Asik Discussion. Pg 50 Sheridan: Bulls will match

[Magilla_Gorilla]

Don't be ridiculous. None of the big men available are enough of an offensive upgrade to make any real impact there.

Luol Deng is average-ish on offense, and elite on defense.

Kevin Durant is elite on offense, average-ish on defense.

Individual defense is simply not as valuable as individual offense.

And a great defensive big man is more valuable to a team than a great defensive SF.

[BULLHITTER]

i'm trying to recall a scenario in which a defensive big (wallace, biedrens, mcilvaine, et al) got paid and the team that paid them got (or even close to) their money's worth. it has almost ALWAYS ended up with the team trying unsuccessfully to dump him before the deal was over. i realize the bulls "dumped" wallace, but it was for scraps and most everybody applauded the move, even for scraps.

asik won't get scraps in return once he's owed 14-15 mil......i can't even believe somebody would think he can make a 14 million dollar impact.

[boogydown]

So if it's unlikely even then, why are you so eager to pay Asik all this money, as if he's going to put us over the top and power us to a championship? Now you're just being irresponsible.

Okay you're completely twisting what I said and making up things now.

Earliest we'll get back to the Level we are now is if we let Asik walk is the Summer of 2014. That's a maybe. It could be much longer.

Letting Asik walk is taking a step backwards.

If we were in "retool" mode and not "win" mode right now, I think the Bulls would have explored a Deng trade. Doesn't look like they ever even tried to push for a deal to get done.

[thedarkstark]

OH HEY JERRY REINSDORF IS LEANING TOWARDS NOT SPENDING MONEY!?

WHAT A SURPRISE!

[AAU Teammate]

It's one thing to be defense-minded and another to be an elite defense at a time when your defense is so good that you are finishing seasons with the #1 overall NBA record.

If Asik is replaceable and you are implying you're ready to dip back into previous Paxson Era levels of defense, then you are ready for More Losses.

Previous Paxson Era levels of defense? Dude the Bulls have been a great defense for the better part of the Paxson Era. Why are we acting like anything but being #1 at defense is unacceptable? The Bulls are going to be an elite defensive team next year even without Rose. ITS NEVER BEEN AN ISSUE.

Asik IS replaceable. Easy to replace? No, but definitely replaceable.

As others have said, your overall theme of saying we're too reliant on defense is ignoring that our elite defense is what got us here....and if we balance it out, we won't be "here" anymore (among the few elite teams in the NBA)

So basically we should never fix our offense, and stay as an elite-defensive, mediocre offensive team.

I'd like to stay an elite defense and add some offense.

[Red Larrivee]

i'm trying to recall a scenario in which a defensive big (wallace, biedrens, mcilvaine, et al) got paid and the team that paid them got (or even close to) their money's worth. it has almost ALWAYS ended up with the team trying unsuccessfully to dump him before the deal was over. i realize the bulls "dumped" wallace, but it was for scraps and most everybody applauded the move, even for scraps.

asik won't get scraps in return once he's owed 14-15 mil......i can't even believe somebody would think he can make a 14 million dollar impact.

Reserve big-men, MLE-salary deals or higher usually have the highest bust rate in free agency. Yet, teams continue to do them. From Adonal Foyle to Mark Blount to DeSagana Diop to Nazr Mohammed, you can go on for days actually.

I'd like to stay an elite defense and add some offense.

How do you realistically expect to do that without sacrificing some of your strength? Can't have your cake and eat it too.

[ballerkingn2]

I frankly would love if we payed the tax and its looking like we are going to go into the season paying the tax currently. Esp IF we match omer; but someone messing up in the upper level is all I can say. No way if we weren't going to pay the tax we keep deng/boozer on this team. Unless they plan on cutting boozer soon(doubt it,but maybe),and I think we missed the boat on trading deng on draft night. Plus his trade value has to be worse with him possibly battling a back issues. Like come on gar/pax the cut the umbilical cord on deng,he clearly the key to us getting younger and their love feast for him is related to every move me make. Its just going to be interesting to see what moves we do or don't make to avoid the tax if in fact we intend to avoid the tax.

[Jimmy Forums]

So if it's unlikely even then, why are you so eager to pay Asik all this money, as if he's going to put us over the top and power us to a championship? Now you're just being irresponsible.

Okay you're completely twisting what I said and making up things now.

Earliest we'll get back to the Level we are now is if we let Asik walk is the Summer of 2014. That's a maybe. It could be much longer.

Letting Asik walk is taking a step backwards.

That wouldn't happen if you would be more clear in your original thought, like I said. Regardless, we understand each other now.

However, I just feel like you're overrating Asik's effect on our title chances.

[Jimmy Forums]

I'd like to stay an elite defense and add some offense.

Join the club. However, we can't just do that. Particularly if we're giving $15 million to our backup center.

[AAU Teammate]

I'd like to stay an elite defense and add some offense.

How do you realistically expect to do that without sacrificing some of your strength? Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Over the course of Omer's contract we will have the opportunity to draft intelligently, spend exceptions, possibly bring Mirotic, possibly use a Charlotte pick. Trades are talked about every year and I expect the next few years to be no different.

I think the difference between you and me is you need all of this done before next year. For next year, I am fine with the following: (1) stay an elite defense (2) add Derrick by year's end and see what happens in the playoffs.

[AAU Teammate]

I'd like to stay an elite defense and add some offense.

Join the club. However, we can't just do that. Particularly if we're giving $15 million to our backup center.

Just like I can't guarantee we can do that, you can't guarantee that we can't.

You have a strong suspicion we can't, but that is not fact.

[boogydown]

That wouldn't happen if you would be more clear in your original thought, like I said. Regardless, we understand each other now.

However, I just feel like you're overrating Asik's effect on our title chances.

I need to sleep. I've been up for 36 hours. Continue tomorrow.

[PJ Brown]

Don't be ridiculous. None of the big men available are enough of an offensive upgrade to make any real impact there.

Luol Deng is average-ish on offense, and elite on defense.

Kevin Durant is elite on offense, average-ish on defense.

Individual defense is simply not as valuable as individual offense.

Are we saying no to trading Asik for Bynum? Aldridge? Deng/Durant is a complete red herring.

[Red Larrivee]

I think the difference between you and me is you need all of this done before next year. For next year, I am fine with the following: (1) stay an elite defense (2) add Derrick by year's end and see what happens in the playoffs.

That's actually not true. I've said that I don't expect this offense to improve drastically for a while. However, I don't think this team is doing themselves any favors by trapping salary in more defensive players, while overvaluing a surplus.

I just don't understand though why it matters if we're not the #1 defensive team in the league. #2, #3, #4, #5...is that really so bad? The Bulls are so great defensively that they can afford a dropoff.

[BIGGIEsmalls 23]

I need to sleep. I've been up for 36 hours. Continue tomorrow.

For crying out loud. Another hour won't hurt, Boogy.

I just logged in man .

[AAU Teammate]

I think the difference between you and me is you need all of this done before next year. For next year, I am fine with the following: (1) stay an elite defense (2) add Derrick by year's end and see what happens in the playoffs.

That's actually not true. I've said that I don't expect this offense to improve drastically for a while. However, I don't think this team is doing themselves any favors by trapping salary in more defensive players, while overvaluing a surplus.

I just don't understand though why it matters if we're not the #1 defensive team in the league. #2, #3, #4, #5...is that really so bad? The Bulls are so great defensively that they can afford a dropoff.

The beauty of our defense currently, is that it can defend any kind of lineup. We guard elite SFs with Luol. We switch beautifully against a team like LAC, in that Noah can guard Chris Paul on a switch. We guard Dwight Howard better than most teams because the classic big man is a dying breed.

Take Asik out, and we don't have the widebody defender needed to guard a Dwight or a Hibbert even. These are the kinds of guys that we'll face in a playoff series...and Noah man-on against that type of guy is not enough. In the playoffs, you tend to see talented centers..simply because the playoffs have the most complete teams.

[PistolP]

We don't even know the "full complete" details of the contract.

Lets say we find out tomorrow Asik has a $5M buyout on his final year, now all of a sudden the contract is looking very good.

It's all guaranteed. That $15m will be all ours.

All three years on the contract are fully guaranteed, a source said.

Link

If the Bulls commit to going deep into the tax, I'd be down to keep Asik if we get a solid scoring SG too (Korver or S&T). But if keeping him means we are going cheap in the backcourt, I think my preferred course of action would be:

- Move CJ for trade exception
- Use trade exception to S&T for short-term big like Nazr to play 5-10 mpg (Taj the other 5-10)
- S&T for a SG like Lee, Mayo or LWilliams

[jump]

Since an S&T now with Houston is a poor value for us, I don't see why we don't sign him now and look for a better trade at deadline or next summer. Even with the $14 million year three price tag, it's a decent deal form most teams if we do it within a year. Then we can shop for better value. In the meantime, we retain our defensive advantage.

[Red Larrivee]

The beauty of our defense currently, is that it can defend any kind of lineup. We guard elite SFs with Luol. We switch beautifully against a team like LAC, in that Noah can guard Chris Paul on a switch. We guard Dwight Howard better than most teams because the classic big man is a dying breed.

Take Asik out, and we don't have the widebody defender needed to guard a Dwight or a Hibbert even. These are the kinds of guys that we'll face in a playoff series...and Noah man-on against that type of guy is not enough. In the playoffs, you tend to see talented centers..simply because the playoffs have the most complete teams.

While that's true, why are you guys hyping up what Asik does so well, and how important it is to this teams success, and then saying trade him after two years of his deal? Are we all in agreement that Asik isn't a long-term piece of this team and doesn't need to be? it seems so.

Either way, losing our biggest body, doesn't mean we'll be an awful defensive team. We'll still be elite at it.

[PistolP]

Omer Asik is poised to sign his three-year offer sheet Wednesday, the value of which will be determined once the league's audit is finished Tuesday and salary cap figures are established. It will be worth between $24 million and 25 million, with a "poison pill" third year of up to $14.9 million.

The Bulls have until Saturday to match. General manager Gar Forman consistently stated the Bulls would match any offer for Asik, but a third-year maximum salary is the worst-case scenario for a team already paying Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah a combined $30 million in 2014-15.

Link