OT: Morey doin work

[moocow007]

if the clippers didn't draft blake, does chris paul consider them ?

And instead drafted a lesser player or bunch of lesser players? No. Paul is part of the Lebron James crew. They all are looking to team with one or more other "superstars". No way Paul would have been ok with the Clippers if they didn't have a superstar caliber player like Griffin.

[ibraheim718]

I'm trying to think of a team that didn't have a star and wallowed in mediocrity till it finally worked out.

You'll be thinking for a long time then because I can't remember one... Detroit was a 50 win team I believe before they fired Carlisle and got Wallace. That's not mediocre.

[ibraheim718]

if the clippers didn't draft blake, does chris paul consider them ?

Oh hell no... Good point.

[moocow007]

I'm trying to think of a team that didn't have a star and wallowed in mediocrity till it finally worked out.

That wallowed in mediocrity till it finally worked out with no stars? Good luck. Even the "Bad Boy" Pistons of the 80's were loaded with talent (lead by a top 50 all time player in Isiah Thomas). The Houston Rockets during the Ewing era had arguably one of the top 3 centers to ever play the game. The Utah Jazz who never won a championship but always was right there had two top 50 players and arguably the perfect fitting duo to ever play the game. The Cavaliers of the 80's (another team that didn't win it all) were loaded with talent. Same with the Sonics and the Blazers of the early 90's. The Nets when they went to the championships were loaded with talent. The Knicks that competed but never won during the Ewing era and shortly after were talent rich. The Suns and Sixers with Barkley (still king of the superstar that never won diddly) were one of the best teams because of him. And on and on.

That wallowed in mediocrity till it finally worked out with a star (be it draft or trade or signing)? A lot more likely. Pretty much every team that ever amounted to much of anything that were seriously in contention for deep playoff runs had that guy or guys who were among the tops in the league at their position at the time.

It's extremely, extremely difficult to be good if the talent isn't there. Sure absolutely you need team player, balance and consistent effort on both ends but if there's just not enough talent on the team then all the "rah rah" team work in the world won't amount to much. The Raptors played very well last season as a team, they were among the best defensive teams in the NBA (top 5 in opponents PPG and lowest FG% allowed) and they almost always kept games close. Why? Because they played hard, they defended and they played as a team. But in the end they just did not have enough talent to swing those close losses to wins.

[cgmw]

Again, Morey's in a great spot (relatively speaking). For a team with no superstar to build around he has two options:

1) Use his stockpile of assets to lure big names like Dwight and/or Deron;
2) Use his veterans to acquire even more young players and build through the lotto.

For the life of me, I don't understand how people can criticize what Morey's doing. What choice has he had? If he did that Moocow trade (see above) bringing in Gasol, then that would be horrendous and he should be fired. But it seems to me like he's poised to get a star player by hook (FA/trade) or by crook (tank), which is really all you can hope for as a middling team in the NBA.

[god shammgod]

Again, Morey's in a great spot (relatively speaking). For a team with no superstar to build around he has two options:

1) Use his stockpile of assets to lure big names like Dwight and/or Deron;
2) Use his veterans to acquire even more young players and build through the lotto.

For the life of me, I don't understand how people can criticize what Morey's doing. What choice has he had? If he did that Moocow trade (see above) bringing in Gasol, then that would be horrendous and he should be fired. But it seems to me like he's poised to get a star player by hook (FA/trade) or by crook (tank), which is really all you can hope for as a middling team in the NBA.

big names are not lured by assets. they're lured by other big names.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

Again, Morey's in a great spot (relatively speaking). For a team with no superstar to build around he has two options:

1) Use his stockpile of assets to lure big names like Dwight and/or Deron;
2) Use his veterans to acquire even more young players and build through the lotto.

For the life of me, I don't understand how people can criticize what Morey's doing. What choice has he had? If he did that Moocow trade (see above) bringing in Gasol, then that would be horrendous and he should be fired. But it seems to me like he's poised to get a star player by hook (FA/trade) or by crook (tank), which is really all you can hope for as a middling team in the NBA.

The problem is, he's stated that the owner won't let him go that route.

[cgmw]

Again, Morey's in a great spot (relatively speaking). For a team with no superstar to build around he has two options:

1) Use his stockpile of assets to lure big names like Dwight and/or Deron;
2) Use his veterans to acquire even more young players and build through the lotto.

For the life of me, I don't understand how people can criticize what Morey's doing. What choice has he had? If he did that Moocow trade (see above) bringing in Gasol, then that would be horrendous and he should be fired. But it seems to me like he's poised to get a star player by hook (FA/trade) or by crook (tank), which is really all you can hope for as a middling team in the NBA.

big names are not lured by assets. they're lured by other big names.

Asset: Cap Space.
Asset: Expiring Contracts for trades.
Asset: 7 rookie contracts for trades.
Asset: Future picks for trades.

[GONYK]

Again, Morey's in a great spot (relatively speaking). For a team with no superstar to build around he has two options:

1) Use his stockpile of assets to lure big names like Dwight and/or Deron;
2) Use his veterans to acquire even more young players and build through the lotto.

For the life of me, I don't understand how people can criticize what Morey's doing. What choice has he had? If he did that Moocow trade (see above) bringing in Gasol, then that would be horrendous and he should be fired. But it seems to me like he's poised to get a star player by hook (FA/trade) or by crook (tank), which is really all you can hope for as a middling team in the NBA.

The problem is, he's stated that the owner won't let him go that route.

And option 1 isn't happening

[god shammgod]

Again, Morey's in a great spot (relatively speaking). For a team with no superstar to build around he has two options:

1) Use his stockpile of assets to lure big names like Dwight and/or Deron;
2) Use his veterans to acquire even more young players and build through the lotto.

For the life of me, I don't understand how people can criticize what Morey's doing. What choice has he had? If he did that Moocow trade (see above) bringing in Gasol, then that would be horrendous and he should be fired. But it seems to me like he's poised to get a star player by hook (FA/trade) or by crook (tank), which is really all you can hope for as a middling team in the NBA.

big names are not lured by assets. they're lured by other big names.

Asset: Cap Space.
Asset: Expiring Contracts for trades.
Asset: 7 rookie contracts for trades.
Asset: Future picks for trades.

and no star cares about any of that. they don't want to sign and hope you work it out. they want to know that they're in a good spot when they sign on the dotted line. why is dwight not interested in them ? they have all those assets.

[cgmw]

and no star cares about any of that. they don't want to sign and hope you work it out. they want to know that they're in a good spot when they sign on the dotted line. why is dwight not interested in them ? they have all those assets.

Dude, why is this so hard? YOu're one of the smartest people on here.

Theoretically, Morey is positioning himself to trade for Dwight while outright signing Deron. Problem is, he's having trouble convincing either of them to go for it. BUt it's not for lack of...

ASSETS.

[GONYK]

and no star cares about any of that. they don't want to sign and hope you work it out. they want to know that they're in a good spot when they sign on the dotted line. why is dwight not interested in them ? they have all those assets.

Dude, why is this so hard? YOu're one of the smartest people on here.

Theoretically, Morey is positioning himself to trade for Dwight while outright signing Deron. Problem is, he's having trouble convincing either of them to go for it. BUt it's not for lack of...

ASSETS.

Yea, but if he can't get them, who cares how many assets he has. That is what everyone is saying. Assets are meaningless until you cash them in for something.

[ibraheim718]

and no star cares about any of that. they don't want to sign and hope you work it out. they want to know that they're in a good spot when they sign on the dotted line. why is dwight not interested in them ? they have all those assets.

Dude, why is this so hard? YOu're one of the smartest people on here.

Theoretically, Morey is positioning himself to trade for Dwight while outright signing Deron. Problem is, he's having trouble convincing either of them to go for it. BUt it's not for lack of...

ASSETS.

Yea, but if he can't get them, who cares how many assets he has. That is what everyone is saying. Assets are meaningless until you cash them in for something.

I can't believe he's admitting that it's an unfruitful attempt at acquiring a game changing star while still arguing for him to keep doing it?

[cgmw]

and no star cares about any of that. they don't want to sign and hope you work it out. they want to know that they're in a good spot when they sign on the dotted line. why is dwight not interested in them ? they have all those assets.

Dude, why is this so hard? YOu're one of the smartest people on here.

Theoretically, Morey is positioning himself to trade for Dwight while outright signing Deron. Problem is, he's having trouble convincing either of them to go for it. BUt it's not for lack of...

ASSETS.

Yea, but if he can't get them, who cares how many assets he has. That is what everyone is saying. Assets are meaningless until you cash them in for something.

All I'm saying (again) is he's in a good spot because he has the flexibility to go for plan A) which is ATTEMPTING to sign Deron and trade for Dwight; or Plan B) which is move Scola for even more young players/draft picks and rebuild proper.

If Morey can't convince stars to sign in Houston, then he will likely get fired. I've never said anything except that he's done an excellent job maneuvering for the flexibility to either A) get superstars or B) rebuild.

Nobody here seems to have any kind of solution for doing anything else. It's only June, so option B (tanking) is still very much alive and well. He has until February 2013 IMO before he has to worry about it being too late to tank.

Having vets like Scola & KMart actually helps the development of young players. Why everyone is in such a rush to have Morey deal his vets is a mystery to me. I suppose they need to make a decision on Dragic pretty soon, so there's that.

[Kampuchea]

it seems that the Knicks fans like the draft for Houston more than the houston fans do. This article agrees with my feeling on their draft:
http://www.examiner.com/article/rockets-draft-grade-meh

The truth is they are all nice players who might develop into rotation guys. None will be all-stars. In other words, the Rockets picked up more of what they already had.

They tried to trade up, but failed. They tried to land a big name player, but failed. Gosh, they were close, but came up short.

Again.

The Rockets are stuck on the mediocrity train. The team is no better today than it was when the season ended. In fact, they might be worse, considering they don't have a center on the roster. It's hard to fault GM Daryl Morey, because he has been trying to set the team up for a big move since the Yao Ming days. He had made one with Pau Gasol, but David Stern essentially hosed him. Since, they have pursued Dwight Howard, among others, and haven't been able to get anything done.

It's easy to see why. The Rockets are a nice little team. With nice little players. Nicely stuck in ninth in the Western Conference. They don't have a single player that other teams lust after. They just have a lot of really good supporting parts.

The only way to get a great player is through trade, which is tough, or to bottom out and get high picks, which requires several years of sucking. You could argue that's better than several years of mediocrity. They won't make a splash in free agency, because big free agents want to play in more high profile places.

So the end result? The Rockets are right where they have been the past three years. A nice little team.

A nice little mediocre team.

The Rockets had three mediocre picks Thursday night. They got three nice players, all of which they already had on the roster. Unless there is another move pending, Rockets fans can expect more of the same in 2012-13.

Close to the playoffs, but not quite good enough. A nice little team.

Again.

[god shammgod]

and no star cares about any of that. they don't want to sign and hope you work it out. they want to know that they're in a good spot when they sign on the dotted line. why is dwight not interested in them ? they have all those assets.

Dude, why is this so hard? YOu're one of the smartest people on here.

Theoretically, Morey is positioning himself to trade for Dwight while outright signing Deron. Problem is, he's having trouble convincing either of them to go for it. BUt it's not for lack of...

ASSETS.

well then what do those assets do for him ? nothing. that's the point.

[RutgersBJJ]

What assets does he have? Once again, the Rockets are not the Knicks. There are no potential all-stars on the Rockets roster, no high ceiling players, nothing.

The best asset on the Rockets is Kyle Lowry and for whatever reason he has little value around the league (they weren't able to package him with picks to move up when they were clearly targeting Drummond).


Carmelo Anthony is the only star who has been traded for mediocre rotation-level players who have never posted PER's over 18. This happened because Melo demanded to go to the team he was traded to. Houston doesn't even have enough assets to get Pau Gasol, let alone a superstar that can single-handedly win games in the playoffs and get you there.


There's no Kanter on the Rockets, no Favors, no top 5 picks, no Eric Gordon, no T'Wolves unprotected lottery pick, no Bynum, no Gasol, nothing. They have no assets for real quality. They have assets if they want to trade for a barely above-average career loser player like Kevin Martin, but they aren't getting a first option and will be lucky to get a 2nd option.


Activity doesn't equal success. Rockets have done nothing. Their ceiling is the 8th seed, I guess their fans should be happy about being the poor-man's Denver?

This is the same guy who traded the draft rights to Batum for Joey Dorsey and then raved about how he was the best defensive player in the draft and being a 6'5 center wasn't that big of a deal and not undersized.

[god shammgod]

it seems that the Knicks fans like the draft for Houston more than the houston fans do. This article agrees with my feeling on their draft:
http://www.examiner.com/article/rockets-draft-grade-meh

The truth is they are all nice players who might develop into rotation guys. None will be all-stars. In other words, the Rockets picked up more of what they already had.

They tried to trade up, but failed. They tried to land a big name player, but failed. Gosh, they were close, but came up short.

Again.

The Rockets are stuck on the mediocrity train. The team is no better today than it was when the season ended. In fact, they might be worse, considering they don't have a center on the roster. It's hard to fault GM Daryl Morey, because he has been trying to set the team up for a big move since the Yao Ming days. He had made one with Pau Gasol, but David Stern essentially hosed him. Since, they have pursued Dwight Howard, among others, and haven't been able to get anything done.

It's easy to see why. The Rockets are a nice little team. With nice little players. Nicely stuck in ninth in the Western Conference. They don't have a single player that other teams lust after. They just have a lot of really good supporting parts.

The only way to get a great player is through trade, which is tough, or to bottom out and get high picks, which requires several years of sucking. You could argue that's better than several years of mediocrity. They won't make a splash in free agency, because big free agents want to play in more high profile places.

So the end result? The Rockets are right where they have been the past three years. A nice little team.

A nice little mediocre team.

The Rockets had three mediocre picks Thursday night. They got three nice players, all of which they already had on the roster. Unless there is another move pending, Rockets fans can expect more of the same in 2012-13.

Close to the playoffs, but not quite good enough. A nice little team.

Again.

that sums up what a lot of us are saying.

[cgmw]

I can't believe he's admitting that it's an unfruitful attempt at acquiring a game changing star while still arguing for him to keep doing it?

It's thus far unfruitful, sure. But my entire point is that he's done a great job creating flexibility. Meaning he's not rigidly locked in to the superstar route. His only longterm contract (Scola) is very moveable, and Kmart is expiring. Flexibility means he can go in any number of directions instead of being painted into corners like we were for the better part of two decades preceding Walsh.

[nykballa2k4]

To the people bashing Morey, what would you have him do exactly?

After 16 pages of this garbage, I still don't understand how he's screwing up anything except the recruiting aspect.

Morey's flaw isn't roster manipulation, it's that he can't get Deron and Dwight to commit. Certainly you'd think he has the assets Orlando is looking for in a trade. And now he has like 7 players drafted in the early-to-mid 2011 and 2012 first rounds. If he gets fired it's not because his roster is in disarray, it's because he apparently can't recruit to save his life.

Morey should either make an all in move, for Josh Smith etc and build around proven talents smith and Martin, or do the exact reverse, and trade the best players for future compensation.

Who needs a point guard?

Portland needs one, they spent a pick on an unproven dude.
Toronto needs a good one
Philly could stand an upgrade to Jrue
Orlando surely a buyer.

If I am the Rockets, I call OKC, ask them about a deal involving Lowry for Ibaka, when that folds, see what other offers are on the table.

Kevin Martin is a decent player, what could/would the MAgic give up for him?? How about the CLippers? The Celtics??

Either trade up or down the ladder, rather than hoping you can built a 2 year window on Pau Gasol.

I can make a list of literally 15 trades that would accomplish either side of these anti-treadmill goals. Personally, I think the mission should be to become young and athletic.

Examples deals for my above scenario:
1) sign Dragic
2) Trade Kyle Lowry to the Pacers, Collison to OKC each sending a future first to Hou
3) Scola and Kevin Martin for Glen Davis, Nelson and a protected 1st round pick
4) Ship Nelson to Portland in the same deal for 2nd round pick and Shawne Williams contract

Starting lineup:
Davis
Morris/White/Brockman/Leuer
Parsons/Williams
Lamb/Livingston
Dragic

With available cap space: Off a team, like Dallas the opportunity to trade a pick with a bad contract
(Warriors Beidrins for cap space??)

After these deals: 1st rounders: HOU(1-4 range), IND(20-24 range), OKC(28-30 range), ORL(18-22 range). 2nd rounders HOU(31-33 range), POR(40-50 range)