UEFA Euro 2012: Spain still the Champions of Europe

[5DOM]

First of all, while Xavi and Iniesta bring it week-in-week-out, Zidane always did show up in big games.

Inniesa usually shows up for big games, scored the goal to beat Holland, scored the goal against Chelsea in CL SF, created the attack of 1st goal against Italy..
Zidane doesn't always show up for big games, he lost to underdog Durtmund in CL finals, Greece in Euro quarter finals, was part of the 2002 french fiasco (partly he was injured), in addition to that,Zidane, the clutch player:
-Was suspended from 3 games in 98 WC
-Was Ejected in 2006 Finals
-Was suspended from 5 games in 2001 CL.
All for losing his cool and responding violently.

I didn't mean that Iniesta doesn't show up in big games, but we can do the same thing with Iniesta. Iniesta lost to underdogs Inter and Chelsea in 10 and 12 CL and barely played a role in 2006 WC.

I don't really care for suspensions and injuries because that's got nothing to do with his in-game performance.

Zidane lost Serie A with Juventus for 3 straight years, with the money they got for him they brought Nedved and Bufon, and walla, 4 titles in 5 years, 1 out of 5 with Real is a disgrace, there is no other way to put it...

Serie A in those three years was more competitive than La Liga last 5 years, and it's not Zidane's fault that his Juventus team wasn't as stacked as this Barca team. Also in his last 2 seasons, they lost out by only 1 and 2 points. They actually had more points in Zidane's last season than in 01/02 season, so it's not like they great improved after Zidane's departure either. It's 2 titles in 5 years btw.

And again, what was disgraceful is Real's defense. It's hard to win multiple trophies with the likes of Raul Bravo, Pavon and Salgado. They should have at least kept Maka.

The team always plays a huge role, Christiano Ronaldo had a huge success with ManU and big success with Real, he has an arguably better club career than Zidane, he didn't have the chance to play next to a great french team and win the WC in France, and later Euro, for that reason no one will remember CR7 among the greats, but frankly, he did more than Zidane, he's practically penalized for being Purtogese, exactly like Laudrop, who was a complete genius but was Danish, at a similar argument, replace Ronaldo with Zidane and all France, Juve and Real will have better results, there is no end to that argument.

That team always plays a huge role is exactly what I was trying to say. Juventus, Real Madrid and France were all good teams, but Zidane's supporting cast in general have been worse than that of Xavi and Iniesta's. You think if you swapped Zidane and Iniesta, Juventus, Real and France would have won more while Barca and Spain would have won less?

While Iniesta's CV is impressive, I just don't think it's fair to look at the # of titles and conclude one's better than another because football's a team game. At least Zidane's won more individuals awards (including a Ballon d'Or and 3 World Player of the Year )

As for Zidane's teams winning more with Cristiano Ronaldo replacing Zidane, no.

[_SRV_]

I didn't mean that Iniesta doesn't show up in big games, but we can do the same thing with Iniesta. Iniesta lost to underdogs Inter and Chelsea in 10 and 12 CL and barely played a role in 2006 WC.

I don't really care for suspensions and injuries because that's got nothing to do with his in-game performance.

You countered the say that Xavi Iniesta deliver always with the big games, the truth is Zidane has absolutely no advantage there, Iniesta delivers always, both have their failures.
And about suspensions, you have to play to help, leaving your team in critical stages is a detriment.

Serie A in those three years was more competitive than La Liga last 5 years, and it's not Zidane's fault that his Juventus team wasn't as stacked as this Barca team. Also in his last 2 seasons, they lost out by only 1 and 2 points. They actually had more points in Zidane's last season than in 01/02 season, so it's not like they great improved after Zidane's departure either. It's 2 titles in 5 years btw.

And again, what was disgraceful is Real's defense. It's hard to win multiple trophies with the likes of Raul Bravo, Pavon and Salgado. They should have at least kept Maka.

right, it's 2 titles, but it's all the same, 3 years draught, Zidane leaves, 2 straight titles...
Salgado was not a bad player and Reoberto Carlos wasn't a bad player, in fact they had the same defense when they won the year before he arrived, suddenly when Zidane is there, they started sucking

That team always plays a huge role is exactly what I was trying to say. Juventus, Real Madrid and France were all good teams, but Zidane's supporting cast in general have been worse than that of Xavi and Iniesta's. You think if you swapped Zidane and Iniesta, Juventus, Real and France would have won more while Barca and Spain would have won less?

While Iniesta's CV is impressive, I just don't think it's fair to look at the # of titles and conclude one's better than another because football's a team game. At least Zidane's won more individuals awards (including a Ballon d'Or and 3 World Player of the Year )

It's not just the number of titles, it's not even mainly the number pf titles.
It's the fact that while Zidane was a charming player, with a lot of flair, but his footprint on teams he played wasn't as big as advertised.
Jeventus was about at the very least same with him and without him, in 98 France would've been to the Finals without him, (they actually reached the semis without his help, and I don't think they needed him to beat Croatia). It's the fact that while Real Madrid was stacked with stars, they managed to under achieve, you blame defense, I say 1 title in 5 years for an all time great, while playing next to Figo, Raul, Casillas, Roberto Carlos is a huge question mark.

As for Zidane's teams winning more with Cristiano Ronaldo replacing Zidane, no.

Actually yes.
There is really no way of knowing but the probability of Ronaldo winning back then is bigger than Zidane winning right now.

[5DOM]

You countered the say that Xavi Iniesta deliver always with the big games, the truth is Zidane has absolutely no advantage there, Iniesta delivers always, both have their failures.
And about suspensions, you have to play to help, leaving your team in critical stages is a detriment.

If you actually read the OP, I said that Xavi and Iniesta always perform but Zidane does show up in big games himself. I never said Zidane has an advantage in consistency over those two because he frankly doesn't. I just meant that it's not like Zidane disappears so often a la Guti

Jeventus was about at the very least same with him and without him

because they won less points after adding Buffon, Nedved, Thuram and Trezeguet while bringing back Lippi? Juventus before and after Zidane were two different teams.

in 98 France would've been to the Finals without him, (they actually reached the semis without his help, and I don't think they needed him to beat Croatia).

True, but I think most would agree that Zidane ran the show in the Final. Not sure if they would have beat Brazil without him but who knows.

Speaking of WC's, I'm not sure why you are ignoring some of his (or France's) other WC's and Euro's

02: Knocked out in the Group Stages (Zidane was injured for 2 games and MOTM in only game he played)

08 and 10: Were France the same with and without him after Zidane retired?

Actually yes.
There is really no way of knowing but the probability of Ronaldo winning back then is bigger than Zidane winning right now.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Salgado was not a bad player and Reoberto Carlos wasn't a bad player, in fact they had the same defense when they won the year before he arrived, suddenly when Zidane is there, they started sucking

It's the fact that while Real Madrid was stacked with stars, they managed to under achieve, you blame defense, I say 1 title in 5 years for an all time great, while playing next to Figo, Raul, Casillas, Roberto Carlos is a huge question mark.

The latter part of the 5 years I don't really care about because most of the players were past prime outside Casillas, but I think this article explains well why the original Galacticos failed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gal%C3%A1c ... ed_failure

I think it's hard to pinpoint their failure to Zidane's impact. And just like this year's Barca (who are better than Zidane's Galacticos btw), sometimes you just don't win even when you've got world class players

[_SRV_]

Zidane is a world class player, of course he won games by himself, I'm not saying he's Gutti if that was your intention I misunderstood.
Euro 2000 was his show, as was the Finals in 98, he's a great player.
When going down to details of comparing him to all time greats, these parameters have to be evaluted, and while he was one of the best in the world 98-2006, he's not on a separated level from Inniesta, Messi and Ronaldo, the order among them comes down to preference.
The reason team accomplishments count, is that if it didn't the 2 best players I watched would be Laudrop an Ronaldinho, you account for team accomplishments, consistency, era and style of play, when I account all of these, Xavi and Inniesta are more dominant and more accomplished then Zidane, who had his fair share of world class players playing on his side.

[Point forward]

Iniesta just won the Euro 2012 MVP Awards. I personally would have preferred Casillas, but then, Iniesta "ruined" Iker's Finals by giving him 90 minutes of rest