Asik Discussion. Pg 50 Sheridan: Bulls will match

[Nucky Thompson]

Do we really believe 2014 FA is going to unearth great things for us?

.

I know we have burned multiple times, but you have to try. Hopefully by then Derrick wises up and starts actively recruiting.

That won't happen so what else do we have going for us in 2014 FA?

It's not like we completely struck out in 2010 FA. Boozer was a very attractive FA at the time and had other max offers from other teams and chose the Bulls.

[AAU Teammate]

Do we really believe 2014 FA is going to unearth great things for us?

Our free agency experiences in the past further reinforce my wish to trade either Noah or a package involving Taj/Boozer/Asik in a year or two. What I want is to know what I'm getting.

Sick of going into an offseason with money to spend and then settling for surprises like Korver/Brewer eating up my cap space. Not knocking those players, but they are a surprise when you go into FA expecting lebron.

But what's a better alternative? We were going to have to retool regardless to put together are more CBA-friendly payroll for this team.

Noah and Asik are both centers that will affect the CBA-friendliness. Isn't it possible to trade one next year that chops off the future money and brings you back a pretty good player?

Also is it out of the question to trade Noah, Charlotte pick plus Boozer for a player that is pretty darn good (and cuts off future money as well)? Boozer is an albatross now w/ three years, but with only two years left on a deal he will be more attractive to teams.

[AAU Teammate]

It's not like we completely struck out in 2010 FA. Boozer was a very attractive FA at the time and had other max offers from other teams and chose the Bulls.

We didn't strike out in 2010, but if you trade as opposed to go back to FA, you can get the type of player you want as opposed to the type of player that's...left available.




And this is coming from someone who likes Boozer alright, even to this day.

[Red Larrivee]

Noah and Asik are both centers that will affect the CBA-friendliness. Isn't it possible to trade one next year that chops off the future money and brings you back a pretty good player?

But why would you sign Asik, to trade him next year? Plus, you're going to find a hard time finding a taker for Asik who's going to pay him $14M the next year. Coldfish and others have explained why that $14M isn't so great in the final year as an expiring. I don't think your return is going to be worth it and it's likely going to have the Bulls taking on more money and ruining the retool plan.

Also is it out of the question to trade Noah, Charlotte pick plus Boozer for a player that is pretty darn good (and cuts off future money as well)? Boozer is an albatross now w/ three years, but with only two years left on a deal he will be more attractive to teams.

Noah and Boozer going out though would be close to $30M in salary. That's a lot of money for any team to take on and I don't think it guarantees you get anyone good. This just doesn't seem like a good alternative than looking towards 2014 and not having to take on more bad contracts just to shuffle the deck.

[AAU Teammate]

Noah and Asik are both centers that will affect the CBA-friendliness. Isn't it possible to trade one next year that chops off the future money and brings you back a pretty good player?

But why would you sign Asik, to trade him next year? Plus, you're going to find a hard time finding a take for Asik who's not going to pay him $14M the next year. I don't think your return is going to be worth it.

Also is it out of the question to trade Noah, Charlotte pick plus Boozer for a player that is pretty darn good (and cuts off future money as well)? Boozer is an albatross now w/ three years, but with only two years left on a deal he will be more attractive to teams.

Noah and Boozer going out though would be close to $30M in salary. That's a lot of money for any team to take on and I don't think it guarantees you get anyone good. This just doesn't seem like a good alternative than looking towards 2014 and not having to take on more bad contracts just to shuffle the deck.

You asked me if there are alternatives to FA. My answer is there will be trades.

If you're going to say Noah is untradeable, Asik is untradeable...then great, you have officially won the debate. Trophy presentation in ten.

[Red Larrivee]

You asked me if there are alternatives to FA. My answer is there will be trades.

Trades that bring what?

If you're going to say Noah is untradeable, Asik is untradeable...then great, you have officially won the debate. Trophy presentation in ten.

How did you read any of what I wrote and conclude that I'm saying Noah and Asik are untradeable? I said from the scenarios you laid out, it doesn't really seem like something we should be banking on.

What you should ask yourself, is whether the trades you're making are better than clearing most of the books and doing free agency. Just because you're making a trade, doesn't mean you're getting a good player back.

Noah/Boozer/Bobcats pick for what exactly? And who makes that deal?

A team giving you something valuable without really considering the final year of Asik's contract and how much of their cap it'll take up? It's not completely out of the question, but again what team makes that deal while giving you something really good?

We can throw vague trade scenarios at a wall all day, but it doesn't make it a great plan.

[AAU Teammate]

You asked me if there are alternatives to FA. My answer is there will be trades.

Trades that bring what?

If you're going to say Noah is untradeable, Asik is untradeable...then great, you have officially won the debate. Trophy presentation in ten.

How did you read any of what I wrote and conclude that I'm saying Noah and Asik are untradeable? I said from the scenarios you laid out, it doesn't really seem like something we should be banking on.

What you should ask yourself, is whether the trades you're making are better than clearing most of the books and doing free agency. Just because you're making a trade, doesn't mean you're getting a good player back.

Noah/Boozer/Bobcats pick for what exactly? And who makes that deal?

A team giving you something valuable without really considering the final year of Asik's contract and how much of their cap it'll take up? It's not completely out of the question, but again what team makes that deal while giving you something really good?

I just can't gather why you're bugging me for specifics when you're just as incapable of telling me what exactly we'll be getting in FA in a few years.

Neither of us can promise the other one great things, but I think it's a little far for you to reach to automatically say trades won't bring back much.

If you bank on a future trade, you are keeping your team together while you explore those options each offseason. If you just start dumping assets, then you are going right back into the realm of waiting for FAs to come out, dance you, then go to warm weather or NY. And then you get scraps leftover.

[kyrv]

It's not like we completely struck out in 2010 FA. Boozer was a very attractive FA at the time and had other max offers from other teams and chose the Bulls.

We didn't strike out in 2010, but if you trade as opposed to go back to FA, you can get the type of player you want as opposed to the type of player that's...left available.




And this is coming from someone who likes Boozer alright, even to this day.

The Bulls have actually had abnormally good luck in FA for a non-NY/TX/FL/CA team, but I don't want to do FA because it is a crap shoot, I don't think their luck will continue, I agree trading is just much better.

The thread of cap space is huge leverage of course.

It's so funny, well no it's sad, people pretend the Bulls struck out in 2006 and 2010 , they should look at all the teams that clear space and the average haul and they'd see the Bulls are in the very top tier. But it's incredibly unreliable and that luck might not continue.

[Red Larrivee]

I just can't gather why you're bugging me for specifics when you're just as incapable of telling me what exactly we'll be getting in FA in a few years.

That's the thing, I've long supported a retool for 2014 or 2015 with the plan of the Bulls setting themselves up to potentially get Kevin Love. If the Timberwolves become contenders in the West, then that could throw it off, but that's probably pretty unlikely and his recent comments speaks volumes of the predictable direction that three-year extensions of superstars go.

Either way, there's at least a building block of a plan in place there. Is there a building block of a trade you have in mind?

Neither of us can promise the other one great things, but I think it's a little far for you to reach to automatically say trades won't bring back much.

Is the return you're getting from Asik trade good enough reason to justify just not matching him at all and having to deal with the salary? Especially if like you're saying, trading him his 2nd year and finding a sucker...i mean team to take that AND give you something valuable. I didn't say it was completely out of question, just unlikely that a team is giving you assets for a crap contract. It'd effectively be a 2year/19millionish deal for a backup center.

If you bank on a future trade, you are keeping your team together while you explore those options each offseason. If you just start dumping assets, then you are going right back into the realm of waiting for FAs to come out, dance you, then go to warm weather or NY. And then you get scraps leftover.

If you bank on trades you're increasing payroll and giving yourself no real chance of flexibility at all. There's nothing wrong with retooling again through free agency, we all knew it'd likely go back to that if the team was in a spot where they weren't in position to reallly win a title with the current group.

And contrary to belief, under Paxson there hasn't been an offseason where we had cap space and returned a worse team for the following season.

[AAU Teammate]

Also something to factor in is that Derrick Rose will not be around forever, and that a player relying on athleticism is at his best before age 30. Especially a small scorer who takes hits.

Waiting for 2014 offseason means you want to lop two years off his 6 year window. You want to eliminate 28% of Rose's title winning potential years....and then at the end of that maybe get nothing.

And on top of that what I'm supposed to be beside myself with anticipation for: Kevin Love

[GetBuLLish]

And contrary to belief, under Paxson there hasn't been an offseason where we had cap space and returned a worse team for the following season.

You can't sh*t on the team for being a great regular season team and not a championship team, while on the other hand praise Paxson's cap space prowess simply because it fits your argument.

In other words, Paxson's ability to work with cap space created the team which you consistently said isn't going to win a championship and should thus be retooled. You can't now argue that Paxson's ability to use cap space is an argument for retooling.

[Red Larrivee]

Also something to factor in is that Derrick Rose will not be around forever, and that a player relying on athleticism is at his best before age 30. Especially a small scorer who takes hits.

Waiting for 2014 offseason means you want to lop two years off his 6 year window. You want to eliminate 28% of Rose's title winning potential years....and then at the end of that maybe get nothing.

That's the thing, you're not losing any a ton of talent between 2012-2014. We lose Asik this year. We lose Rip next year. The summer of 2014 is when Deng will be a free agent and the latest we could amnesty Boozer. Otherwise from 2012-2014, you still have Rose/Deng/Boozer/Noah/Gibson, you just lack a bench because the Bulls have already made the decision to move on from it.

It's not like the 2014 plan requires the Bulls to drop a bunch of good players right now. All they would have to do is drop Asik and they're on board.

And on top of that what I'm supposed to be beside myself with anticipation for: Kevin Love

Kevin Love? You mean the guy who's better than any not-Rose player on this team, and any other player we could even realistically dream of getting in a trade? He's really **** good.

[kyrv]

And contrary to belief, under Paxson there hasn't been an offseason where we had cap space and returned a worse team for the following season.

You can't sh*t on the team for being a great regular season team and not a championship team, while on the other hand praise Paxson's cap space prowess simply because it fits your argument.

In other words, Paxson's ability to work with cap space created the team which you consistently said isn't going to win a championship and should thus be retooled. You can't now argue that Paxson's ability to use cap space is an argument for retooling.

They are separate things. Building a contender is something that is rarely done and not the same thing as improving the team. Detroit for example had a FA summer and made the team worse.

[megamax]

I just can't gather why you're bugging me for specifics when you're just as incapable of telling me what exactly we'll be getting in FA in a few years.

That's the thing, I've long supported a retool for 2014 or 2015 with the plan of the Bulls setting themselves up to potentially get Kevin Love. If the Timberwolves become contenders in the West, then that could throw it off, but that's probably pretty unlikely and his recent comments speaks volumes of the predictable direction that three-year extensions of superstars go.

Either way, there's at least a building block of a plan in place there. Is there a building block of a trade you have in mind?

Neither of us can promise the other one great things, but I think it's a little far for you to reach to automatically say trades won't bring back much.

Is the return you're getting from Asik trade good enough reason to justify just not matching him at all and having to deal with the salary? Especially if like you're saying, trading him his 2nd year and finding a sucker...i mean team to take that AND give you something valuable. I didn't say it was completely out of question, just unlikely that a team is giving you assets for a crap contract. It'd effectively be a 2year/19millionish deal for a backup center.

If you bank on a future trade, you are keeping your team together while you explore those options each offseason. If you just start dumping assets, then you are going right back into the realm of waiting for FAs to come out, dance you, then go to warm weather or NY. And then you get scraps leftover.

If you bank on trades you're increasing payroll and giving yourself no real chance of flexibility at all. There's nothing wrong with retooling again through free agency, we all knew it'd likely go back to that if the team was in a spot where they weren't in position to reallly win a title with the current group.

And contrary to belief, under Paxson there hasn't been an offseason where we had cap space and returned a worse team for the following season.

Red, what your forgetting is that Love isn't a free agent in 2014/2015 so the only way that you can get him is if you trade for him. Our biggest trade chip will probably be Noah. I think the willingness of the Bulls to move Noah would be greater if Asik were on the roster

[Red Larrivee]

You can't sh*t on the team for being a great regular season team and not a championship team, while on the other hand praise Paxson's cap space prowess simply because it fits your argument.

In other words, Paxson's ability to work with cap space created the team which you consistently said isn't going to win a championship and should thus be retooled. You can't now argue that Paxson's ability to use cap space is an argument for retooling.

That's actually not it. The argument was that the Bulls don't do well in free agency, so they shouldn't plan to retool with free agency, when they actually put together good squads because of it.

I haven't doubted that the team we put together isn't good, I've doubted that the payroll structure of this team has prevented us from really being able to fix the necessary flaws present. If we aim for 2014, then I would be hoping that long-term we're putting together a team that's more compatible with the new CBA and basketball-wise. My other point is that the retool was always something the Bulls had in mind, so going for it really isn't stepping off-course.

Red, what your forgetting is that Love isn't a free agent in 2014/2015 so the only way that you can get him is if you trade for him. Our biggest trade chip will probably be Noah. I think the willingness of the Bulls to move Noah would be greater if Asik were on the roster

I know Love isn't a free agent until the summer of 2015. But the point is that as case with all the other superstar trades, if he wants out he's going to demand out starting that summer and try to drive a trade before the 2015 trade deadline. The Bulls would be in good position.

Getting a second star should be the main goal, and figuring out the rest later. If we have to deal Noah for Love and not have Asik on the roster, then that's fine with me. It'd be easier to build with Rose and Love already in place.

[kyrv]

Question----if they are trying to get dwight they need us and NYK to match--can we hold HOU Hostage on this one--try and get them to take Boozer for Lee + TPE or we won't match Asik.

They will have a D12 buddy--they are not getting CP3 anyway and they seem to be doing a lot of dumb moves anyway.

That's not legal apparently and I wouldn't put it past Houston to 'tell on us' to Principal/King David!

[GetBuLLish]

That's actually not it. The argument was that the Bulls don't do well in free agency, so they shouldn't plan to retool with free agency, when they actually put together good squads because of it.

Yes, but those "good squads" you speak of are the same exact squads you have complained about as being regular season champs and depth reliant.

You have complained about the type of team Paxon has built through cap space. And now you are trying to argue that Paxon's ability to use cap space is a reason for going the retool route.

You're on both sides of the aisle here.

[GetBuLLish]

Question----if they are trying to get dwight they need us and NYK to match--can we hold HOU Hostage on this one--try and get them to take Boozer for Lee + TPE or we won't match Asik.

If Houston needs Chicago to match Asik due to the $8 million they'd owe him, why would taking on Boozer's $15 million be any better? Is the TPE gonna make up that huge difference, and then some?

[kyrv]

That's actually not it. The argument was that the Bulls don't do well in free agency, so they shouldn't plan to retool with free agency, when they actually put together good squads because of it.

Yes, but those "good squads" you speak of are the same exact squads you have complained about as being regular season champs and depth reliant.

You have complained about the type of team Paxon has built through cap space. And now you are trying to argue that Paxon's ability to use cap space is a reason for going the retool route.

You're on both sides of the aisle here.

I don't agree at all, the Bulls built a contender in 2010 and at some point it's time to re-tool, Red is saying, tweaks this year and more in 2014. The success of FA is a crap shoot and doesn't mean they can repeat the successes of 2006 and 2010 but you can try, this time with an established team/coach/star. Those could all be pluses.

[GetBuLLish]

I don't agree at all, the Bulls built a contender in 2010 and at some point it's time to re-tool, Red is saying, tweaks this year and more in 2014. The success of FA is a crap shoot and doesn't mean they can repeat the successes of 2006 and 2010 but you can try, this time with an established team/coach/star. Those could all be pluses.

Kyrv, I'm speaking completely from Red's viewpoint.

He has, on numerous occasions, complained about how the Bulls were built to be regular season champs and that they are too depth reliant. Well, the team was built like that in large part due to how Paxon used our 2010 cap space. So if Red is going to make that complaint, he can't now use Paxon's cap space track record as a means of beefing up his retool argument. That's disingenuous.

Note: I thought this team was a championship contender and not just regular season champs.