Bynum better than Howard offensively myth

Stebo_SSK · Post #1 » by **Stebo_SSK** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:26 pm

Howard: 20.6 ppg, .573 FG, 13.4 FGA per game, 3.7 OREB in 38.6 MPG

Bynum: 18.7 ppg, .558 FG, 13.3 FGA per game, 3.2 OREB in 35.2 MPG

Also noted: When Kobe was out of the lineup Bynum averaged a FG% of 42%.

Andrew Bynum greatly benefits from the other offensive threats that LA has specifically Kobe. He isnt that efficient when even weaker defensive teams key in on him. I know the 5 games when Kobe was out was a small sample but even in that stretch the best he shot from the field was .579 on 19 shots against the weak interior of the Nuggets. It's time to put the debate to rest that Bynum is a better offensive player than Howard. Howard may not have the prettiest moves but he gets the ball in the basket and has been the #1 option surrounded by mediocre talent for some time now. If you disagree please provide a strong argument to refute this post.

Beethoven · Post #2 » by **Beethoven** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:31 pm

I think what people are saying is that Bynum has a wider offensive range than howard.

Bynum has the offensive skills, he just needs to develop where he can still be effective against double teams and be able to pass better inside out. That will come. Hopefully.

Dwight has better mobility fundamentals down but doesnt have the repetoire.

So in the end, the projection is that Bynum should post much better offensive numbers in a couple of years. While Dwight has reached his peak i believe.

s3antana5757 · Post #3 » by **s3antana5757** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:35 pm

I'm one who thinks that Dwight would thrive offensively in LA because of the pick and roll game and his athleticism. Also pairing him with Pau would only improve his offensive skills because he's a great mid-range jumpshooter. I don't know if there's a finer pair together.

Here's my opinion as to why Bynum is better. This is coming from a HS basketball coach who knows and understands the game. Bynum simply has the more polished post game. He has the moves and understands positioning better than Howard does. Dwight relies on his athleticism(dunks), rebounding(put backs), and other guys(Nelson, shooters) to give him opportunities. Bynum doesn't need anyone else's help to be effective. He has the post moves; jump hooks, drop steps, spin backs, a decent jumper. As they both age, Dwight is going to lose his athleticism and Bynum is still going to be able to go back to the same moves and have them work(ala Tim Duncan although he's not even in the same class at Timmy). You failed to bold the part about Bynum playing three less minutes per game than Howard.

When you're best players are out of the line-up, you're going to face more double teams. It's that simple. Everyone is less effective when playing against double teams. Dwight, Shaq, Duncan etc. If you take Wade and Bosh off the court with LeBron, he's not nearly as effective. Just see his Cleveland years for proof.

I'm a proponent of bringing Dwight to LA because I think his defense and rebounding are far superior to Bynum's(although he's catching up), and because we don't need a guy who's able to post up and score at will. We have other guys who can score(Kobe, Nash, Pau). So the difference between Bynum's post skills and Howards are negated by the improvement of the individuals surrounding him. Also, Nash to Dwight on the pick and roll is going to be unguardable when you have Pau at the mid-range and Kobe moving around also. Where's the help going to come from?

Matt6288 · Post #4 » by **Matt6288** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:41 pm

Yea basically Bynum is more skilled then Howard on offense but overall i'd take Dwight any day, not that Bynum is bad (because clearly he's not) but Howard is just a better all round player and he actually really wants to win all the time....

Stebo_SSK · Post #5 » by **Stebo_SSK** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:48 pm

I hear you guys saying that he is more polished or skilled but when that doesn't translate into production its pretty useless. Its like having a pretty woman with no common sense. Im sure Marc Gasol is more polished on the block than Howard but does he produce at that level no, so therefore the assessment of how polished Bynum's post game is (which really is quite overrated) nonsense. Al Jefferson has a polished post game.

desertlakerfan · Post #6 » by **desertlakerfan** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:49 pm

You're completely ignoring FTA which show Howard gets more touches/opportunities with the ball than Bynum.

Bynum - 5.6 FTA
Howard - 10.6 FTA

Bynum is more skilled offensively overall and has yet to reach his peak at 24.

With that being said, Howard is still the better fit here with Nash due to his quickness. It's just no myth that Bynum is better offensively.

Michael Lucky · Post #7 » by **Michael Lucky** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:53 pm

also helps the PPG that Howard is the first option. I'm not sure he gets 18PPG on the Lakers next year.

eckoner · Post #8 » by **eckoner** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:58 pm

I agree that some have used the term "Bynum better offensively" but i never paid any attention to that because i have always been one to believe Bynum had a wider offensive skillset but it has yet to translate into better point production. With that said Bynum is pretty damn close and is clearly getting better.

The question is Howard! Is he still getting better?

Also to throw out there a few points related to Howard Vs. Bynum
*Howard more consistent offensively and defensively
*Howard more athletic
*Howard more mobile and will kill it in the P&R
*Howard more likeable and marketable
*Howard more physically durable

And i am so damn scared of Bynum's knee's and his physical makeup. (Patrick Ewing build)

lakerz12 · Post #9 » by **lakerz12** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:03 pm

IMO Howard is just plainly better than Bynum in every facet of the game outside of free throw shooting

Most importantly, he has a will to win and won't just whine and quit

Don't get me wrong...Bynum is a very talented player and I think we will still win the championship if we simply retain him, but...

This is a great opportunity to unload Bynum for a stud before he possibly goes down with injury.

Sedale Threatt · Post #10 » by **Sedale Threatt** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:16 pm

briansaddleback wrote:I think what people are saying is that Bynum has a wider offensive range than howard.

Which means exactly squat. Vlade Divac was way more skilled than Shaq -- who would you take?

Wavy Q · Post #11 » by **Wavy Q** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:17 pm

Bynum has a wider array on offense

which equates to nothing because Howard scores at a more efficient rate.

AcecardZ · Post #12 » by **AcecardZ** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:19 pm

If I just wanted to watch players I like I'd stick with Big Daddy Bynum but I want to win and given the group of guys on the Lakers now there's no question Dwight is a better fit than Bynum! Four years from now if Bynum is beasting for Cleveland or Houston I'll be very happy for him especially if the Nash, Kobe, Pau, Dwight combo gets a couple of rings first...

Also, sometimes it takes making tough/unpopular moves to get better. Remember the Norm Nixon trade in the early 80's? Nobody liked that move but it worked out perfectly.

AcecardZ · Post #13 » by **AcecardZ** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:28 pm

Also if we're going to hope to compete with OKC and Miami we're going to need the best defensive player in the game to do so. Dwight is unquestionably the beat defensive center in the league right now and his speed and athleticism will go a long ways towards preventing guys like LeBron and Durant from getting to the rim against us.

Stebo_SSK · Post #14 » by **Stebo_SSK** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:47 pm

desertlakerfan wrote:You're completely ignoring FTA which show Howard gets more touches/opportunities with the ball than Bynum.

Bynum - 5.6 FTA
Howard - 10.6 FTA

Bynum is more skilled offensively overall and has yet to reach his peak at 24.

With that being said, Howard is still the better fit here with Nash due to his quickness. It's just no myth that Bynum is better offensively.

You really going to base your argument totally around FT shooting? Which means nothing b/c the fact is, even though Howard shoots more FT he shoots a horrible percentage. Fact is, Howard still avg more points on the same amt of FGA a game while being the 1st option with 0 all star talent on his team. How can one question that whether Howard could put up 18 a game in LA but Bynum can? I even noted that Bynum shot an average wingman's percentage when Kobe was out for those 5 games. How on earth does that make him better? Alot of you guys are blinded by the fact that you either like Bynum or really dislike Howard. Rafer Alston was a better ball handler than Steve Nash but does that make him run an offense better or make better offensive decisions? No...so therefore Howard by FACTS not FEELINGS is a better offensive player.

nbaintel1 · Post #15 » by **nbaintel1** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:54 pm

Stebo_SSK wrote:
desertlakerfan wrote:You're completely ignoring FTA which show Howard gets more touches/opportunities with the ball than Bynum.

Bynum - 5.6 FTA
Howard - 10.6 FTA

Bynum is more skilled offensively overall and has yet to reach his peak at 24.

With that being said, Howard is still the better fit here with Nash due to his quickness. It's just no myth that Bynum is better offensively.

You really going to base your argument totally around FT shooting? Which means nothing b/c the fact is, even though Howard shoots more FT he shoots a horrible percentage. Fact is, Howard still avg more points on the same amt of FGA a game while being the 1st option with 0 all star talent on his team. How can one question that whether Howard could put up 18 a game in LA but Bynum can? I even noted that Bynum shot an average wingman's percentage when Kobe was out for those 5 games. How on earth does that make him better? Alot of you guys are blinded by the fact that you either like Bynum or really dislike Howard. Rafer Alston was a better ball handler than Steve Nash but does that make him run an offense better or make better offensive decisions? No...so therefore Howard by FACTS not FEELINGS is a better offensive player.

Each FT counts as 2 shots.

So in reality, Dwight shot about 19 shots to get to 20.6PPG. Bynum shot 16 shots to get to 18.7PPG.

Bynum was more efficient with a higher TS%.

As for Bynum having an easier time with Kobe, I disagree. Many Lakers fans also disagree:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1193445

But to best honest, I want Dwight over Bynum on offense too because he goes at it harder everyday.

desertlakerfan · Post #16 » by **desertlakerfan** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:04 pm

Stebo_SSK wrote:
You really going to base your argument totally around FT shooting? Which means nothing b/c the fact is, even though Howard shoots more FT he shoots a horrible percentage. Fact is, Howard still avg more points on the same amt of FGA a game while being the 1st option with 0 all star talent on his team. How can one question that whether Howard could put up 18 a game in LA but Bynum can? I even noted that Bynum shot an average wingman's percentage when Kobe was out for those 5 games. How on earth does that make him better? Alot of you guys are blinded by the fact that you either like Bynum or really dislike Howard. Rafer Alston was a better ball handler than Steve Nash but does that make him run an offense better or make better offensive decisions? No...so therefore Howard by FACTS not FEELINGS is a better offensive player.

Bolding their FGA while neglecting to mention their FTA is highly suspect when trying to make the point that they get the same amount of touches, Im sure Im not the only one to notice this.

Howard averaged 1.9 more ppg than Bynum while Howard was the #1 option and Bynum ate second behind Kobe who had a historically high usage rate last year. Those 5 games Kobe was out are too small a sample to make any astute proclamations off of like "Bynum shoots like a wingman without Kobe." You said it yourself in the first post which is why I ignored it in my first reply.

Your last "point" honestly makes no sense, ball handling is one aspect of offense while Bynum is better than Dwight in many offensive areas. and you've done little to sway me towards your opinion that Howard is a better offensive player than Bynum. There aren't too many who'd even think of making that claim.

Im not even arguing that Bynum is a better fit with this team now that Nash is our PG, I know Howard is, but we need to be realistic about Howard's game when comparing it to Bynums and not mislead people like your original post tries to do.

Stebo_SSK · Post #17 » by **Stebo_SSK** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:18 pm

Im not trying to mislead anyone, so not sure where you got that idea from. Even though it was only 5 games total, the fact that this "skilled' Center shot 42 percent from the field when Kobe was gone speaks volumes. As pointed out before, Vlade Divac and Ardevus Sybonus (sp?) had a better offensive repertoire than Shaq did but does that make them BETTER offensively? No. You can make the case that Bynum is more SKILLED than Howard but no BETTER or MORE EFFICIENT than Howard. Lets not confuse the 2.

LocLaker · Post #18 » by **LocLaker** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:20 pm

the majority of the shots that howard takes are always from at rim to 9 feet. avg 12.9 shot. 74.4% at the rim. bynum 73.2. not much of a difference. Howard does dunk alot and finishes strong though. and1%8.0 bynum and1%5.0.

TS%59.4 bynum
TS%56.9 howard

efg%57.3 howard
efg%55.8 bymun

both players are efficient. with bymun being the better post player down low when it comes to moves, fundamentals and such. but howard is the better defender, rebounder and more productive player.

Code: Select all

Player           PER TRB% AST% STL% USG% DRtg  DWS
Andrew Bynum    19.8 17.1  7.4  0.6 19.6  102 15.8
Dwight Howard   22.5 21.0  7.4  1.5 23.5   98 47.1

One Love · Post #19 » by **One Love** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:31 pm

Bynum has more low post moves and a better jump shiot, period...

desertlakerfan · Post #20 » by **desertlakerfan** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:32 pm

Stebo_SSK wrote:Im not trying to mislead anyone, so not sure where you got that idea from. Even though it was only 5 games total, the fact that this "skilled' Center shot 42 percent from the field when Kobe was gone speaks volumes. As pointed out before, Vlade Divac and Ardevus Sybonus (sp?) had a better offensive repertoire than Shaq did but does that make them BETTER offensively? No. You can make the case that Bynum is more SKILLED than Howard but no BETTER or MORE EFFICIENT than Howard. Lets not confuse the 2.

Ignoring the disparity between their FTA when discussing efficiency and usage is misleading whether it was your intention or not.

As for Shaq he put up much better offensive numbers than Vlade or Sabonis, it's a weak argument when bringing up a comparison between Bynum and Dwight since the latter actually have comparable offensive production. Vlade and Sabonis were skilled, but Shaq put up much better numbers and was a dominant offensive force. Dwight is not dominant, and Bynum is both more skilled and putting up similar numbers. He's the better offensive player.