UEFA Euro 2012: Spain still the Champions of Europe

Post #601 » by **5DOM** » Mon Jul 2, 2012 1:09 pm

I do wonder how Iniesta will be remembered. Great, great player, but he doesn't nearly get the attention that someone of his caliber deserves because of Messi and Ronaldo.

lobishome · Post #602 » by **lobishome** » Mon Jul 2, 2012 1:21 pm

5DOM wrote:I do wonder how Iniesta will be remembered. Great, great player, but he doesn't nearly get the attention that someone of his caliber deserves because of Messi and Ronaldo.

Iniesta will be behind of Pele, Maradona, Cruyff and Messi, together Platini, Di Stefano or Beckenbaüer.

Socrates, Zico, Ardiles, Cristiano Ronaldo, Ronaldo Nazario Da Lima, Mathaus or Rummenigge are a step lower than him.

Point forward · Post #603 » by **Point forward** » Mon Jul 2, 2012 1:25 pm

5DOM wrote:I do wonder how Iniesta will be remembered. Great, great player, but he doesn't nearly get the attention that someone of his caliber deserves because of Messi and Ronaldo.

IMHO, Iniesta (ditto: Xavi) will be remembered like Sampras in tennis, Indurain in cycling, or Duncan in basketball: Quiet storms who are both historically great and historically successful.

lobishome wrote: Iniesta will be behind of Pele, Maradona, Cruyff and Messi, together Platini, Di Stefano or Beckenbaüer. Socrates, Zico, Ardiles, Cristiano Ronaldo, Ronaldo Nazario Da Lima, Mathaus or Rummenigge are a step lower than him.

IMHO, that is about right. I could even argue that Iniesta is greater than both Messi and Platini - you wouldn't necessarily agree, but I could say that with a straight face.

_SRV_ · Post #604 » by **_SRV_** » Mon Jul 2, 2012 2:03 pm

The closest comparison to Inniesta in my mind is Laudrop, but Inniesta had bigger international success, so this might cause him to be remembered differently.

_SRV_ · Post #605 » by **_SRV_** » Mon Jul 2, 2012 2:23 pm

Fernando Torres ends up this season with, FA cup, Champions league title, Euro title and the golden boot, what a great performance

lukekarts · Post #606 » by **lukekarts** » Mon Jul 2, 2012 3:15 pm

The positives for me as a Chelsea fan, are that Fernando will go into next season full of confidence, which is great. He's looked sharp and his link up play with Mata is coming along nicely.

As for Iniesta, he'll probably be ranked in history similar to guys like Rivelino, or more recently Pavel Nedved. Guys remembered for being successful, top tier players in their day, but never quite the best.

Post #607 » by **Next Coming** » Mon Jul 2, 2012 4:34 pm

Really great shot for Spain winning WC2014.

Post #608 » by **magik9113** » Mon Jul 2, 2012 8:35 pm

I hope my man Pirlo gets remembered as one of the greats as well

sergiio_88 · Post #609 » by **sergiio_88** » Mon Jul 2, 2012 11:02 pm

In my opinion, Iniesta will be a step lower than Zidane.

How do you think Casillas and Xavi will be remembered?

lukekarts · Post #610 » by **lukekarts** » Mon Jul 2, 2012 11:41 pm

sergiio_88 wrote:In my opinion, Iniesta will be a step lower than Zidane.

How do you think Casillas and Xavi will be remembered?

Casillas alongside Buffon, Schmeichal, Yashin, Banks etc in the goalkeeping greats. Xavi is a class above Zidane, IMO. Less flash but more effective more often.

Post #611 » by **5DOM** » Tue Jul 3, 2012 12:17 am

Zidane vs Xavi is difficult because they played different positions with the former playing the more advanced role. I think Xavi is the better passer of the ball and usually more consistent, but otherwise Zidane was better IMO. His flair probably helps too.

Stannis · Post #612 » by **Stannis** » Tue Jul 3, 2012 12:32 am

This tournament was not that enjoyable to watch, especially compared to the 2008 one. The final did not make up for the lack of enjoyment either. I am not saying Spain is boring or anything. It was just that there was no team that could beat them. There were a level ahead of every team with their talent and experience.

Post #613 » by **Slava** » Tue Jul 3, 2012 3:41 am

Don't think I can put Xavi or Iniesta in the same bracket as Ronaldo/Messi/Zidane/Ronaldinho etc. They are both very good players but the other 4 are good enough to win a game on their own on a given day.

Xavi and Iniesta are extremely consistent though, kind of like Scholes/Laudrup/Pirlo/Maldini etc. Iniesta in my opinion has the ability to move past his current position because he has a lot more flair than Xavi and plays a more advanced free role on attack but he needs to play on a team where he's the best player and the team as a whole is more dependent on him.

I wouldn't be surprised if Xavi won the Ballon d'or this year over Ronaldo. He's been getting the underrated label for a little too long.

Post #614 » by **magik9113** » Tue Jul 3, 2012 4:07 am

I can't rate Iniesta/Xavi ahead of Zidane. But considering Iniesta is 28 there's still a lot of playing to be done

_SRV_ · Post #615 » by **_SRV_** » Tue Jul 3, 2012 8:07 am

What has Zidane done to be clearly above them? Zidane was a much bigger star than them, they both are better players and had more impact than Zidane.

lukekarts · Post #616 » by **lukekarts** » Tue Jul 3, 2012 9:04 am

I think both Zidane and Ronaldinho get massively overrated because of their flair.

They both had great moments, but they never had the consistency to deliver throughout an entire season.

Zidane's Real Madrid teams underperformed in La Liga, considering the quality in the squad included Casillas, Carlos, Hierro, Makelele, Figo, Raul, Morientes. They went from Champions to 3rd, the year he arrived, before narrowly beating Real Sociedad the year they signed Ronaldo. They then finished 4th, and 2nd & 2nd in respective seasons.

People love to look at the good moments, but for a team nicknamed the 'Galacticos' they were a failure. Barcelona's recent teams have been far more successful because Xavi, Iniesta and Messi delivered week in week out. They've been labelled boring but the results speak for themselves.

And then when you review Zidane's production - 2001-2006 for Real - 155 games, 37 goals, 34 assists is nothing compared to the greats of today.

When people say he carried France to a World Cup, I also vehemently disagree - that team packed the likes of Lizarazu, Blanc, Desailly, Thuram, Vieira, Deschamps, Djorkaeff, Pires, Henry, Trezeguet... plus Candela, Leboeuf, Petit, Dugarry....

I appreciate it's an unpopoluar opinion but nobody has yet made an argument that has compelled me to agree

_SRV_ · Post #617 » by **_SRV_** » Tue Jul 3, 2012 10:53 am

Add to that that Juventus also didn't win serie A in his last 3 years, and his huge price tag was mainly because of the amazing Euro 2000 run.
in 98' he exploded in the final, but was suspended from 3 games, and was not by any means outstanding in the quarter finals or the semis, his explosion came in the Finals.

What Xavi and Inniesta did in the last 5 years alone, should put them ahead of Zidan'e career accomplishments, the argument of team Vs a single star doesn't apply, both France and Real are great teams w/o Zidane, arguably no less great than Barce/Spain minus Iniesta.

lobishome · Post #618 » by **lobishome** » Tue Jul 3, 2012 11:19 am

Zidane with another mentality could be at the same level than Iniesta or Platini, even higher. He was a dude with a lot of great habilities but he had a "dark side", the mind. He was this kind of dude who could to win a world championship for you ... or lose it. He hasn't played well with a continual form along his career due this "dark side". Maradona neither, but he flew higher than him at his best moments and the argie team in 1986 was average, a lot poorer than the 2008 French team.

Ronaldinho was unstoppable along two years, I never had seen something like that, but he had a mosquito brain. He had tendency to gain weight due his physical constitution, in fact his brothers were fat dudes, but he liked the night and the samba and when he left Barcelona, he was 28, the medical services of the team said he was irrecoverable for the professional soccer. The time gave them the reason.

Post #619 » by **5DOM** » Tue Jul 3, 2012 11:51 am

First of all, while Xavi and Iniesta bring it week-in-week-out, Zidane always did show up in big games. What helps the Barcelona duo though is that they have basically been playing with the same midfield in the same system for years. They also have the benefit of playing next to each other and of course Messi who is one of the greatest of all time. If you compare the parts, sure Zidane's teams MIGHT compare to Barca's, but sometimes sum of the parts is greater than the whole. Greatness of Xavi and Iniesta certainly help with that, but so does the Barca system. Also the talent of Galacticos seems to be overrated. The only positions the Galacticos were clearly better than the current Barca team are the LB and GK positions, and Real's defense as a whole was a complete joke compared to the back-four of Abidal-Puyol-Pique-Alvez anyway. If Barca had Carlos-Bravo-Pavon-Salgado instead, they are looking at 0 CL title and 1 La Liga title out of last 5 themselves.There would be no way of checking, but I think if you swapped Zidane with Iniesta, the former's team would have been more successful. Xavi might have helped Real more considering he's the central midfield engine that Real lacked.

Ronaldinho was amazing to watch for a season or two, but he doesn't belong in this discussion IMO.

_SRV_ · Post #620 » by **_SRV_** » Tue Jul 3, 2012 12:30 pm

5DOM wrote:First of all, while Xavi and Iniesta bring it week-in-week-out, Zidane always did show up in big games.

Inniesa usually shows up for big games, scored the goal to beat Holland, scored the goal against Chelsea in CL SF, created the attack of 1st goal against Italy..
Zidane doesn't always show up for big games, he lost to underdog Durtmund in CL finals, Greece in Euro quarter finals, was part of the 2002 french fiasco (partly he was injured), in addition to that,Zidane, the clutch player:
-Was suspended from 3 games in 98 WC
-Was Ejected in 2006 Finals
-Was suspended from 5 games in 2001 CL.
All for losing his cool and responding violently.

5DOM wrote: What helps the Barcelona duo though is that they have basically been playing with the same midfield in the same system for years. They also have the benefit of playing next to each other and of course Messi who is one of the greatest of all time. If you compare the parts, sure Zidane's teams MIGHT compare to Barca's, but sometimes sum of the parts is greater than the whole. Greatness of Xavi and Iniesta certainly help with that, but so does the Barca system. Also the talent of Galacticos seems to be overrated. The only positions the Galacticos were clearly better than the current Barca team are the LB and GK positions, and Real's defense as a whole was a complete joke compared to the back-four of Abidal-Puyol-Pique-Alvez anyway. There would be no way of checking, but I think if you swapped Zidane with Iniesta, the former's team would have been more successful. Xavi might have helped Real more considering he's the central midfield engine that Real lacked.

Zidane lost Serie A with Juventus for 3 straight years, with the money they got for him they brought Nedved and Bufon, and walla, 4 titles in 5 years, 1 out of 5 with Real is a disgrace, there is no other way to put it...

The team always plays a huge role, Christiano Ronaldo had a huge success with ManU and big success with Real, he has an arguably better club career than Zidane, he didn't have the chance to play next to a great french team and win the WC in France, and later Euro, for that reason no one will remember CR7 among the greats, but frankly, he did more than Zidane, he's practically penalized for being Purtogese, exactly like Laudrop, who was a complete genius but was Danish, at a similar argument, replace Ronaldo with Zidane and all France, Juve and Real will have better results, there is no end to that argument.

At the end of the day you are measured based on your accomplishments with your respective team, Zidane is hugely overrated in the standard.