Asik Discussion. Pg 50 Sheridan: Bulls will match

[LoveDaBoo]

Honestly, if Asik could just catch the damn ball it would make him an immensely better offensive player. Can't we hire someone to just chuck things at him all offseason?

Believe it or not, they've already been doing this. They have him catching tennis balls. Maybe they should hire Patches O'Houlihan to throw wrenches at him.

But seriously, even if he caught the ball regularly he'd be bad on offense, because he can't complete a tip-in to save his life, and because he always brings the ball to his waist to gather before attempting a shot.

[Indomitable]

Jimmy Butler in limited minutes - IMO - has more than proven he can replace what Brewer gave us last year.

How you can put Kirk as anything but a basketball decision is ridiculous. They just committed 6 million dollars to the guy. You might not like him, but they clearly prefer him to CJ and are paying out more to get him.

Jimmy hasn't proven he can replace anybody. Brewer despite injuries and falling off from his Utah days is still a better and more versatile basketball player than Butler is today. If we're talking basketball moves, Butler over Brewer doesn't qualify. Jimmy is cheaper over the next three years.

Hinrich's allure is being a management favorite. He's not a noticeably better player than Watson, he's regressed and he's four years older. There's a lot of reason to believe the nostalgic allure and previous attachment to Hinrich from 2003-2010 is what brought him back.

If we're to believe that this offseason was about basketball moves, then why didn't the Bulls try to turn those expiring deals into something that made us better basketball wise?

If it does not make sense then it is about money.

[transplant]

If, as Forman has claimed, the Bulls will make basketball decisions rather than financial decisions this summer, they'll match.

I stated in a different thread that, to me, the canary in the coal mine for the FO's willingness to spend is next trade deadline and next summer, not this summer.

However, the Asik situation might make the canary get light headed and weeze a bit.

I'm one of the most patient posters here, but I yield to you on this score.

As you know, I'm one of the few here that doesn't consider next season a "throwaway." To me this demands of Bulls management that they remain in win-now mode. To me, just as a woman can't be "kinda pregnant," a NBA team can't be "kinda in win-now mode." Failing to match Asik signals to me that Bulls' management disagrees with my view about the meaningfulness of 2012-13. It'd make me sad and disappointed. It would also make it harder than it's ever been for me to faithfully serve as one of the resident "management apologists" here.

[Red Larrivee]

The stats, and what I saw with my eyes, lead me to believe that Brewer is eminently replaceable and that Butler is more than capable of doing it.

I agree. However, Brewer is the better basketball player right now. So if this offseason is about making basketball moves, then why has Brewer not been brought back?

What are you even saying? This was a nostalgia decision? Was it basketball or financial? You've railed against the FO for the cheap moves - so was this one of them? Is there any doubt in your mind Thibs would prefer Kirk to CJ? You're free to piss all over a player you don't like - but be ready to accept that the FO/coaches aren't always going to agree with you. See Blair, Dejuan/Gibson, Taj.

I have no idea who Thibs would prefer, and it's not a given he'd prefer Hinrich over Watson either if we're using that same logic. My point is that Hinrich isn't a noticeably better basketball player than Watson, and a lot of people as we saw this past Sunday would prefer Watson over Hinrich.

So if we're going to sell that as a basketball move, you're going to have a tough time, just as the pro-Kirk crowd in the Hinrich signing thread did.

And you didn't comment on the other thing I wrote. If we're to believe that this is a basketball move offseason, why didn't the Bulls ship the expirings they have/had for a better player?

[DuckIII]

If, as Forman has claimed, the Bulls will make basketball decisions rather than financial decisions this summer, they'll match.

Ronnie Brewer being replaced by the cheaper, unproven Jimmy Butler.
CJ Watson being replaced by a management favorite in Kirk Hinrich.

So far there hasn't been much "basketball moves" made.

While debateable, a reasonable argument can be made that those were basketball moves, even though they have a collateral financial benefit. I have no problem basketball-wise with anything the Bulls have done regarding Lucas, CJ, Brewer, Butler and Hinrich.

The rubber starts to meet the road, however, with Asik and Korver.

[AAU Teammate]

Jimmy Butler hasn't proven anything, but look at where Ronnie Brewer was before being a Bull. Utah gave him away and Memphis basically thought he was worthless (had an injury issue).

A rose can grow from concrete, you never know.

[transplant]

FWIW, while I would have preferred keeping Watson rather than signing Hinrich, that's just my opinion. I can easily buy that management viewed this as a basketball decision. I can also buy that between Butler and Hinrich at backup SG, this can be viewed as a basketball decision.

Failing to match Asik is a clear-cut financial decision to me that diminishes the on-court product.

[AAU Teammate]

The interesting part of all this is that CJ really must have fallen out of favor. Thibs probably just flat out said he's not a SG. Can't guard SG like Hinrich can.

The Bulls actually added future salary by taking Hinrich instead of CJ. That's something to ponder.

[Mech Engineer]

Jimmy Butler hasn't proven anything, but look at where Ronnie Brewer was before being a Bull. Utah gave him away and Memphis basically thought he was worthless (had an injury issue).

A rose can grow from concrete, you never know.

I am not so optimistic about Butler but Brewer for all his great skills and the way he played in the playoffs is one player who was let go by Utah/Memphis for nothing.

The point about Asik and Brewer is: It is tough to find a guy who is young and can do what Asik does at 80% skill level and they still teach him. With Brewer, you already have a guy in the system who has shown glimpses of the same skill-set. So, it is pretty much an easy decision.

[boogydown]

Bulls didn't really want Brewer from the start. They had many other options that declined our offers.

[DuckIII]

If, as Forman has claimed, the Bulls will make basketball decisions rather than financial decisions this summer, they'll match.

I stated in a different thread that, to me, the canary in the coal mine for the FO's willingness to spend is next trade deadline and next summer, not this summer.

However, the Asik situation might make the canary get light headed and weeze a bit.

I'm one of the most patient posters here, but I yield to you on this score.

As you know, I'm one of the few here that doesn't consider next season a "throwaway." To me this demands of Bulls management that they remain in win-now mode. To me, just as a woman can't be "kinda pregnant," a NBA team can't be "kinda in win-now mode." Failing to match Asik signals to me that Bulls' management disagrees with my view about the meaningfulness of 2012-13. It'd make me sad and disappointed. It would also make it harder than it's ever been for me to faithfully serve as one of the resident "management apologists" here.

I'm with you 100%. Earlier in this thread, when the Aggrey report was posted, I stated that turning CJ, Lucas and Brewer into Hinrich, Teague, Butler and a vet min guy is totally fine with me. But that doing that, while then letting Korver and Asik walk would be crap on a stick and completely unjustifiable to me, as a fan.

I am patient and I try very hard to be objective about the merging of the business and basketball sides of the sport. But I have a limit. And we might be approaching it.

[boogydown]

Thing with Brewer though is I didn't like him in the rotation period. Butler, who is a lesser Brewer right now until proven otherwise shouldn't be in rotation until he develops more.

Imagine if Deng got hurt. We really want Butler starting? Yikes.

[cot2]

I have been a proponent of matching Asik, but if they do not, it can still be considered a basketball decision. The Bulls are set up to be able to do things in 2014 - 2015, when Deng is expiring, an amnesty of Boozer possible, as well as Mirotic coming, if there is cap space, or the full MLE available, that they may not be able to do, if they match. It creates limitations even for a team willing to spend without limits. I hope they match, but it is no slam dunk, even as a basketball decision.

[GloriaJames]

I'm with you 100%. Earlier in this thread, when the Aggrey report was posted, I stated that turning CJ, Lucas and Brewer into Hinrich, Teague, Butler and a vet min guy is totally fine with me. But that doing that, while then letting Korver and Asik walk would be crap on a stick and completely unjustifiable to me, as a fan.

I am patient and I try very hard to be objective about the merging of the business and basketball sides of the sport. But I have a limit. And we might be approaching it.

My view exactly. I've mentioned this a number of times, but the decision on Asik will be my indication as to what this team's true intentions are. If we don't match Asik, I will be disappointed with the organization for the first time in quite a while.

[DuckIII]

I have been a proponent of matching Asik, but if they do not, it can still be considered a basketball decision. The Bulls are set up to be able to do things in 2014 - 2015, when Deng is expiring, an amnesty of Boozer possible, as well as Mirotic coming, if there is cap space, or the full MLE available, that they may not be able to do, if they match. It creates limitations even for a team willing to spend without limits. I hope they match, but it is no slam dunk, even as a basketball decision.

I understand your point. But that still makes it a financial decision. Granted, its a financial decision that hopes to set up a basketball decision, but you've still made the Bulls noteably worse in the process for two postseasons of Derrick Rose's career. And Derrick Rose postseasons are the most precious commodities there are for us.

[dice]

I have been a proponent of matching Asik, but if they do not, it can still be considered a basketball decision. The Bulls are set up to be able to do things in 2014 - 2015, when Deng is expiring, an amnesty of Boozer possible, as well as Mirotic coming, if there is cap space, or the full MLE available, that they may not be able to do, if they match. It creates limitations even for a team willing to spend without limits. I hope they match, but it is no slam dunk, even as a basketball decision.

I understand your point. But that still makes it a financial decision. Granted, its a financial decision that hopes to set up a basketball decision, but you've still made the Bulls noteably worse in the process for two postseasons of Derrick Rose's career. And Derrick Rose postseasons are the most precious commodities there are for us.

rather than making the postseasons worse in the future

was there no limit that you would have paid to keep a 15 mpg backup center, duck?

[DuckIII]

rather than making the postseasons worse in the future

There's no way to know. When I have a team that I believe can contend for titles (which is extraordinarily rare), I don't waste two years of that hoping that the third year will be better. I'd never support such a plan. Ever.

was there no limit that you would have paid to keep a 15 mpg backup center, duck?

Sure. But obviously we didn't reach it, so its kind of a moot question. There have been many times when the FO has let players walk, or salary dumped them, that I supported.

[transplant]

I have been a proponent of matching Asik, but if they do not, it can still be considered a basketball decision. The Bulls are set up to be able to do things in 2014 - 2015, when Deng is expiring, an amnesty of Boozer possible, as well as Mirotic coming, if there is cap space, or the full MLE available, that they may not be able to do, if they match. It creates limitations even for a team willing to spend without limits. I hope they match, but it is no slam dunk, even as a basketball decision.

Thanks and I get all that, but I'm not buying.

Again, this is a Bulls team that I believe had a good chance to win a championship this past season. If Rose has a successful recovery, they could be in a similar position as early as next season.

Bulls' management either agrees with me or they don't. If they agree then they need to keep the pedal to the metal. You can't just turn your back on these opportunities...they're too damn rare.

Edit: Duck I suspect you both think and type faster than I do.

[Chi town]

I'd be happy w Kirk/Teague/Butler and then Nazr and Mayo or Lee to replace Asik.

In fact I'd rather have Nazr and Lee or Mayo then Asik.

[DuckIII]

I'd be happy w Kirk/Teague/Butler and then Nazr and Mayo or Lee to replace Asik.

In fact I'd rather have Nazr and Lee or Mayo then Asik.

But that is actually literally impossible. That's the problem with all of this "let Asik walk" talk. We can't spend the money we would have spent on him, on anything other than JUST a vet min guy like Nazr.

Sure, you can let Asik walk and get Nazr. But then you have zero dollars for Mayo or Lee. Letting Asik walk just means making the Bulls worse. You can't let him walk and then make another move that makes us better. We either get better by signing him, or worse by kicking him. There is no in between.