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Doug on "2014 Plan"

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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#181 » by DanTown8587 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:38 pm

Ralphb07 wrote:
Bulls trade CJ Watson and cash to Sacramento for top 58 protected 2nd rd pick
Bulls trade Ronnie Brewer and cash to Charlotte for top 58 protected 2nd rd pick

Not saying giving up anything at all for these other teams. All they have to do is some paperwork.


Maybe those teams weren't interested in the little cash helping the Bulls land TPE. Every team is looking to improve their team. You have to keep in mind teams will also go head to head for players and just giving the Bulls all those assets for little cash may not be worth it in the long run.

Also only being able to spend 3 mil a year, the Bulls may be using that to get Hamilton's deal off the books during this season.


Yeah, Sacramento is turning down money, as is Charlotte. Sacramento traded their pick in the 2nd rd for cash. The Bulls could have just done that deal.

The Bulls clock for the money they can spend ENDED AT THE DRAFT. There is no argument against them spending money to gain assets besides the spending of the money.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#182 » by kyrv » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:39 pm

Bruteque wrote:
kyrv wrote:Those aren't real choices, you are just totally making this up.

In comparison to the average NBA front office, collectively, fans are about 10% as smart as they think they are.


That was obviously a conceptual demonstration, not an exercise in "making up actual numbers."

Dealing in assets with value yet to be firmly established is how you add value (and obviously, it is also how you lose value). When you are comfortable with the firmly established value of your team, you make the moves the Bulls FO has been making this offseason. You take on other firmly established value. If you are not satisfied with that, then you need to take chances, as Riersen (spelling?) has pointed out. Maybe you win, maybe you don't.

Concept Coop wrote:Please, sir. Tell me what the front office could have done to improve our championship chances by 1,000%.


You are missing the point. The question is, what is your goal? If your talent level goal is 1.5 rounds of playoffs, then given what we have right now, the best strategy is to sign/trade/deal in firmly established value. That maximizes our chances of staying at that talent level. If you are not satisfied with that and you want to aim higher, then risk is virtually necessarily involved. Maybe you get better, maybe you get worse. Your chances of getting better and getting worse are both increased with higher risk moves dealing with assets which don't yet have firmly established values. It's just that you don't really have much of a choice if you are not satisfied with your current talent level.


If that's true about the FO, then they are a great fit for the fan base, which is incredibly risk averse. I don't understand why fans say they want high risks, history shows they don't. I have one of the highest risk tolerances here oddly enough.

Also it's not that easy to just 'get better', or every team would be really good. The Bulls have been, by the way, really good.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#183 » by Mech Engineer » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:45 pm

DanTown8587 wrote:
Ralphb07 wrote:
Bulls trade CJ Watson and cash to Sacramento for top 58 protected 2nd rd pick
Bulls trade Ronnie Brewer and cash to Charlotte for top 58 protected 2nd rd pick

Not saying giving up anything at all for these other teams. All they have to do is some paperwork.


Maybe those teams weren't interested in the little cash helping the Bulls land TPE. Every team is looking to improve their team. You have to keep in mind teams will also go head to head for players and just giving the Bulls all those assets for little cash may not be worth it in the long run.

Also only being able to spend 3 mil a year, the Bulls may be using that to get Hamilton's deal off the books during this season.


Yeah, Sacramento is turning down money, as is Charlotte. Sacramento traded their pick in the 2nd rd for cash. The Bulls could have just done that deal.

The Bulls clock for the money they can spend ENDED AT THE DRAFT. There is no argument against them spending money to gain assets besides the spending of the money.


That is in essence what some people are complaining. They expect the Bulls to spend every possible dime legally to improve the team for 2013-14 and beyond whether it is keeping assets, collecting assets or trading for assets. We all know it is a business(no need to be reminded of that). But, as one of the highest revenue teams and having a superstar....there is no better time to add/keep assets whether it is a down year or not.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#184 » by Rerisen » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:45 pm

AAU Teammate wrote:Maybe I'm naive, but I'd like to move our established talent for established talent.


Except we just lost established talent. Especially Asik and Korver.

Personally, I believe the Bulls had Championship Talent on this team last year.

It was just wrongly balanced. And we all know what side lacked balance. And that the result of that imbalance was getting called regular season champions, over reliance on depth that wasn't able to be brought to bear in postseason as much, and compounding breakdowns on offense against top defenses. And yet... we still had a chance to win even despite all that - we'll never know.

But we had enough total talent on hand, that if we did what you said, talent for talent trades, in the right manner, we could leverage that total champion talent in a way that actually did produce a title. Or very great shot at one again.

Right now I'm no longer sure we do have championship talent on this roster - even if a good fit trade did present itself this year. Talent is not something you can cut even a little bit, without falling behind a few slots in the NBA hierarchy. It's that close and competitive at the top.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#185 » by League Circles » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:50 pm

I'm sorry if this has been discussed, but I can't read the 12 pages, so I thought I'd address this after reading the article:

The Bulls don't have to have a cent tied up in Butler, Teague, any other draft picks, or Mirotic in summer 2014 if they don't want to. They can opt not to pay any of those guys, and for the most part, IIRC, those decisions can be made that summer.

The only guys under contract that summer if Boozer is amnestied will be Noah, Rose, and hopefully Taj. It's I think 31.4 for Noah and Rose, so with Taj making say 8 mil that year, and about 4-5 million total in cap holds, the Bulls should definitely be in play to offer a max deal to someone, plus another guy making a few mil to be a 5th starter, plus they'd have the "room" mid level. The rest would then have to be minimum guys, but a lineup of Noah, Taj, Rose, max FA/trade recipient, 3 millionish 5th starter, room mid level 6th man, and vet minimum guys is certainly a possibility.

I'm not saying there are guys as FAs worth the max that year as FAs, I'm just saying it's very doable. All the draft picks and Mirotic are owed nothing in 2014. I think the Bulls would be looking to take on a huge max deal in trade using mostly cap space rather than having to match and take back bad contracts. They could deal the rights to Mirotic and the Bobcats #1 for a star who wants out with one year left on his deal.

But aside from all that, I don't think the Bulls are planning on blowing up the team in 2014. I think they want to have the option to. There is a big difference. It's a nice fall back plan if the next two years don't go that well. To be able to add a max FA or trade to a core of Rose, Noah, and Taj while they're all under 30 would be great.

But the more likely scenario is extending Deng, bringing over Mirotic with the MMLE or MLE, and trying to trade or sign a SG upgrade. If Butler or a player drafted next year or signed with the MMLE/MLE next summer can be a long term SG possibly (unlikely but you never know), then we're in great shape. The Bulls will want to be able to use the MMLE or MLE on Mirotic in summer 2014 if they don't go the cap space route, and since Kirk, RIP, and Belinelli will almost certainly all be gone then, the Bulls will want to trade for, draft, or sign a SG next summer to be the SG in 2014 if they use their exception on Mirotic as planned.

Thus, the 2014 plan isn't a plan, it's a great contingency plan that isn't costing us much to keep alive. It's the fallback plan if the next two years don't go like we hope they will.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#186 » by Mech Engineer » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:00 pm

Another lesson to be learnt from Howard's saga is what has happened until now. Orlando has not traded him even after they have found teams which have cap-space and he one-time preferred(Dallas) or even Brooklyn(when they had space) or to a good/winning destination like the Lakers even after he has been kicking and screaming.

If a sane GM like Orlando's can do that...imagine the same scenario with David Kahn.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#187 » by Bruteque » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:10 pm

kyrv wrote:If that's true about the FO, then they are a great fit for the fan base, which is incredibly risk averse. I don't understand why fans say they want high risks, history shows they don't. I have one of the highest risk tolerances here oddly enough.

Also it's not that easy to just 'get better', or every team would be really good. The Bulls have been, by the way, really good.


That's essentially what Riersen pointed out in the original post I responded to, and the relevant point I wanted to discuss. Being risk averse and wanting the Bulls to "go for it" with "it" being championship level talent are two positions which aren't very compatible right now.

If you ask the fans whether they want high risk moves, you will probably get different answers from different fans, but if you ask them what their talent aim is, I doubt that you are going to get too many who say that they are aiming for 1.5 rounds of playoffs. What I am trying to point out here is that, given the Bulls' current situation, being risk averse is the rough equivalent of aiming for 1.5 rounds of playoffs.

Personally, I have no affinity to high risk or low risk. It's all about the aim. It's a matter of which path maximizes your chance of reaching your aim. If the Bulls were already drowning in good contracts ready to pounce on a championship, then I will want to deal exclusively in assets with firmly established value, too, because that would minmize their chances of dropping below championship level talent, and that is the aim.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#188 » by Dieselbound&Down » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:20 pm

DuckIII wrote:
Lanky Gunner wrote:
DuckIII wrote:I wish I wasn't in my car so I could blast this.


You're posting from your car? :eek1:


Stoplights.


I've been to your hometown. 2 posts pretty much covers all the lights in town you would hit.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#189 » by dougthonus » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:28 pm

aaqubed wrote:I think it's more like, they're making cost cutting moves now because they don't believe that the moves that they could have made (that would cost lots of money) would actually help them win a title. If Rose were healthy, I'm not sure that they let Asik walk.


But this is demonstrably false. They could have traded for draft picks for guys they later waived. However, they didn't do that in order to save money. Having extra first rounders vs nothing would help them win in the future, but they choose nothing.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#190 » by dougthonus » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:30 pm

Concept Coop wrote:No. They're making them to find the best blance of flexiblity and talent.

You're condeming them for not picking one of two polar opposite paths; it doesn't have to be one or the other, and it doesn't have to be today.


Trading Watson/Brewer for bad salary and picks doesn't hurt flexibility, it helps it by adding more assets.

Keeping WAtson/Brewer/Korver wouldn't hurt flexibility, it would help it.

There's no flexibility to be gained by waiving guys whom you could have kept on expiring deals or swapped out for draft choices and a contract back to save a team money. The only reason those moves make sense is to save money.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#191 » by League Circles » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:31 pm

dougthonus wrote:
aaqubed wrote:I think it's more like, they're making cost cutting moves now because they don't believe that the moves that they could have made (that would cost lots of money) would actually help them win a title. If Rose were healthy, I'm not sure that they let Asik walk.


But this is demonstrably false. They could have traded for draft picks for guys they later waived. However, they didn't do that in order to save money. Having extra first rounders vs nothing would help them win in the future, but they choose nothing.


Does someone have a source that we could have traded any of Brewer, CJ or Kyle for a first round pick? That seem extremely hard to believe. Those guys have since been proven to be worth jack.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#192 » by thunderspirit » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:31 pm

dougthonus wrote:
aaqubed wrote:I think it's more like, they're making cost cutting moves now because they don't believe that the moves that they could have made (that would cost lots of money) would actually help them win a title. If Rose were healthy, I'm not sure that they let Asik walk.


But this is demonstrably false. They could have traded for draft picks for guys they later waived. However, they didn't do that in order to save money. Having extra first rounders vs nothing would help them win in the future, but they choose nothing.

I respectfully disagree; in light of for what each player wound up signing, I see zero evidence that the Bulls could have traded Watson or Brewer, at their former salaries, for anything.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#193 » by League Circles » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:32 pm

Sorry, nevermind, I see you're talking about taking back salary. In which case you're right.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#194 » by Concept Coop » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:35 pm

dougthonus wrote:Trading Watson/Brewer for bad salary and picks doesn't hurt flexibility, it helps it by adding more assets.

Not having bad contracts is an asset. Why do you think teams pay draft picks to get rid of them? It ABSOLUTELY hurts future flexibility.

How many late first round draft picks are going to help you feel better should Dwight chagne his tune and we don't have the capspace to take him?
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#195 » by DanTown8587 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm

Mech Engineer wrote:
That is in essence what some people are complaining. They expect the Bulls to spend every possible dime legally to improve the team for 2013-14 and beyond whether it is keeping assets, collecting assets or trading for assets. We all know it is a business(no need to be reminded of that). But, as one of the highest revenue teams and having a superstar....there is no better time to add/keep assets whether it is a down year or not.


There is of course a balance. I'm not advocating massive expenditures. You're talking like two million dollars. Three million. At the absolute most.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#196 » by Rerisen » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:42 pm

Bruteque wrote:That's essentially what Riersen pointed out in the original post I responded to, and the relevant point I wanted to discuss. Being risk averse and wanting the Bulls to "go for it" with "it" being championship level talent are two positions which aren't very compatible right now.

If you ask the fans whether they want high risk moves, you will probably get different answers from different fans, but if you ask them what their talent aim is, I doubt that you are going to get too many who say that they are aiming for 1.5 rounds of playoffs. What I am trying to point out here is that, given the Bulls' current situation, being risk averse is the rough equivalent of aiming for 1.5 rounds of playoffs.

Personally, I have no affinity to high risk or low risk. It's all about the aim. It's a matter of which path maximizes your chance of reaching your aim. If the Bulls were already drowning in good contracts ready to pounce on a championship, then I will want to deal exclusively in assets with firmly established value, too, because that would minmize their chances of dropping below championship level talent, and that is the aim.


This is getting more at the heart of it. I think very much along the same ideas of total talent I talked about.

I think the people unhappy with our current actions believe not only is our talent equivalent of something like 1.5 rounds of playoffs as you say (2 would be fair too) but that the moves we have made, with understanding of our hesitancy to go deep in lux tax, present very little direction to aim much higher.

To aim much higher you either need to spend a lot, spend like the top teams, or you need to rebalance the money you are allowed to spend, so you get more for your money's worth. I think all would agree that Boozer is not worth his money and that's an easy one, that probably can only be handled by amnesty. But I think its safe to say the 'high risk' crowd also believes that even despite Boozer what we are getting for our lux tax knocking price is no longer good enough.

So even more tough choices need to be made. Whether about Deng, about Gibson, or about Noah. And that if total talent isn't high enough, then simply trading established talent for talent, isn't going to get your far. But trading established talent for potential future talent, means going younger. And going younger means to start as soon as possible, so that the future talent matures as quickly as possible, while Derrick Rose is still going to be a superstar in his prime. In other words, why not start now.

Now that Asik and Korver are gone, the longshot wishful thinking about this season is deflated, and people really aren't interested in lasting an extra 2 games in the 2nd round, if we could instead begin to start to solve bigger problems that are still going to be there after this season.

I think the same type of choices need to be made, whether now or at the end of the upcoming season. Disagreement might largely just be about when to start making those choices. Some think why not wait a year, and others see little reason to wait. But there is also that suspicious concern that waiting means just not making those choices at all. In other words, the team got a little worse, and we'll just stay a little worse going forward, while perhaps shifting even talent around here or there, and maintaining the same reduced total talent.

How do you get back talent that went to Houston or Atlanta if you are now paying the same amount without it as you paid when you had it a year ago - and you aren't allowed to get it back by just spending more. Risk is the only way.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#197 » by kyrv » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:47 pm

Bruteque wrote:
kyrv wrote:If that's true about the FO, then they are a great fit for the fan base, which is incredibly risk averse. I don't understand why fans say they want high risks, history shows they don't. I have one of the highest risk tolerances here oddly enough.

Also it's not that easy to just 'get better', or every team would be really good. The Bulls have been, by the way, really good.


That's essentially what Riersen pointed out in the original post I responded to, and the relevant point I wanted to discuss. Being risk averse and wanting the Bulls to "go for it" with "it" being championship level talent are two positions which aren't very compatible right now.

If you ask the fans whether they want high risk moves, you will probably get different answers from different fans, but if you ask them what their talent aim is, I doubt that you are going to get too many who say that they are aiming for 1.5 rounds of playoffs. What I am trying to point out here is that, given the Bulls' current situation, being risk averse is the rough equivalent of aiming for 1.5 rounds of playoffs.

Personally, I have no affinity to high risk or low risk. It's all about the aim. It's a matter of which path maximizes your chance of reaching your aim. If the Bulls were already drowning in good contracts ready to pounce on a championship, then I will want to deal exclusively in assets with firmly established value, too, because that would minmize their chances of dropping below championship level talent, and that is the aim.


Part of what makes discussing this hard (if not impossible) is that so many people pretend they want high risks, even though their history shows they rip any and every move that doesn't work. In other words, they want results, so while they pretend they want high risk/high reward they really want low risk/low reward. There is no patience or tolerance for moves that don't work.

Again somewhat ironically, I liked the Wallace/Johnson/Tyrus acquisitions while they've been panned by the alleged 'high risk' crowd'.

But on the two paths, I don't really agree there are two paths, I think this is a fallacy. It's very hard to get as good as the Bulls have been, which is a contender. An elite team is the end goal. They achieved that, yet some people aren't happy. But I do believe the Bulls would love to add another stud, and are going about that in the highest pct. way, but there's implication there are moves to do so that they are declining to do, without of course people actually mentioning the moves.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#198 » by DuckIII » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:53 pm

Dieselbound&Down wrote:
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You're posting from your car? :eek1:


Stoplights.


I've been to your hometown. 2 posts pretty much covers all the lights in town you would hit.


We have three. They put one out by the SuperWal-Mart. Oh, and the high school got one too. So there's actually four.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#199 » by DuckIII » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:57 pm

dougthonus wrote:There's no flexibility to be gained by waiving guys whom you could have kept on expiring deals or swapped out for draft choices and a contract back to save a team money.


Second round picks, yes. First round picks? For those guys? I'd need some support for that theory, particularly now that we see how the league valued them.

As for expirings, aren't Marco, Vlad and Nazr all expiring? And Hinrich expiring before 2014? Seems largely a wash in that department.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#200 » by BuffaloBull » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:16 pm

DuckIII wrote:
dougthonus wrote:There's no flexibility to be gained by waiving guys whom you could have kept on expiring deals or swapped out for draft choices and a contract back to save a team money.


Second round picks, yes. First round picks? For those guys? I'd need some support for that theory, particularly now that we see how the league valued them.

As for expirings, aren't Marco, Vlad and Nazr all expiring? And Hinrich expiring before 2014? Seems largely a wash in that department.


I will say the one thing that's gained is roster certainty for the next two years. And that's something you might have struggled to have while still maintaining flexibility for 2014.

Like if the Bulls had kept Korver, Watson, and Brewer. Next year, these guys would all be up for contracts. So do you try to bring them back for a year (which is what would be needed to keep 2014 as streamlined as possible) or risk seeing them go to teams offering more years? Because if they leave, then you are in even a tighter spot next summer than you are now. We were willing to give Kirk two years. Next summer, likely, they'd only want to give one.

Turning over the role players this summer, rather than next, locks in a lot more certainty. Kirk will be there. Jimmy, one way or another, is going to end up being more of a known quantity then he would have been with Brewer ahead of him for minutes. And Bellinelli is also on a team, not player option.

So this is a year for integration, with the hopes that Thibs can coach guys up enough to be outside, but real, contenders in 2014. And then hopefully being able to get that true #2, either by trade or by flexibility.

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