wasn't raw per game data.

You're right. You did something even more ridiculous: you just took cumulative player points scored (along with points scored per assist) and divided it by team points scored You continue to hype up the idea that raw point totals give you adequate information about a player's impact, and it doesn't. Period. You can score all the points for your team and still be a crappy basketball player. Those numbers lack context (especially compared to other metrics like APM).

Assist and rebounding % is good to use, but again, they're just parts of the game. The things that Dirk brings to the table outweigh his relatively low assist and rebound numbers, and you can see it in his normalized/opponent-adjusted box and +/- metrics.

Defensively, Kobe was very good according to Synergy stats, and NBA coaches who voted him to All-D 2nd team. That's acknowledgement from both stats & observation.

Synergy is a good tool to use, but once again, there is alot more to defense than what you do in isolation (which I often see in posts around here that use Synergy data). Dirk comes out ahead in overall defense in a variety of metrics (Oliver, SPM, RAPM). And yes, observation backs this up as well

Dirk was a borderline Top 10 player this year.

That's okay. He was easily ahead of Kobe this season.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I just posted data that wasn't raw per game data.

You're right. You did something even more ridiculous: you just took cumulative player points scored (along with points scored per assist) and divided it by team points scored You continue to hype up the idea that raw point totals give you adequate information about a player's impact, and it doesn't. Period. You can score all the points for your team and still be a crappy basketball player. Those numbers lack context (especially compared to other metrics like APM).

Assist and rebounding % is good to use, but again, they're just parts of the game. The things that Dirk brings to the table outweigh his relatively low assist and rebound numbers, and you can see it in his normalized/opponent-adjusted box and +/- metrics.

LOL, so actually on court production shouldn't be a factor???

I mean I'm all for context to be sure, but to dismiss the obvious edge Kobe had in on court production is fairy amazing. You're valuing TEAM production with & without, over what the PLAYER actually produces.

So question, why in the World is Durant your #2? His APM pales in comparison to Dirk's. Kevin Love has the APM, PER, and WS/48, so why isn't he in your Top 5??? Please explain this oversight.

Synergy is a good tool to use, but once again, there is alot more to defense than what you do in isolation (which I often see in posts around here that use Synergy data). Dirk comes out ahead in overall defense in a variety of metrics (Oliver, SPM, RAPM). And yes, observation backs this up as well

Apparently....Dirk was also a better defender than KG too.....and better than DPOY Chandler.

[MisterWestside]

I mean I'm all for context to be sure, but to dismiss the obvious edge Kobe had in on court production is fairy amazing.

If you truly cared about context, you would know better than to be "impressed" by "percentage of team points scored".

You're arguing in circles.

You're valuing TEAM production with & without, over what the PLAYER actually produces.

Nope. Never did that once here.

So question, why in the World is Durant your #2? His APM pales in comparison to Dirk's. Kevin Love has the APM, PER, and WS/48, so why isn't he in your Top 5??? Please explain this oversight.

For Durant: I don't look at one statistic, and Durant has performed well in all of them in both the regular season and playoffs (and with more minutes played).

For Love: He didn't play any playoff games. Not his fault, but the others were able to provide a greater sample size of their production, especially against better competition.

Apparently....Dirk was also a better defender than KG too.....and better than DPOY Chandler.

Except he wasn't. I was just comparing him to Kobe.

[mysticbb]

With all due respect, I don't see how Dirk's ranking in 2011 relates to 2012.

I wanted to explain why Nowitzki is seen worse by a lot of people than he really was. People seem to compare players not only to the league average of the respective season but also to the version of such player in the past. Nowitzki made some crazy shots in 2011, shots he also took in 2012 but missed more of them. So, obviously, Nowitzki in 2011 was better than in 2012. But overall the league got worse too, thus the difference to the league average did not change that much.

His play, especially in the playoffs, is nowhere near what it was last season.

What? He was basically the same in the playoffs. He missed a couple of shots and took more bailout shots than usual, but overall he played not that far off. You just have to see that the Mavericks played over 30 points worse offensively when Nowitzki was off the court. The unfortunate thing or Nowitzki was, that the Mavericks wanted to give Westbrook and Ibaka shots, while those two players just converted them at a higher rate when Nowitzki was on the court. Westbrook was a 55 TS% scorer with Nowitzki on the court, he was 43 TS% without Nowitzki. Durant was 60 TS% with Nowitzki, without him 47 TS%. Ibaka made 44% of his 2pt jumpers while Nowitzki was on the court, he made 25% when Nowitzki was off. The Thunder overall took some bad shots which went in, that's the very reason why the Thunder were able to outscore the Mavericks when Nowitzki was on the court.
Otherwise Nowitzki played essential the same, just with a different outcome due to the fact that the team around him was worse than last season and he didn't have the luck needed.

I just don't see how that numbers trumps everything else, and propels Dirk into the Top 5. We would be hard pressed to find anyone who felt Dirk was a Top 5 player at any point of this year.

RAPM doesn't trump everything else, otherwise Nowitzki would be the #1. I combine that with production and efficiency while taking playing time into account. And at that Nowitzki ended up 4th overall slightly (VERY slightly) ahead of Garnett.

Here is the post I made: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1184405&start=45#p32097304

The last 6 games didn't change the numbers much. And as you can see, Bryant is way down. From 2006 to 2010 he was always between +5 and +6, last season +3.7, this season +2.9. And we can see that Bryant plays worse in average than in those other seasons. For sure, in some games Bryant can show a very similar level, but he became very inconsistent and his defense slipped completely.
Nowitzki on the other end lead the league with +6.4 last season. That is basically the same level as he had in 2005 to 2008. He slipped down in 2009 and 2010 to about +4 and I didn't have him among the Top5 in either of those seasons, if you can remember that.
And when you watch him play during the last 47 games and compare that to the average from last season, he was pretty much the same player, just that the team around him played worse.

Except Kobe was a Top 3-5 MVP candidate all year long.

Because he scored a lot of points, not because he actually played at that level. He helped his team offensively, but he didn't do anything defensively. You can't even argue with some crazy clutch scoring volume, because even in that aspect Bryant wasn't anything close to his former versions. The Lakers played two points better offensively with him on the court, that's it. Compare that to other players like Paul, Nash, Nowitzki, James, Garnett for example, those players made between +9 and +15 difference on offense. And all that while with the exception of Nash all of those players were above average defenders, while Bryant was not.

He was clearly the best SG this year, even by the words of most Miami heat fans. Wade is still talented, BUT are we really going to ignore that he was hurt this year, and only played 49 games? Are we going to ignore his mediocre playoffs?

Wade played worse than in previous season, but then again, he was better overall than Bryant. As I said, I wouldn't select Wade among the Top5 either, but his playing level was indeed higher than Bryant's.

I didn't even put Kobe in the Top 5 last year

Sorry, but in that case I must have confused you with someone using that Eff Dif as the deciding factor. But I remember you are arguing for Bryant over Wade with that, is at least that correct?

Overall, both Dirk & Wade were 3rd team. Neither were Top 9 in MVP voting, and both had down years production wise. I have no issue with them being Top 10....but Top 5? Really?

Those are voting processes in which various things come into play. Nowitzki was 6th last season in MVP voting and should have ended up higher for example. And Nowitzki not making the 2nd team while Griffin and Love are making it, was a joke. Love has somewhat of an argument given his production level, but Love also missed 11 games while his overall impact was clearly lower than Nowitzki's. And Bryant made the 1st team based on what? I would have picked 5 guards over him, while I'm inclinded to even take Harden over Bryant was the season awards, which would have left Bryant out. Honestly, Bryant got those votes, because he looked a bit better than last season and scored a lot of points, while in fact he was not better than last season in terms of playing level and his points scored and created didn't have a high impact anymore.

It is typical to overrate scorers, especially when they happen to be on teams with a better record. But as I showed the Lakers didn't play much different when Bryant was out. They were somewhat worse offensively, but also better defensively. If Bryant would have been out for the season, the Lakers would have likely fought for the 8th seed at worst, playing two points better than that, doesn't change the championship odds a lot. And despite winning a game against the Thunder, the Lakers overall played them worse than the Mavericks did. Let a healthy Nowitzki play against the Nuggets in the first round, we would likely talk about 30+ ppg on 60+ TS%, while the Mavericks sweep the Nuggets. Nowitzki had 28/8/4 per 36 on 62 TS% against them this season. Compare that to Bryant's 26/4/4.5 per 36 on 53 TS% during the playoffs. No, sorry, I'm not impressed by high volume on average efficiency, especially when there is nothing to back up the claim that it would have still had a high impact.