Asik Discussion. Pg 50 Sheridan: Bulls will match

[ngeloh]

For those saying we can always trade Asik, doesn't this contract become harder to trade as the seasons progress? You trade him in the 2nd or 3rd year and thats 15-20m a team is going to pay Asik for 1 or 2 years. I doubt many teams will be willing to trade for a back-up center who is going to be owed 15m, unless of course, they want an expiring deal. But history indicates that the Bulls will not get much value for a team looking for expiring deals.

[StephenAA]

Omer Asik is poised to sign his three-year offer sheet Wednesday, the value of which will be determined once the league's audit is finished Tuesday and salary cap figures are established. It will be worth between $24 million and 25 million, with a "poison pill" third year of up to $14.9 million.

The Bulls have until Saturday to match. General manager Gar Forman consistently stated the Bulls would match any offer for Asik, but a third-year maximum salary is the worst-case scenario for a team already paying Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah a combined $30 million in 2014-15.

Link

Once again, don't think for a minute that GarPax didn't know that this was likely!! They haven't been sitting in their office the past week thinking, "Gee, now what do we do??"

Regardless of what you think about the Bulls FO past moves, they almost always have a well thought-through plan!! (BG7 probably being the one exception)...

AA

[StephenAA]

Bulls need to match - then hire a big man coach to drill Asik every day for 2 years, working on his hands and offense so they can trade him by year 3.

This is a huge point!

The first off-season the Bulls had Asik, I believe he was injured.

The second off-season they had him, they were locked out.

The Bulls have never really had a chance to work with Asik on his offensive game during the off-season - until now. I believe this coming year we will see improvement in this area...

AA

[StephenAA]

Are we saying no to trading Asik for Bynum? Aldridge? Deng/Durant is a complete red herring.

There's no "red herring," it's just an example of how individual defense =/= individual offense in value to a team.

Of course Asik isn't being traded for Andrew Bynum. Their is no clear either/or situation here. The issue is that if you keep signing minor contributors to big contracts like that, you are hurting your flexibility. This is what is important when dealing with so many financial restrictions like there are in the NBA.

Has everyone seriously forgotten the Ben Wallace era already?

Marcus Camby was available this offseason at half the price as Asik.

The difference between Camby's offense and Asik's is greater then the difference between Deng and Durants.

I think Camby would be an overall upgrade over Asik, even at his age.

But a very short-sided view.

Camby is 38, Asik is 26...

AA

[StephenAA]

How would a scenario like that work? Korver and a 2nd round pick for Williams? Bulls would be taking on money in a deal like that, no?

The only money the Bulls would be taking on is the contract they get from Williams or whoever, that's signed by their original team.

Red, have you given us a realistic plan for the short-term / long-term after not matching Asik, and how it makes us better ?? Maybe I missed it...

AA

[Angry Jimmy]

But a very short-sided view.

Camby is 38, Asik is 26...

AA

And Asik going to end up playing in Houston, so what difference does his age make??

My point was that we could upgrade the position for the next couple years for half the price, and then try to find a younger back up center in the mean time.

[StephenAA]

come on - they got to match now

They have no way to get a decent replacement centre

Matching does not mean that we must keep him all 3 years

Exactly!!

I believe in July 2013 there will be plenty of ways that we can get some "value" back by trading Asik - if necessary! Letting him go now, we get nothing!!

AA

The team he gets traded to will have the same 15 million 3rd year contract for a offensive caveman with good defense.

The team he gets traded to will have a starting center at 2/20m...

A

[Red Larrivee]

This is a huge point!

The first off-season the Bulls had Asik, I believe he was injured.

The second off-season they had him, they were locked out.

The Bulls have never really had a chance to work with Asik on his offensive game during the off-season - until now. I believe this coming year we will see improvement in this area...

AA

Asik has been playing basketball for quite some time. If he needs coaching to learn how to catch a basketball, he's hopeless.

Red, have you given us a realistic plan for the short-term / long-term after not matching Asik, and how it makes us better ?? Maybe I missed it...

AA

My short-term and long-term plan is basically just using the backup C position as the revolving door that it is. Long-term I'm sure we can find a backup in the draft on the cheap for four years. Short-term, just fill it with vets.

[GetBuLLish]

My short-term and long-term plan is basically just using the backup C position as the revolving door that it is. Long-term I'm sure we can find a backup in the draft on the cheap for four years. Short-term, just fill it with vets.

So we are worse for the next two years under your plan, but have more flexibility in the third year. Correct?

[Angry Jimmy]

My short-term and long-term plan is basically just using the backup C position as the revolving door that it is. Long-term I'm sure we can find a backup in the draft on the cheap for four years. Short-term, just fill it with vets.

So we are worse for the next two years under your plan, but have more flexibility in the third year. Correct?

Not worse, different. Any one you bring in, even if it's Kwame Brown, will be an offensive upgrade, so while the defense gets a little worse, the offense drastically improves for those 15 minutes a game that we have the back up center in.

I already posted advanced stats early in the thread that show that Asik's defense does not make up for his offensive shortcomings. At best he's a zero sum player.

Camby was available, he's be an upgrade for the next 2 years as a vet guy, and half the cost of Asik.

[MrFortune3]

i can't see them not matching. makes no sense to sign Hinrich, let CJ,Ronnie and potentially Korver go only to lose Asik who has more asset value than any of them.

[GetBuLLish]

Not worse, different. Any one you bring in, even if it's Kwame Brown, will be an offensive upgrade, so while the defense gets a little worse, the offense drastically improves for those 15 minutes a game that we have the back up center in.

I already posted advanced stats early in the thread that show that Asik's defense does not make up for his offensive shortcomings. At best he's a zero sum player.

Not much to say here but that I disagree with you. If you think we can let go of Asik and fill his spot with one of the crappy big men left on the board without missing a beat, then it's pretty clear why you'd be against matching the offer.

I just don't understand how you can have watched the entire season and say something like that. Did you not see those games where Asik closed out games with Noah on the bench? Were you not around when Noah was sucking ass at the beginning of the season, yet the Bulls were barely missing a beat record wise due in large part to Asik being able to provide his consistent and stellar defense?

[Tommy Udo 6]

they have to match because they cant replace him - unless Korver, Brewer or Watson are being traded for a Center tomorrow

[ballerkingn2]

they have to match because they cant replace him - unless Korver, Brewer or Watson are being traded for a Center tomorrow

Maybe a brewer/cj watson for kanter sign and trade cj miles could work. Hey jazz have a ton of big men and kanter isn't lighting the world on fire. The jazz get a new cj who can score/defend and ronnie goes back to the team that picked him and the system he knows,plus more cap relief in 2014 once they expire.


Not sure if the jazz would move kanter though,nor to I think the bulls would think of this trade even if the jazz where to be willing.

or we can just do korver/watson or brewer for kanter sign and trade cj miles,but doubt they would go for that at all.

[DanTown8587]

Omer is a great regular season backup center. He will steal games and if the Bulls didn't bring him back, there are three to four games next year that Omer probably would have helped lead to victory that instead will be a loss.

HOWEVER, that would assume the rest of your team remains unchanged and clearly that isn't the case with a hobbled Rose next year. That also would assume that the Bulls don't have a way to give Omer's minutes to equal players. In a playoff situation, they can easily give more minutes to Gibson, Noah and Boozer and Deng at the 4 and 5 positions. Yes, they would need to add a Nazr Mohammed type to be a backup center, but in the playoffs, rotations get shorter.

If you match Omer, not only do you lose the full MLE this year, you certainly couldn't use it next year or the year after without amnestying Boozer. That means you're actually forced to acquiring a SG via trade of a better player or you're using the MMLE. That's not something a title contending team with holes on the roster does.

[Rerisen]

That means you're actually forced to acquiring a SG via trade of a better player or you're using the MMLE.

Over the last two seasons I have seen nothing to indicate that the difference between us solving our offense/SG woes is the MLE vs MMLE. That includes the trial of Rip, as well as all the alternates we discussed last year that had poor seasons (JR Smith, Jamal, Jason Richardson, etc), and now this year as well we can't afford what a true problem solver costs, nor could we with 5M. Aaron Afflalo may have done it, but he ended up costing 7.7m, and that is about the going rate for guys even that have a *chance* of realistically solving what we lack on offense.

Certainly that small upgrade in player value between those two exceptions is not worth Omer Asik. And yet that is pretty much all dropping Omer means to us until we amnesty Boozer, don't extend Deng, etc. And once we are doing those things and the team is in true rebuild mode, then Asik's 3rd year could be dealt with in this same transition period.

For the Bulls to land a true #2 option that is not a huge prayer or gamble it is going to take a trade regardless. And for that you need value, and to have depth remaining once you send that value out.

[Red Larrivee]

So we are worse for the next two years under your plan, but have more flexibility in the third year. Correct?

Yes. The other part is I think the Bulls need to go for a more traditional payroll structure so they don't run into problems like these again. Right now we have four starters making eight figures, and two reserve big men who could end up commanding starter money (one already did).

I know people will come with the "but it's not your money" stuff, but if your payroll is more in order, then long-term we'll never have to worry about who's getting paid what and everything will flow around our main pieces.

[EastBayFJ]

@ DanTown

We were a title contending team with Keith Bogans as our shooting guard the year before last and where our starting shooting guard missed more than half the season last year

Where our Center rotation as well pretty much guaranteed us 3 or 3.5 on 5 on the offensive end

We were the best team in the league for 2 seasons running because we were amongst the top 2 or 3 defenses in the league.

A large part of the reason we were is because we had ( arguably ) the best big man pick and roll defenders in the league as well as one of the top wing defenses in Deng, Brewer and Bogans ( in the season before last )

Asik will be matched as will Taj next year and the gamble over the next 2 seasons is that Hinrich can recapture some defensive starch form and that Jimmy Butler is up to filling the void and Lu can stay healthy enough

Questions sure ...

But rightly or wrongly this team is built on defense first and they wont swap Asik for Lee as Asik in a sign and trade adds better defensive value than Lee notwithstanding Lee's "apparent need" fit at the 2 .

And who are we bringing in for the full MLE exactly when current free agency is off the Richter ?

I mean we bring in two half assed talents for the full MLE instead of Omer and commit over the same term - they still equal the cost of Omer in his Year 3 ..which if you are assuming ( as you have previously ) that the cost of an Omer retention automatically means you must lose Noah or Deng when Omer's cost kicks in Year 3 ..then by the same assertion - two MLE signings this year and next will also cost you a Deng resigning in 2 summers time

I mean ...Courtney Lee and say a vet point guard in like Devin Harris, Jarrett Jack or Beno Udrich next year ( if we had of kept CJ and not signed Kirk )

Or Omer Asik and Kirk Hinrich this year ?

I'm down for Omer and Kirk

[Vince Strong]

Any time you have a chance to match on a deal that pays a 3ppg and 5rpg guy $24mil, you walk the F away. Every. Single. Time. Hell, you run......and laugh at the GM who offered it.

You guys think Boozers deal is bad? Just wait until 2014-15 when this puppy matures. "But he plays great defense!" The game is played on 2 sides of the court. He is an absolute liability on offense. Its like having a hot wife, but you cant make love to her. Whats the point?

Every single player on the team last year had a higher ppg/36min, ast/36min, than Omer. That includes Scalabrine. He had the worst TOV% in the entire NBA, the lowest offensive rating on the Bulls, etc etc. He contributed as much to winning as CJ Watson (win share). So as good as he is defensively, he is twice as bad offensively.

Look, he's a great 10min/game player. But that's it. Those guys are a dime a dozen and should NEVER get paid $24mil/3 years. So much for the new CBA discouraging GM's from making these ridiculous contract offers.

[Bomba Navarro]

Any time you have a chance to match on a deal that pays a 3ppg and 5rpg guy $24mil, you walk the F away. Every. Single. Time. Hell, you run......and laugh at the GM who offered it.

This. Plain as a day. Asik's defense doesn't make up for his inability to contribute on the offensive end. Not on that price.