Jose applying pressure: Trade prospects for pitchers

dagger · Post #1 » by **dagger** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:00 pm

I guess it's inevitable that Jose is going to get impatient waiting for the tomorrow that never seems to come (on his watch).

It's also only fair that if AA believes he should stay the course, be patient, etc., that we do right by Jose and consider trading him at the end of this season. Not sure Rogers has the stomach for it, Jose is the only marquee athlete in this city now... but this issue seems to be coming to a head...

Now the headline of this story goes a bit further than the body text, I recognize that, but this isn't the first time this month Jose has been talking about being a buyer, not a seller.

http://www.thescore.com/home/articles/3 ... e-pitchers

tecumseh18 · Post #2 » by **tecumseh18** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:08 pm

Bautista said. "I'd probably be his [Anthopoulos] biggest trading chip. I don't think he wants to do that because we're competitive."

This is a strong message. Compete, or trade me. I'd say we're about a year away from Dwight Howard territory, with the Jays playing the role of the Magic. But I don't blame Bautista. He's a really smart guy who knows exactly how the Jays have been budgeting lately.

It's ridiculous. We're saving a ton a money on Bau's contract compared to fair market value. I don't deny that money is going into scouting, the draft (as much as it can, now) and international signings (ditto). But was Cordero our biggest FA pitcher signing last winter?

mini · Post #3 » by **mini** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:36 pm

Can we just trade for Hamels and extend him giving him whatever he wants please! I mentioned in the other thread, but it looks like there are no "impact" SP available that are also controllable beyond this season. Garza doesn't do it for me. We need an ace (hell, give me two... Hamels and Greinke).

mini · Post #4 » by **mini** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:41 pm

tecumseh18 wrote:
Bautista said. "I'd probably be his [Anthopoulos] biggest trading chip. I don't think he wants to do that because we're competitive."

This is a strong message. Compete, or trade me. I'd say we're about a year away from Dwight Howard territory, with the Jays playing the role of the Magic. But I don't blame Bautista. He's a really smart guy who knows exactly how the Jays have been budgeting lately.

It's ridiculous. We're saving a ton a money on Bau's contract compared to fair market value. I don't deny that money is going into scouting, the draft (as much as it can, now) and international signings (ditto). But was Cordero our biggest FA pitcher signing last winter?

It does sound like a threat doesn't it. Jose wants us to go nuts, lets go nuts!

Lets say we take our top 10 prospect list. If we decide to keep 3 (any 3) and deal the rest, that could net us a couple big pitchers no? Our system is incredibly deep now especially considering the past year's draft.

gei · Post #5 » by **gei** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:51 pm

I generally hate it when players do this, but with the Jays and Rogers, I have no sympathy. This past offseason was a good offseason to spend - we did NOTHING, sustained major injuries, got off to a slow start offensively, and are still within a few games of that 2nd wildcard spot. Had we actually made some decent moves we'd be right there.

We've waited long enough - Jose is right.

Holmes · Post #6 » by **Holmes** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:58 pm

The question becomes, would you support going the 2011-Milwaukee Brewers route and decimating our farm system for 2 top flight starters for an all in run à la what the Brewers did with Zach Greinke and Shaun Marcum?

dagger · Post #7 » by **dagger** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:05 pm

Holmes wrote:The question becomes, would you support going the 2011-Milwaukee Brewers route and decimating our farm system for 2 top flight starters for an all in run à la what the Brewers did with Zach Greinke and Shaun Marcum?

Our system is so deep I'd think we're capable of getting at least one good pitcher without decimating the system. Key for me is value if any for Snider, Thames, Gomes and Beeston's willingness to absorb some $$$. After all, revenues are up, so a payroll rise for next season should be in order.

Also, take a guy like Deck McGuire. Is he a top prospect? His last two outings have been an improvement, He's young, a first rounder, etc, but he's not objectively bring ranked ahead of Syndergaard, Sanchez, Nicolino, Nolin, etc. So maybe a Deck plus Snider deal does it, maybe even absorb some salary. Does that decimate the farm system?

limegameboy · Post #8 » by **limegameboy** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:07 pm

Holmes wrote:The question becomes, would you support going the 2011-Milwaukee Brewers route and decimating our farm system for 2 top flight starters for an all in run à la what the Brewers did with Zach Greinke and Shaun Marcum?

no one is asking for that lol, and the brewers had thin system to begin with

we could lose 3-4 top prospects and still have a deep system

Mattd97 · Post #9 » by **Mattd97** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:44 pm

brewers also had to make a run at it cause they were losing fielder. were not losing anyone so we woudlnt drop off the same cliff.

Hamyltowne · Post #10 » by **Hamyltowne** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:08 pm

Holmes wrote:The question becomes, would you support going the 2011-Milwaukee Brewers route and decimating our farm system for 2 top flight starters for an all in run à la what the Brewers did with Zach Greinke and Shaun Marcum?

No, I would not.

Lateral Quicks · Post #11 » by **Lateral Quicks** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:56 pm

The reality is the team is only at .500 because of the schedule. With the depleted roster and the upcoming second half schedule, this team would need at least two above-average starters and Morrow + Hutch to get healthy to make a run at it.

I think AA needs to have a heart to heart with Bautista. If Bautista doesn't recognize the poor odds for this season and won't wait, then AA should deal him now for maximum value.

I must say it irks me that a guy who was a role player a mere three years ago is now making these kind of veiled demands. I get that he wants to win, but keep it on the down-low!

dagger · Post #12 » by **dagger** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:00 pm

Lateral Quicks wrote:
I must say it irks me that a guy who was a role player a mere three years ago is now making these kind of veiled demands. I get that he wants to win, but keep it on the down-low!

No man, bring it out in the open by all means. If Beeston hadn't tied payroll to revenues, then maybe there is a point to keeping things quiet, but since attendance and TV ratings are way up, let's have a debate about this. It wouldn't take such a big haul of prospects to improve the pitching staff if Rogers is ready to plough back some of the added revenues into the product by taking on a controllable salary another team wants relief from.

Post #13 » by **Schad** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:29 pm

Lateral Quicks wrote:I think AA needs to have a heart to heart with Bautista. If Bautista doesn't recognize the poor odds for this season and won't wait, then AA should deal him now for maximum value.

I must say it irks me that a guy who was a role player a mere three years ago is now making these kind of veiled demands. I get that he wants to win, but keep it on the down-low!

I don't mind it; he's saying his piece in a tactful way, and I have no qualms with him expressing the opinion that he'd like us to compete, even if I disagree with the prescription.

LBJSeizedMyID · Post #14 » by **LBJSeizedMyID** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:47 pm

Everyone's looking for the same thing which drives up their value.

I guess you could ask to forgo the willingness to sign an extension hoping "said" pitcher would like it here and eventually sign one. If that's the case, maybe the other team would be happy with a Nicolino for Greinke or Hamels.

distracted · Post #15 » by **distracted** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:56 pm

It's too bad this didn't happen earlier in the year, when we may still have been able to trade him for Trout + Trumbo with the Angels going all in.

Now the Angels wouldn't trade Trout alone for him.

BigLeagueChew · Post #16 » by **BigLeagueChew** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:17 pm

distracted wrote:It's too bad this didn't happen earlier in the year, when we may still have been able to trade him for Trout + Trumbo with the Angels going all in.

Now the Angels wouldn't trade Trout alone for him.

Nobody here wanted Trumbo other than myself in mid April. Whenever I suggested it they thought his sub .300 OBP was sustainable.

Skin Blues · Post #17 » by **Skin Blues** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:17 pm

Brett Lawrie for 2 years of Shaun Marcum. Boy, that turned out well for the Brewers.

I'm all for trading some prospects, but would rather it be guys like Nestor Molina,or Hech, rather than the Lawrie/d'Arnaud elite hitter type prospects.

Raider917 · Post #18 » by **Raider917** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:09 pm

is next year going to be a better chance of making the playoffs? drabek wonbt be back and hutchison might be another mcgowan. Rogers wont sign Hamels...thats for sure.

Michael Bradley · Post #19 » by **Michael Bradley** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:58 pm

Raider917 wrote:is next year going to be a better chance of making the playoffs? drabek wonbt be back and hutchison might be another mcgowan. Rogers wont sign Hamels...thats for sure.

AA will have no choice but to add to the rotation next season, as Drabek is out, Hutch is a question mark until he starts pitching again, Alvarez has been a disappointment, Cecil is still getting bombed, and McGowan is never healthy. Only Romero and Morrow are sure things at this point, and even Romero has been bad this year. It could be argued that AA figured the only way to be like the Rays would be to develop his own starters, which is why Alvarez, Drabek, Hutch, Carreno, etc, got looks to begin the year instead of signing vets, but hopefully the lesson will be learned this coming off-season. Don't waste $10M on the pen when 3/5's of the rotation is a question mark.

AA is never going to be able to rationalize trading Bautista to the fanbase, and there is no built-in excuse to do it as there was with Halladay, so hopefully Bautista's words influence the organization to accelerate the process a bit. Don't trash the farm system for short-term fixes, but also don't wait forever while you have a cheap superstar on the roster.

nonc · Post #20 » by **nonc** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:59 pm

dagger wrote:
Holmes wrote:The question becomes, would you support going the 2011-Milwaukee Brewers route and decimating our farm system for 2 top flight starters for an all in run à la what the Brewers did with Zach Greinke and Shaun Marcum?

Our system is so deep I'd think we're capable of getting at least one good pitcher without decimating the system. Key for me is value if any for Snider, Thames, Gomes and Beeston's willingness to absorb some $$$. After all, revenues are up, so a payroll rise for next season should be in order.

Also, take a guy like Deck McGuire. Is he a top prospect? His last two outings have been an improvement, He's young, a first rounder, etc, but he's not objectively bring ranked ahead of Syndergaard, Sanchez, Nicolino, Nolin, etc. So maybe a Deck plus Snider deal does it, maybe even absorb some salary. Does that decimate the farm system?

that's exactly why i don't know why we're so afraid of doing something. you could ship all four of those without batting an eyelash. you might have to send one top prospect but is that remotely close to "decimating" your true impact players of the future? sounds like fear-mongering to me. let's also not forget Escobar or Hech can be moved, there's value in that.