Asik Discussion. Pg 50 Sheridan: Bulls will match

[transplant]

Good stuff, BuffaloBull.

Claiming that Asik is "a dime a dozen" type of big is as uninformed as saying that he's one of the best all-around centers in the league. I haven't heard anyone claim the latter.

Asik is a truly wonderful defensive center. Certainly top-5 based on what I've seen.

Offensively, Thibodeau corrected a reporter last season who said that Asik sets "good screens." According to Thibodeau, Asik sets "great" screens. He occasionally gets called for moving, but he plays it to the edge of the rule as well as anyone I've seen. Coaches love this kind of **** and actually believe down to their toes that it matters.

According to Hollinger, Asik ranked 2nd in the NBA in offensive rebounding %. However, I think this is misleading because he has a lot of those offensive boards stolen from him in disturbingly short order.

It can't be denied that Asik isn't going to get you many points, but since he knows his limitations, his efficiency is pretty good.

That's Asik as I see him. I happen to think he's very important to what has made the Bulls so successful over the past couple seasons. If, as Forman has claimed, the Bulls will make basketball decisions rather than financial decisions this summer, they'll match.

[micromonkey]

Geez we all know that Asik isn't Uncle Drew--he doesn't "get buckets"

It's the Def stats we would be paying for--Thibs like to choke teams out at the end of games (with Rose as Uncle Drew Ideally) and we need Taj/Asik to do that. Even then we would pay to keep asset and or trade rather than letting him walk.

The easy answer is we play him 2 years (at $5M--sweet deal) then deal him to Minny as an expiring with picks when they trade us Love (after he tells him him he won't take team opt and will go to Chicago and only Chicago and he will have a tantrum and opt out in all other cases)

What is all this other worry about?

[RoseTheFuture22]

If we find a way to trade Boozer there's always a chance we can use the amnesty on Omer's 3rd year instead

[Magilla_Gorilla]

bulls offensive rating with Omer on the floor: 98.8
Teams since 2004-05 with offense that bad: 1 (Charlotte last year)

Come on. There isn't a single player in the Bulls rotation lower than 101.7 (CJ).

Asik is a poor offensive player. But this isn't really a reasonable way of characterizing him, is it? Is there a way to determine who he typically is on the floor with? And is there also a way to determine the extent to which his offensive failings in offensive rating are offset by the defensive rating of the units when he is on the floor?

I know some about advanced stats, though clearly not as much as others. But Morey is notorious for making personnel decisions based on advanced metrics. And he's the one that set Asik's market value and aggressively targeted him as Houston's #1 offseason priority.

82 games has each players top units by minutes:

Asik's top 3 - 5 man units by minutes:

Lucas, Korver, Deng, Gibson, Asik
Watson Brewer Deng Gibson Asik
Lucas Butler Korver Gibson Asik

[transplant]

If we find a way to trade Boozer there's always a chance we can use the amnesty on Omer's 3rd year instead

Nope. Only contracts in effect before the new CBA went into effect can be amnestied.

[DuckIII]

If, as Forman has claimed, the Bulls will make basketball decisions rather than financial decisions this summer, they'll match.

I stated in a different thread that, to me, the canary in the coal mine for the FO's willingness to spend is next trade deadline and next summer, not this summer.

However, the Asik situation might make the canary get light headed and weeze a bit.

[Red Larrivee]

If, as Forman has claimed, the Bulls will make basketball decisions rather than financial decisions this summer, they'll match.

Ronnie Brewer being replaced by the cheaper, unproven Jimmy Butler.
CJ Watson being replaced by a management favorite in Kirk Hinrich.

So far there hasn't been much "basketball moves" made. There's really not much substance to anything Gar says. People went crazy when Gar talked about some homerun deal last year.

[GloriaJames]

Good stuff, BuffaloBull.

Claiming that Asik is "a dime a dozen" type of big is as uninformed as saying that he's one of the best all-around centers in the league. I haven't heard anyone claim the latter.

Asik is a truly wonderful defensive center. Certainly top-5 based on what I've seen.

Offensively, Thibodeau corrected a reporter last season who said that Asik sets "good screens." According to Thibodeau, Asik sets "great" screens. He occasionally gets called for moving, but he plays it to the edge of the rule as well as anyone I've seen. Coaches love this kind of **** and actually believe down to their toes that it matters.

According to Hollinger, Asik ranked 2nd in the NBA in offensive rebounding %. However, I think this is misleading because he has a lot of those offensive boards stolen from him in disturbingly short order.

It can't be denied that Asik isn't going to get you many points, but since he knows his limitations, his efficiency is pretty good.

That's Asik as I see him. I happen to think he's very important to what has made the Bulls so successful over the past couple seasons. If, as Forman has claimed, the Bulls will make basketball decisions rather than financial decisions this summer, they'll match.

Well said. There's more to playing offense than scoring.

[LoveDaBoo]

at the end of the day sure, a quality backup is a quality backup, i get that; but 25 mil for a guy who's impact is only on one end, and who, for the foreseeable future is going to be second string?

if the bulls come up with that coin and still cry LT, they're full of it.

gotta love reading this thought over and over again. . again. How does offensive rebounding and screens not help on offense.

They do help. But you have to account for the fact that Asik fouls a lot on those screens, and misses subsequent shots on those rebounds. The stats don't lie: Asik is the most detrimental player to this team, on offense. #1.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

If, as Forman has claimed, the Bulls will make basketball decisions rather than financial decisions this summer, they'll match.

Ronnie Brewer being replaced by the cheaper, unproven Jimmy Butler.
CJ Watson being replaced by a management favorite in Kirk Hinrich.

So far there hasn't been much "basketball moves" made.

Jimmy utler in limited minutes - IMO - has more than proven he can replace what Brewer gave us last year.

How you can put Kirk as anything but a basketball decision is ridiculous. They just committed 6 million dollars to the guy. You might not like him, but they clearly prefer him to CJ and are paying out more to get him.

[Steve Brule]

People went crazy when Gar talked about some homerun deal last year.

Uhh Rip Hamilton? You're slipping, Red.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

at the end of the day sure, a quality backup is a quality backup, i get that; but 25 mil for a guy who's impact is only on one end, and who, for the foreseeable future is going to be second string?

if the bulls come up with that coin and still cry LT, they're full of it.

gotta love reading this thought over and over again. . again. How does offensive rebounding and screens not help on offense.

They do help. But you have to account for the fact that Asik fouls a lot on those screens, and misses subsequent shots on those rebounds. The stats don't lie: Asik is the most detrimental player to this team, on offense. #1.

Those same stats say that Boozer is the second best defender on this team - behind Asik. the stats don't lie.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

If, as Forman has claimed, the Bulls will make basketball decisions rather than financial decisions this summer, they'll match.

Ronnie Brewer being replaced by the cheaper, unproven Jimmy Butler.
CJ Watson being replaced by a management favorite in Kirk Hinrich.

So far there hasn't been much "basketball moves" made.

Jimmy Butler in limited minutes - IMO - has more than proven he can replace what Brewer gave us last year.

How you can put Kirk as anything but a basketball decision is ridiculous. They just committed 6 million dollars to the guy. You might not like him, but they clearly prefer him to CJ and are paying out more to get him.

[Mech Engineer]

at the end of the day sure, a quality backup is a quality backup, i get that; but 25 mil for a guy who's impact is only on one end, and who, for the foreseeable future is going to be second string?

if the bulls come up with that coin and still cry LT, they're full of it.

gotta love reading this thought over and over again. . again. How does offensive rebounding and screens not help on offense.

The point is Asik has been in the NBA for only 2 years and he has not had a training camp because he was hurt the 1st year/rookie and there was basically no training camp last year. The potential for him to make slight possible improvements on his offense of catching the ball at the right time/position...his impact will be magnified.

To be fair, he needs to improve on offense more than anybody else on the team. But, you don't find good offense playing centers easily anyhow. How much different is Noah when he doesn't even take his tornado shot most of the time.

But, the thread is being derailed with the same argument of he doesn't play offense. Yeah, everybody knows his issues with offense and the third year ballooned salary. That's not the point of argument at all. The thread should be more about what can the Bulls do after matching to improve Asik's play or want kind of moves they can make to complement their lack of offense. The Bulls are getting rid of the so-called bench mob guys like Brewer, Watson because of their struggles on offense compounded Asik/Taj's inabilities on offense.

[The Machine]

If, as Forman has claimed, the Bulls will make basketball decisions rather than financial decisions this summer, they'll match.

Ronnie Brewer being replaced by the cheaper, unproven Jimmy Butler.
CJ Watson being replaced by a management favorite in Kirk Hinrich.

So far there hasn't been much "basketball moves" made.

Jimmy utler in limited minutes - IMO - has more than proven he can replace what Brewer gave us last year.

How you can put Kirk as anything but a basketball decision is ridiculous. They just committed 6 million dollars to the guy. You might not like him, but they clearly prefer him to CJ and are paying out more to get him.

Problem with CJ he didn't perform well as a SG. Bulls want a combo guard.

[Red Larrivee]

Jimmy Butler in limited minutes - IMO - has more than proven he can replace what Brewer gave us last year.

How you can put Kirk as anything but a basketball decision is ridiculous. They just committed 6 million dollars to the guy. You might not like him, but they clearly prefer him to CJ and are paying out more to get him.

Jimmy hasn't proven he can replace anybody. Brewer despite injuries and falling off from his Utah days is still a better and more versatile basketball player than Butler is today. If we're talking basketball moves, Butler over Brewer doesn't qualify. Jimmy is cheaper over the next three years.

Hinrich's allure is being a management favorite. He's not a noticeably better player than Watson, he's regressed and he's four years older. There's a lot of reason to believe the nostalgic allure and previous attachment to Hinrich from 2003-2010 is what brought him back.

If we're to believe that this offseason was about basketball moves, then why didn't the Bulls try to turn those expiring deals into something that made us better basketball wise?

[Steve Brule]

Honestly, if Asik could just catch the damn ball it would make him an immensely better offensive player. Can't we hire someone to just chuck things at him all offseason?

I have this wonderful vision of Asik and a Bulls Trainer shopping at Whole Foods. Asik runs around dropping egg cartons and gallons of milk, dripping in sweat and crying. At which point a beautiful montage set to Eye of the Tiger kicks in and Asik just starts catching everything. Then he goes to the checkout line, opens a carton of uncracked eggs, smiles, and high fives his trainer.

[DanTown8587]

Asik is a poor offensive player. But this isn't really a reasonable way of characterizing him, is it? Is there a way to determine who he typically is on the floor with? And is there also a way to determine the extent to which his offensive failings in offensive rating are offset by the defensive rating of the units when he is on the floor?

I know some about advanced stats, though clearly not as much as others. But Morey is notorious for making personnel decisions based on advanced metrics. And he's the one that set Asik's market value and aggressively targeted him as Houston's #1 offseason priority.

I get who Morey wants Omer. I also get what Omer is, a highly skilled defensive big man. I don't want to match Omer and it's 100% about the contract and not the player.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

Jimmy Butler in limited minutes - IMO - has more than proven he can replace what Brewer gave us last year.

How you can put Kirk as anything but a basketball decision is ridiculous. They just committed 6 million dollars to the guy. You might not like him, but they clearly prefer him to CJ and are paying out more to get him.

Jimmy hasn't proven he can replace anybody. Brewer despite injuries and falling off from his Utah days is still a better and more versatile basketball player than Butler is today. If we're talking basketball moves, Butler over Brewer doesn't qualify. Jimmy is cheaper over the next three years.

The stats, and what I saw with my eyes, lead me to believe that Brewer is eminently replaceable and that Butler is more than capable of doing it.

Hinrich's allure is being a management favorite. He's not a noticeably better player than Watson, he's regressed and he's four years older. There's a lot of reason to believe the nostalgic allure and previous attachment to Hinrich from 2003-2010 is what brought him back.

What are you even saying? This was a nostalgia decision? Was it basketball or financial? You've railed against the FO for the cheap moves - so was this one of them? Is there any doubt in your mind Thibs would prefer Kirk to CJ? You're free to piss all over a player you don't like - but be ready to accept that the FO/coaches aren't always going to agree with you. See Blair, Dejuan/Gibson, Taj.

[boogydown]

Butler should be a reserve. He'll find minutes with injuries.