Asik Discussion. Pg 50 Sheridan: Bulls will match

[Magilla_Gorilla]

If Asik and Taj are anchoring this team, why are Noah and Boozer still on this roster? Wouldn't it make more sense to take that money and spend it on a real SG and an awesome bench? Seriously. Why are we paying players starter money if they are going to sit at the ends of games - ESPECIALLY in the playoffs?

Maybe they won't be for long...

[kyrv]

I like Asik......to an extent. When it comes down to paying him a contract that might force us to lose Taj & possibly trade Noah, I just feel he's not worth it.

Majorly valid concerns. I'm not assuming either of those. And while it would rip my guts out (figuratively) to see Noah leave, trading him for a stud type wing might make the team better.

On Taj, well if I have to pick between the two, I have to take Taj. But I don't know that I have to make that choice. The Bulls *can* afford to keep them all.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

My hope is that a match for Asik doesn't mean the FO is going to dump Noah/Taj. That they have a plan, and it might mean an exit for one or both of those players, but that t won't be a dump.

Dare to dream...

[blumeany]

If Asik and Taj are anchoring this team, why are Noah and Boozer still on this roster? Wouldn't it make more sense to take that money and spend it on a real SG and an awesome bench? Seriously. Why are we paying players starter money if they are going to sit at the ends of games - ESPECIALLY in the playoffs?

Maybe they won't be for long...

Don't get me wrong, I like Noah, but at some point the FO has to asks themselves that question. Are starters really starters if you need to constantly bring guys off the bench to play your style of basketball?

[BIGGIEsmalls 23]

Thibs has had a lot of teams under his control during his career. Have they all had similar results with all kinds of different personnel? No. The current Thibs defense is elite, and as much as I want to believe personnel doesn't matter so much, I'm fooling myself if I think it doesn't.

It's a defense oriented roster (a fact people here point out ad nauseum daily)...and it's an elite defense. Thibs has made some poor defensive players better in the past, I'm sure...but "similar results" means we're going to be an elite defense next year without Brewer and Asik. I personally think it's more of a challenge than some here think it will be.

Personnel matters.

I believe that Thibs & Doc share the same defensive mindset. As others have pointed out, Boston has remained near the top of the league defensively with the losses of "key" personnel throughout the years.

We simply can't rob Peter (Taj & Noah) to pay Paul (Asik), IMHO.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

Thibs has had a lot of teams under his control during his career. Have they all had similar results with all kinds of different personnel? No. The current Thibs defense is elite, and as much as I want to believe personnel doesn't matter so much, I'm fooling myself if I think it doesn't.

It's a defense oriented roster (a fact people here point out ad nauseum daily)...and it's an elite defense. Thibs has made some poor defensive players better in the past, I'm sure...but "similar results" means we're going to be an elite defense next year without Brewer and Asik. I personally think it's more of a challenge than some here think it will be.

Personnel matters.

I believe that Thibs & Doc share the same defensive mindset. As others have pointed out, Boston has remained near the top of the league defensively with the losses of "key" personnel throughout the years.

We simply can't rob Peter (Taj & Noah) to pay Paul (Asik), IMHO.

Maybe I'm naive - but i don't believe GarPax are going to allow Noah/Taj (two important players in their own right) to just be dumped alongside the highway like an old frat house couch.

They've got a process.

[DanTown8587]

He's the second choice to start - and yet he is playing there in crunch time with Taj while Noah and Boozer ride the bench. That's why i expect the bulls to match - they're not going to find anyone remotely comparable on the FA market.

You're not getting my point. My point is that he's a luxury. Or that Noah is. I don't really care which one is the luxury or the necessity since they have different skill sets, the point is you can't keep both. Either Joakim Noah isn't a 12 million a year center or Omer Asik is getting a lot of money to be a part time contributor.

And by the way, how many playoff games has Omer closed out andthe Bulls won? This isn't a game 6 of Philly shot, but the Bulls have lost playoff games due to lack of offense while playing elite defense the past two years.

[D_GoLow]

Go on take the money and run Omer.

We can't tie up that much money for a backup center who plays 14mpg. Now, if we have plans on Omer being out starter, and are looking to deal Noah.. then yes, keep him. But I seriously doubt we're looking to trade Noah. Let em walk, and pay Gibson.

Agree 100%.

Bulls should only match if they have a deal on the table with Noah...

[Red Larrivee]

He's the second choice to start - and yet he is playing there in crunch time with Taj while Noah and Boozer ride the bench.

That's both a gift and a curse, and unfortunately from the pro-Asik side nobody is really talking about the curse, and that's a weaker perception of Joakim Noah, as well as us continuing to pay a luxury behind him.

What Asik does is nice and all, but the Bulls are still paying Joakim Noah $48M to defend, rebound, block shots and energize the defense on a night to night basis. He's also expected to play heavy minutes in the playoffs and be a game changer defensively, which he has done in the postseason. That's not to say you can't have multiple players on a team who rebound and defend, but they shouldn't all be making big $$$. You don't need both players on your team, and most would prefer to have the better basketball player: Noah.

It's not an easy decision, but the right move is letting Asik walk.

[DJhitek]

Asik isn't ready to be a full time starter and my concerns aint got nothing to do with his offense. His foul rate is extremely high, which is stunning with how well he jumps straight up in the air with opponents.

[PistolP]

Thibs has had a lot of teams under his control during his career. Have they all had similar results with all kinds of different personnel? No. The current Thibs defense is elite, and as much as I want to believe personnel doesn't matter so much, I'm fooling myself if I think it doesn't.

It's a defense oriented roster (a fact people here point out ad nauseum daily)...and it's an elite defense. Thibs has made some poor defensive players better in the past, I'm sure...but "similar results" means we're going to be an elite defense next year without Brewer and Asik. I personally think it's more of a challenge than some here think it will be.

Personnel matters.

Maybe this isn't the best way to look at it, but I just took a glance at Thibs coached teams since 1996, and besides a couple crappy Knicks teams in the early 2000s, pretty much all of the teams have been pretty elite defensively. Here at the Def Rtgs / League ranks for the Thibs coached teams.

2011-12 Bulls: 98.3 / 2nd
2010-11 Bulls: 100.3 / 1st
2009-10 Celtics: 103.8 / 5th
2008-09 Celtics: 102.3 / 2nd
2007-08 Celtics: 98.9 / 1st
2006-07 Rockets: 100.7 / 3rd
2005-06 Rockets: 103.3 / 6th
2004-05 Rockets: 101.7 / 4th
2003-04 Rockets: 99.0 / 5th
2002-03 Knicks: 106.2 / 23rd
2001-02 Knicks: 105.9 / 18th
2000-01 Knicks: 98.2 / 3rd
1999-00 Knicks: 100.9 / 6th
1998-99 Knicks: 97.5 / 4th
1997-98 Knicks: 100.2 / 4th
1996-97 Knicks: 101.0 / 2nd

[pduh01]

If the Bulls do indeed match the offer it doesn't mean the Bulls got to trade Noah or combination of Noah & Gibson for dumps unless it is a type of deal you cannot refuse.

However, if the Bulls do indeed match the Asik offer with Houston, the Bulls will probably have to get rid of one, or two players that are under contract, Noah and Gibson might be the candidates but it doesn't have to be them it could be someone like Boozer and Deng. I don't think the Bulls match the Asik offer even though they want to keep him, if they do I think later down the road someone is going to be dealt, or amnesty, maybe one of them be trade, and amnesty. Because i do not see the Bulls keep all our front courts Asik/Noah/Boozer/and Deng for long term plus with Derrick Rose, and Taj is up for the extension(if Bulls intend to keep Gibson too.) someone have to be traded and amnesty. Plus Miltroic coming in a few years(2014 at the earliest.) one, or combination of the players got to be dealt.

I feel its going to be two players that might be parts way later down the road if the Bulls do indeed match Asik offer, and plus if they intent to extend/keep Gibson as part of their core. Plus if the Bulls intent to look to solve our SG positions someone got to go.

[fleet]

Asik isn't ready to be a full time starter and my concerns aint got nothing to do with his offense. His foul rate is extremely high, which is stunning with how well he jumps straight up in the air with opponents.

when he is forced to play big minutes It appears he lets off the gas. He manages his fouls better and stays in the game. Usually he knows he's not playing the whole game so he racks em up. Not good, but he does seem to know the difference between starting and coming off the bench for limited minutes.

[PJ Brown]

I still don't think accepting means you've got to deal Noah. It means 1) you have to be willing to pay the tax in year three and 2) Boozer won't be here anymore. If they don't really plan to ever pay the tax, then it's an easy choice. I'd like to think they intend to pay the tax in the future, which is why this one could go either way.

[kyrv]

I still don't think accepting means you've got to deal Noah. It means 1) you have to be willing to pay the tax in year three and 2) Boozer won't be here anymore. If they don't really plan to ever pay the tax, then it's an easy choice. I'd like to think they intend to pay the tax in the future, which is why this one could go either way.

Right - if they are not going to pay the tax, they should be looking at the team structure, that no backups can make more than the MLE, so it's a slam dunk not to match. Exception would be Taj because Boozer will be replaced by Mirotic at some point and MIrotic will make under the MLE.

So, if they aren't going to pay the tax ever, then matching would mean trading Noah (or Boozer), I agree with that.

But, like you, I'm hoping they will pay some tax or quite simply they aren't going to win a title and will have an incredibly tough time being elite imo.

[pduh01]

I still don't think accepting means you've got to deal Noah. It means 1) you have to be willing to pay the tax in year three and 2) Boozer won't be here anymore. If they don't really plan to ever pay the tax, then it's an easy choice. I'd like to think they intend to pay the tax in the future, which is why this one could go either way.

Pretty much agree.

And to add got to think who is the Bulls core beside Derrick Rose? I begin to think more that when Gar Forman say he wants long term I begin to think our long term it will be someone like Rose/Noah/Gibson/Miltroic/maybe Asik(If match.)/and maybe Teague but question mark.)

I think that is our "long term" core moving forward....Which is why it is possible the Bulls could match Asik offer if the structure of his contract what Houston is offering it is possible that Gar could match the offer with the first two years isn't really a bad deal it is just the third year being ridiculous.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

He's the second choice to start - and yet he is playing there in crunch time with Taj while Noah and Boozer ride the bench. That's why i expect the bulls to match - they're not going to find anyone remotely comparable on the FA market.

You're not getting my point. My point is that he's a luxury. Or that Noah is. I don't really care which one is the luxury or the necessity since they have different skill sets, the point is you can't keep both. Either Joakim Noah isn't a 12 million a year center or Omer Asik is getting a lot of money to be a part time contributor.

And by the way, how many playoff games has Omer closed out andthe Bulls won? This isn't a game 6 of Philly shot, but the Bulls have lost playoff games due to lack of offense while playing elite defense the past two years.

I got your point, but I think we just have a very fundamental disagreement on Asik's worth to this team. I would agree that for 90% of the teams in the league his position as a backup C would be a luxury not to be afforded, but for this team - its not. Asik is a necessity if we want to mantian the bench advantage we have and to keep games within reach for our mediocre offense.

I agree we need to upgrade the offense, but I don't think we should do it at the expense of the best defender on the team, an elite post defender.

[dice]

I still don't think accepting means you've got to deal Noah. It means 1) you have to be willing to pay the tax in year three and 2) Boozer won't be here anymore. If they don't really plan to ever pay the tax, then it's an easy choice. I'd like to think they intend to pay the tax in the future, which is why this one could go either way.

Right - if they are not going to pay the tax, they should be looking at the team structure, that no backups can make more than the MLE, so it's a slam dunk not to match. Exception would be Taj because Boozer will be replaced by Mirotic at some point and MIrotic will make under the MLE.

So, if they aren't going to pay the tax ever, then matching would mean trading Noah (or Boozer), I agree with that.

But, like you, I'm hoping they will pay some tax or quite simply they aren't going to win a title and will have an incredibly tough time being elite imo.

they're going to end up paying some tax with or without asik

[kyrv]

I still don't think accepting means you've got to deal Noah. It means 1) you have to be willing to pay the tax in year three and 2) Boozer won't be here anymore. If they don't really plan to ever pay the tax, then it's an easy choice. I'd like to think they intend to pay the tax in the future, which is why this one could go either way.

Right - if they are not going to pay the tax, they should be looking at the team structure, that no backups can make more than the MLE, so it's a slam dunk not to match. Exception would be Taj because Boozer will be replaced by Mirotic at some point and MIrotic will make under the MLE.

So, if they aren't going to pay the tax ever, then matching would mean trading Noah (or Boozer), I agree with that.

But, like you, I'm hoping they will pay some tax or quite simply they aren't going to win a title and will have an incredibly tough time being elite imo.

they're going to end up paying some tax with or without asik

Wasn't sure - thanks dice.

[D_GoLow]

If the Bulls match, I hope it pushes Boozer out the door & not Noah/Taj...I have my doubts