Does Cousins Get The Max?

Levity · Post #61 » by **Levity** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:00 am

Cousins with keith smart is not the same cousins as with westphal. He was less temper mental, had a better shot selection, "tried" to cut down on fouls, and was very team oriented. In fact, he's been training in the gym with smart during the off season. Next season, after a whole training camp under smart, we'll most likely see cousins potential for what its really worth. Max worthy or not.

JoseRizal · Post #62 » by **JoseRizal** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:04 am

Based on upside, potential, youth and being close to 7 ft... yes.

702Celtics · Post #63 » by **702Celtics** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:06 am

jeff1624 wrote:
702Celtics wrote:No doubt about it. He's easily a top 5 center in the league and has elevated his game every year. Hopefully Sacramento can hold onto him, they need to catch a break.

But he isn't...

(no order)
Dwight
Bynum
Gasol
Chandler
Duncan
Gortat
Lopez
Monroe
Hibbert
Noah

I'll give you Howard and Bynum. Everyone after that is a toss up, meaning, I'd still take Cousins over those guys any day. Gortat, Lopez, Monroe and Noah over Cousins? C'mon dude...

Jazzfan12 · Post #64 » by **Jazzfan12** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:16 am

People who think Cousins is better than Marc Gasol right now don't understand basketball and should re-evaluate how they judge players.

jeff1624 · Post #65 » by **jeff1624** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:26 am

diogo_pt wrote:
jeff1624 wrote:
702Celtics wrote:No doubt about it. He's easily a top 5 center in the league and has elevated his game every year. Hopefully Sacramento can hold onto him, they need to catch a break.

But he isn't...

(no order)
Dwight
Bynum
Gasol
Chandler
Duncan
Gortat
Lopez
Monroe
Hibbert
Noah

Cousins >> Gortat
Cousins >>>>> Lopez
Cousins > Monroe
Cousins > Hibbert
Cousins > Noah

Gasol is a PF. Even if you count Duncan as a C and if Chandler is better (debatable), top 5 C

Edit: if you're talking about Marc Gasol, Cousins is a little better than him too

What a convincing argument you make. Love reading those >,>> and >>>>>... You have convinced me!

Cousins is a fantastic rebounder better than most off those players you >>>> in his favor... but what else does he do? Gortat is the MUCH better offensive player and have rebounded pretty much the same throughout their careers. Monroe is just better at everything right now. Hibbert is the better defender and scorer. Lopez score more, while doing it more efficiently and a much lower usage rate... not to mention actually staying on the court instead of fouling everything that moves. Noah is just as good a rebounder, but a much better defender and passer.

Cousins has a career TS% below 50%... BELOW 50%, a lower TS% than Brandon Jennings who's knows as one of the least efficient player in the entire league. He averages a ton of turnovers which is disappointing because hes a center, he fouls more than any other player in the league and has pedestrian ORTG compared to his DRTG.

But yeah... he's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> above any other player just because.....

... legitimately looking for a reason. Oh, yeah! Potential! Give me a break.

Winsome Gerbil · Post #66 » by **Winsome Gerbil** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:40 am

jeff1624 wrote: Gortat is the MUCH better offensive player and have rebounded pretty much the same throughout their careers. Monroe is just better at everything right now. Hibbert is the better defender and scorer. Lopez score more, while doing it more efficiently and a much lower usage rate... not to mention actually staying on the court instead of fouling everything that moves. Noah is just as good a rebounder, but a much better defender and passer.

So much ignorance condensed into such a small paragraph.

Let me guess, rabbit ears at home right? Have seen Cousins play maybe twice when he happened to be passing through town against the home team? One of those times he got in foul trouble and had a bad game? You don't know it but that sort of nonsense has the potential to make you look very silly indeed in perhaps no more than a year's time.

On the other hand if you have actually watched Cousins play with any consistency, and still believe any of that nonsense above except that Hibbert and Noah are better defenders, then you really don't know what you are watching.

P.S. The last time Cousins faced off with Gortat he dropped a cool 41pts 12rebs on him.

jeff1624 · Post #67 » by **jeff1624** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:05 am

Winsome Gerbil wrote:
So much ignorance condensed into such a small paragraph.

Let me guess, rabbit ears at home right? Have seen Cousins play maybe twice when he happened to be passing through town against the home team? One of those times he got in foul trouble and had a bad game? You don't know it but that sort of nonsense has the potential to make you look very silly indeed in perhaps no more than a year's time.

On the other hand if you have actually watched Cousins play with any consistency, and still believe any of that nonsense above except that Hibbert and Noah are better defenders, then you really don't know what you are watching.

P.S. The last time Cousins faced off with Gortat he dropped a cool 41pts 12rebs on him.

So many words.. yet you hardly said anything at all.

Gortat is the MUCH better offensive player, Monroe is just better at everything right now, Hibbert is a better scorer, Lopez score more, while doing it more efficiently

TS% for their careers:

Gortat: .581
Monroe: .569
Lopez: .560
Hibbert: .524
Cousins: .491

ORTG for their Careers:

Gortat: 116
Monroe: 114
Lopez: 110
Hibbert: 104
Cousins: 102

So is Cousins NOT less efficient than those guys?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Lopez stays on the court instead of fouling everything that moves like Cousins

Did he not lead the league in fouls this year by a fairly LARGE portion?

Yup... he led the league in fouls with 257. 35 more than the next guy who happened to average 2 more minutes per game than Cousins.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Noah is just as good a rebounder, Gortat and Cousins have rebounded pretty much the same throughout their careers, Noah is just as good a rebounder

Rebounding percentage for their careers:

Cousins: 18.4
Gortat: 18.2
Noah: 18.1

Like I said, comparable rebounders...

---------------------------------------------------------------------

So exactly what did I say that wasn't true?

And who the hell cares what a player does in head2head matchups. Lopez eats Bynum and Chandler up in head2head games, yet EVERYONE agrees that they're better players. But since It's cousins we're talking about this somehow became a legitimate argument?

Try again.

Post #68 » by **jr lucosa** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:09 am

I think the only way he doesn't get the max is if he gets seriously injured or kills someone. Even if he shows no improvement next year and plays at the same level as this past year I think he'll get it. If the Kings don't offer it someone else will.

FireRicBucher · Post #69 » by **FireRicBucher** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:10 am

Derailing

OneWhoKnocks · Post #70 » by **OneWhoKnocks** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:17 am

I think this season as long as he has better FG% (or the almighty TS% for stat nerds in here) he can the surpass Bynum and become #2 center. His game is perfect in today's league. His mobility and speed for his position can be mismatch hell for most of the slower centers today in the league.

witnessraps · Post #71 » by **witnessraps** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:20 am

Anthony Davis>Cousins

and yes

Josephpaul · Post #72 » by **Josephpaul** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:35 am

Brooke Lopez got one . Of course.

orangeparka · Post #73 » by **orangeparka** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:06 am

OneWhoKnocks wrote:I think this season as long as he has better FG% (or the almighty TS% for stat nerds in here) he can the surpass Bynum and become #2 center. His game is perfect in today's league. His mobility and speed for his position can be mismatch hell for most of the slower centers today in the league.

How many games did that win the Kings?

Honestly, he puts up great numbers and all but until he becomes efficient and starts contributing more to wins, I wouldn't be so quick to say he's the 2nd best center.

But yeah, he definitely has the potential to get there, especially if he ever learns to finish inside.

paul · Post #74 » by **paul** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:27 am

As long as it's not for my team I sincerely hope so.

Post #75 » by **Wolfay** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:44 am

jeff1624 wrote:
Levity wrote:
Sniff-Roses wrote:What happened to players having to prove their worth?

you must have missed the last two offseasons.

and is 18/11 in your 2nd season on a team with no real play maker/facilitator, not enough to prove you are/have the potential to be a max player in the league?

People get so enamored with the ppg and rpg that they totally disregard efficiency. Cousins is one of, if not the least efficient player in the league. He has an insanely high usage rate for a guy that has yet to crack a TS% higher than .500%. He fouls more than any other player in the league and is extremely turnover prone. Can he improve upon that? sure... but to say he deserves the max because of what he's done so far just doesn't make sense to me.

People also get ridiculously enamored with efficiency that they ignore if the player actually makes the team better or worse. Kevin Martin is good example of someone with great efficiency but actually has little impact on the court.

Fact is that the Kings were a great deal worse without Cousins on the floor last season.

OneWhoKnocks · Post #76 » by **OneWhoKnocks** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:56 am

Wolfay wrote:
jeff1624 wrote:

People get so enamored with the ppg and rpg that they totally disregard efficiency. Cousins is one of, if not the least efficient player in the league. He has an insanely high usage rate for a guy that has yet to crack a TS% higher than .500%. He fouls more than any other player in the league and is extremely turnover prone. Can he improve upon that? sure... but to say he deserves the max because of what he's done so far just doesn't make sense to me.

People also get ridiculously enamored with efficiency that they ignore if the player actually makes the team better or worse. Kevin Martin is good example of someone with great efficiency but actually has little impact on the court.

Fact is that the Kings were a great deal worse without Cousins on the floor last season.

Preach. People value TS% as a certified measuring stick of offensive ability. Just Terrible. Shame no one likes to put these stats in context and actually watch the games.

Zedders · Post #77 » by **Zedders** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:29 am

I think I've just read someone say that Marcin Gortat is a better offensive player than Cousins. Hahahaha

Cousins can not be compared to a big man who can't create a shot on his own. The only reason his efficiency is bad is because the entire offense of the Kings revolves on him being isolated and CREATING for others. He's the best playmaker and passer on his team and has to earn every shot he takes, that's why is efficiency is low. He doesn't get easy shots off his team mates, he gets it in the high/low post and goes to work.

Anyone that compares him to guys like Noah and Gortat either never watches him play, or knows nothing about basketball. If the Kings had a semi competent back court that wasn't filled with chuckers, Cousins would shoot over 50% from the field, easily.

He's the most skilled center to come out of the draft since Yao Ming. He's not a better overall player than Howard, because Dwight is a defensive beast, but he can definitely develop into a Duncan type of anchor and unlike Dwight, he can be a 1st option on offense and a go to scorer at the end of games.

Dude's potential is off the charts. Max player? Definitely.

jeff1624 · Post #78 » by **jeff1624** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:39 am

Derailing

Zedders · Post #79 » by **Zedders** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:52 am

jeff1624 wrote:
Greg Oden? And that wasn't even the outrageous part of your post... it was the fact that you predicted that he'd have the same effect as the best power forward of all time.

Oden was nowhere near this polished offensively. He was a physical player but a defensive prospect more than anything else.

And I didn't predict anything, you have reading comprehension issues, I talked about his potential defensively if he could develop in that area, as he has similar physical tools.

Groove · Post #80 » by **Groove** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:56 am

FireRicBucher wrote:
Groove wrote:Definately, imo he has the potential to become better than Dwight

Dwight relies on his atlethicism and he has no offensive game. Cousins can drill the mid range jumper, has a sweet postgame, is a decent defender, great rebounder, his passing ability is really great, is a lot faster than Dwight, can actually drible, he has touch, not brick hands like Dwight.. Dwight just jumps high. If Cousins becomes a bit more effective and taps into his potential he is no doubt better than Dwight. Dwight is seriously overrated imo. Dwight doesn't even have a postgame after training with Hakeem and after his back injury he might barely touch the rim now..