#3 Highest Peak of All Time (Russell '65 wins)

[Doctor MJ]

Shaquille O'Neal has been enshrined on our list and is no longer eligible for consideration in other years. Have at it.

[therealbig3]

Vote: 65 Russell

I was going to vote Wilt, but these posts convinced me:

I'm also a bit disappointed Russell hasn't gotten more consideration, especially with Wilt getting early votes.

What's the argument for '67 Wilt over '65 Russell, for example?

Something to consider... The '67 Sixers were +6.7 offensively and +1.0 defensively compared to league average. Let's pretend Wilt's teammates were league average quality (they weren't) and attribute those numbers entirely to Wilt's impact ... still doesn't come close to the Celtics being +10.6 defensively in '64 or +10.1 defensively in '65 almost entirely due to Russell's defensive impact.

Have to agree with ThaRegul8r's point... Unfortunately, I think Russell is at risk of falling lower than he should in this project simply because there is less agreement about what his best season is compared to other players.

Russell's impact was quantifiable, as ElGee and the other stats folks in the RPoY project pointed out. The 1965 Celtics were the #1 defense in the NBA by more than 10 points per 100 possessions, and almost EIGHT points ahead of second place. That is domination by one unit on n order that is video game-like, and that defensive impact is clearly centered on Russell.

^

And ElGee made some great points about how earlier Celtics teams and the 67 Sixers were about the same level, while the Celtics clearly had an inferior supporting cast.

I'm not really sure if 65 is Russell's peak, because he has so many years at pretty much the same level, but it seems that 65 is when most people consider Russell at his best, so I'll tag along.

[ardee]

Vote: 1967 Wilt Chamberlain

Still. I really hope he gets voted in now because I want to start making fresh arguments

My reasons were clearly outlined in threads 1 and 2.

[bastillon]

I made a big post but it got lost... so just to summarize my thoughts on Chamberlain:

*Sixers were extremely stacked. Jackson, Walker, Cunningham were all star caliber players. Greer was all-NBA caliber player. Wali Jones was probably the best defensive guard in the league. with Wilt they were 8.5 SRS in 67. you can argue Wilt had the best supporting cast of all-time if you're accounting for avg talent in the league.

*Sixers 69 were 4.8 SRS team without Wilt or Jackson. with Jackson, who could help big time with their lack of size and shotblocking inside, Sixers could've easily been a 5.5-6.0 SRS team. as stacked as it gets.

*historically speaking, when teams played without their top player and still managed to play at ~5 SRS, usually when those top players were back, they lifted their teams to similar or greater levels than Wilt 67 did. here are some example from ElGee's list:

Lanier 1981 (13g) 2 to 7.6
Magic 1986 (10g) 2.7 to 8.1
McHale 1986 (13g) 2.6 to 9.9
Price 1989 2.4 to 7.8
KJ 1993 (33g) 3.7 to 8.2
Rodman 1996 (18g) 3.0 to 12.9
Rodman 1997 (27g) 2.8 to 11.7
Pippen 1998 (38g) 3.1 to 8.6
Shaq 1998 (28g) 3.5 to 8.7
Stockton 1998 (18g) 3.4 to 7.3
Kobe 2000 (16g) 4.4 to 9.4
Webber 2002 (28g) 2.6 to 8.5
Garnett 2008 (11g) 1.7 to 10.5
Garnett 2009 (25g) 5.3 to 9.1
Gasol LAL 2008 (55g) 6.4 to 11.6

and there were numerous players who lifted teams that were a lot WORSE than ~4-6 SRS to much better levels of play. just to mention Nash 05-08, Walton 77-78, Dirk 10-11, Jordan 92-93, LeBron 09-12 etc.

if you're not looking at Wilt's monstrous boxscore numbers and focus on impact, I just don't see how what he did was so much more special than what other all-timers did. when top notch players were put in similar situations they excelled just as much and lifted their teams similarly. unlike Wilt though, many of them had similar impact under spectrum of different team-situations and managed to stay impactful. Wilt sometimes failed to make major impact (63, 65, 69-71). despite the fact that he often played on incredibly stacked teams.

furthermore, we know for a fact Sixers were all-time great offensive team in 67 that was pretty average defensively and then transformed into defensive stallworth year later that happened to be unspectacular offensively. that always struck me as pretty weird and that shows their true potential. Sixers team was so stacked talent-wise that they could've been both extremely dominant offense & defense at the same time... but they never were. and it's hard for me to pick a player who didn't maximise his team's potential. Sixers 67 had no business being avg defensively with Luke Jackson & Wali Jones being widely regarded as top defenders at their positions. Wilt didn't play up to his potential defensively that year and for that reason there are other, better candidates for this #3.

I'm voting for Russell. his impact is much more evident and a lot greater. -8 pts better than 2nd best defense ? UNREAL. nobody ever came REMOTELY close. Wilt has this based on boxscore numbers but Russell made a lot bigger impact. there is no way anybody could've duplicated what Russell did to his opponents in 65.

[JordansBulls]

Between these 4 for me with Russell also in the mix.

--------- RS PER, WS48, --------- PER, WS48 playoffs
KAJ 1971: 29.0, 0.33, -----------25.0, 0.27 (14 playoff games, title)
Wilt 1967: 26.5, 0.285------------25.3, 0.25 (15 playoff games, title)
Hakeem 1994: 25.3, 0.210----------27.7, 0.208 (23 playoff games, title)
Russell 1965: 19.5, 0.234------------20.9, 0.286 (12 playoff games, title)

Vote: Kareem 1971 (Not to mention put a team that never won anything and gave them a title) and was elite on both ends of the floor and had the best stats in the league by far.

[C-izMe]

Vote: Russell 65

Just a filler vote. Easier to edit when its on the first page.

[colts18]

This is a long post, but I think there is a good argument that LeBron had the best season of all-time in 2009.

He led the team in pts, reb, ast, blk, and stl. He led a mediocre team to 66 wins. From 08-10, the Cavs were 1-13 in games LeBron missed (+12.5 difference). LeBron had a ridiculous +21.83 in plus/minus which led the NBA. He was +13 on offense and -8 on defense. The Cavs were +14.9 with LeBron on the court which is better than what the 96 Bulls did (+13.4). When LeBron was off the court, they were -7 which is on the level of last year's Cavs and Nets. On offense, the Cavs were 115.1 O rating with LeBron on the court which is around what the 96 Bulls and 10 Suns did. When LeBron was off the court, they were 101 O rating which would have been the worst in the NBA that season (Clippers were the worst at 102.3). They went from historical offense with LeBron to worst offense in league without. On defense, the Cavs were 100.2 with LeBron and 108.31 without. The 100.2 is -8.1 from the league average. That -8.1 is so good that it is better than the 04 Pistons (-7.5). So they went from all-time defense with LeBron on the court, to League average without. The Cavs 8.68 SRS was tied for 7th best ever in the 3 point era ahead of teams like the 87 Lakers, 91 Bulls, 07 Spurs, and 00 Lakers.

Next up, I'll talk about LeBron's clutch season. Arguably one of the clutchest ever. Per 48 minutes he averaged 56-14-13, .693 TS%. He was 2nd in scoring and 1st in assists during the clutch. The Cavs outscored opponents by 45 points per 48 minutes with LeBron on the court in the clutch .


Now onto the playoffs. In fact the Cavs played almost the exact same in the playoffs as they did in the regular season. They had a 112 O rating and 102 D rating in both the regular season and postseason. Their SRS improved from 8.68 to 11.67 in the playoffs. LeBron averaged 35-9-7, .618 TS%, 8.7 TOV%. His PER and WS/48 are easily the best in playoff history. The crazy part is that not one of LeBron's teammates had a PER better than 15 in the playoffs which is the league average. LeBron had a 128 O rating and 100 D rating. MJ never beat 128 O rating or 100 D rating in any of his playoff seasons

In the first two rounds, LeBron averaged 33-9-7, .644 TS%, 38.0% usage% and an insane 6.0 TOV%. That TOV% is so insane that if he did that in the regular season, it would be #2 overall in the league, just 0.1% behind the leader (Dequan Cook). That led to him having a 139 O rating and 90 D rating. To put that into perspective, the all-time #1 O rating is 92 Horace Grant at 132, LeBron would have smashed that. That 90 D rating would have led the league in 2009 ahead of the #1 guy (Howard) who had a 94.6 D rating. This might have been the best two round stretch in NBA history. The Cavs won their games by 16.75 PPG with the closest game being a 10 point win. The Cavs had a 115.95 O rating (similar to 92 Bulls) and a 95.48 D rating (04 Pistons).

Against Orlando, LeBron averaged 39-8-8, .591 TS% against the team with the #1 ranked defense in the league. More amazing, LeBron only had a 11.3 TOV% (38.3 USG%) in that series. Some blame the loss on LeBron being ball dominant but the Cavs had a 112.60 O rating in the series against a team that had a 101.9 D rating in the regular season. That makes the offense +10.70. That is on the level of the 80's Lakers and 00s Suns. For some reason, LeBron gets hate on for his defense in this series but the guys he was guarding (Turkoglu and Alston) didn't do much. Turk averaged 17.2 PPG on 39.0 FG% and Alston 12.5 PPG on 37 FG%. LeBron's sidekicks failed him though. Mo Williams did average 18.3 PPG but on 37 FG%. LeBron only had 3 teammates average 10+ PPG and those teammates did it on .505 TS%. This series was completely on his teammates failing offensively and not being able to guard Lewis and Howard.

The difference between 09 LeBron's WS/48 and 91 MJ's playoff WS/48 is bigger than the difference between 91 MJ and 97 Steve Smith.


Of course I have to mention LeBron's elite defense too. As mentioned above, LeBron shut down Turkoglu and Alston in the Orlando series. In the 1st round, Tayshaun Prince averaged 3.8 PPG and a .278 TS% despite playing 32 MPG. LeBron completely shut him down. In the next round, Joe Johnson averaged 15 PPG on .452 TS%. In the regular season, Carmelo averaged 15.5 PPG on .525 TS% vs. Cleveland. Pierce averaged 20.3 PPG on .490 TS%. Durant averaged 19.5 PPG on .528 TS%. Rudy Gay averaged 11.5 PPG on .350 TS%. Caron Butler who averaged 20.8 PPG on .552 TS% in the regular season dropped down to 15 PPG on .458 TS% vs. Cleveland.

He led the Cavs that season in steals and blocks that season. LeBron was 3rd in the league in D rating and 2nd in the league in Defensive win shares (behind Howard). With LeBron on the court, the defense had a 100.2 D rating which was -8.1 relative to league average. By comparison that is better than the 04 Pistons (-7.5) and 99 Spurs. The Cavs were 8.12 points/100 better with LeBron on the court on defense than without. That was the 2nd best total in the league behind Joel Przybilla. 82games had opponents had a PER vs. LeBron at 10.4 (which is the level of Fredette, Joel Anthony, and Johan petro). According to 82games, his opposing SF had 12.8 pts/36 on .525 TS% and PF had 13.3 pts/36 on .484 TS% when LeBron played PF. He had a +2.8 Defensive RAPM which was 2nd among qualifying perimeter players behind Ron Artest.

[bastillon]

Between these 4 for me with Russell also in the mix.

--------- RS PER, WS48, --------- PER, WS48 playoffs
KAJ 1971: 29.0, 0.33, -----------25.0, 0.27 (14 playoff games, title)
Wilt 1967: 26.5, 0.285------------25.3, 0.25 (15 playoff games, title)
Hakeem 1994: 25.3, 0.210----------27.7, 0.208 (23 playoff games, title)
Russell 1965: 19.5, 0.234------------20.9, 0.286 (12 playoff games, title)

Vote: Kareem 1971 (Not to mention put a team that never won anything and gave them a title) and was elite on both ends of the floor and had the best stats in the league by far.

defensive win shares are underrating non-boxscore defensive impact. that's why Russell's impact didn't seem all that big. if you looked at Russell's individual DWS (9.9 in '69) you wouldn't think replacing him with avg center changes things a lot for the Celtics. here's a list of starting centers in 1969 by individual DWS:

Russell 9.9
Unseld 7.0
Thurmond 6.1
Hayes 6.0
Wilt 5.3
Reed 5.1
Boerwinkle 4.3
Imhoff 3.4
Beaty 2.6
Rule 1.9
Embry 1.8
Bellamy 0.9
Fox 0.7
Dierking 0.5

now if we were to replace Russell with avg center (Boerwinkle/Imhoff at around 4.0 DWS), Celtics team DWS should get worse by about 5 DWS. they replaced him with Hans Finkel (2.6 DWS in '70) so they should've gotten worse by ~6.5 DWS.

to really understand what his defense meant to his team, you gotta look at Celtics defensive stats with/without Russell and see how that affected defensive win shares of his teammates. IIRC Celtics 69 had around 42 DWS, all-time great mark, on par with Celtics 08/Spurs 04/Knicks 93. year later, without Russell's presence, Celtics became average defensively, posting around 23 DWS.

so in reality, Celtics defense got worse by ~20 DWS which means that Russell's defense relative to his replacement was worth 20 wins more. we're talking about 35-year old Russell, playing on his last legs, who didn't even play up to his full potential in the RS, who could still turn it up a notch in the playoffs. not '64, peak Russell, who led his team to truly unbelievable (seriously, IT IS HARD TO BELIEVE) ~58 DWS.

so let's now put in perspective what peak Russell was doing defensively with his 50+ team DWS seasons. when you're looking at the best offenses/defenses of all-time they post ~40 team OWS/DWS respectively. we're talking about Sixers 67, Bucks 71, Lakers 87, Bulls 92, Mavs 04, Suns 05 offense and Celtics 73, Knicks 93, Spurs 99-04, Pistons 04, Celtics 08 defenses. the very best. creme de la creme. what they were doing, those very best teams in history in their respective categories, looks PALE in comparison with the sheer dominance that Celtics demonstrated at Russell's best. as I said already, Celtics topped with 58 DWS at Russell's defensive peak so their dominance over the very best was as large as those all-time teams vs league avg teams. not sure if what I said is understandable so I'll try to be more clear: there was an equal gap between mid 60s Celtics defense and those very best offenses/defenses vs the gap between those very best offenses/defenses and the league avg.

Russell's defensive impact wasn't even touched. EVER. Russell should've posted at least 40 DWS in 65 if that was of any use.

[ardee]

Between these 4 for me with Russell also in the mix.

--------- RS PER, WS48, --------- PER, WS48 playoffs
KAJ 1971: 29.0, 0.33, -----------25.0, 0.27 (14 playoff games, title)
Wilt 1967: 26.5, 0.285------------25.3, 0.25 (15 playoff games, title)
Hakeem 1994: 25.3, 0.210----------27.7, 0.208 (23 playoff games, title)
Russell 1965: 19.5, 0.234------------20.9, 0.286 (12 playoff games, title)

Vote: Kareem 1971 (Not to mention put a team that never won anything and gave them a title) and was elite on both ends of the floor and had the best stats in the league by far.

1971 is very arguably not Kareem's own best year. I would say that goes to 1977.

Kareem's game logs for the playoffs:

Pts / Reb / Ast / Blks (FGM/FGA)

vs. Warriors:

Game 1: 27/16/7/3 (10/? FG)
Game 2: 40/19/3/9 (18/32 FG)
Game 3: 28/14/7/4 (12/20)
Game 4: 41/18/3/0 (15/?)
Game 5: 45/18/3/3 (16/28)
Game 6: 43/20/3/3 (17/25) Highlights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTMEtNM44n8
Game 7: 36/26/4/1 (14/26) Highlights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mloG22I2YtU

Series average: 37.6 ppg, 18.7 rpg, 4.3 apg, 3.3 bpg, 60.7 FG%.

vs. Blazers:

Game 1: 30/10/5/0 (11/19 FG)
Game 2: 40/17/1/3 (17/23 FG) Full game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2oTCUmEFiM
Game 3: 21/20/8/8 (5/12 FG) - foul trouble
Game 4: 30/17/2/4 (12/20) Full game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCTQzI9uf5g

Walton vs. Kareem head to head stats in the playoff series:

KAJ - 30.3 ppg, 16 rpg, 3.8 apg, 3.8 bpg, 60.8 FG%
Walton - 19.3 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 2.3 bpg, 51 FG%.

Game 2 and Game 4 from the '77 series are availiable on footage. It's quite clear who the better player was. The difference in the series was the Laker backcourt getting absolutely destroyed. I'm not exaggerating when I say this, but watching them is actually comical because they could not be trusted to even bring the ball up. In game 2, at the end of the third quarter, they turned it over three consecutive possessions before even making it to the half court line (iirc, Kareem went to get rest with Lakers up 8-10 pts, came back and when he came back Lakers were actually trailing). I really wish they kept turnover stats that year. Lucius Allen was also injured during the series. Kermit Washington also didn't play for the Lakers. I voted for Walton in '78, but simply can't put him over Kareem this year. This was Kareem's absolute peak for me. His offensive/scoring skills were above those he had earlier in his Bucks days, he was stronger and had added an unstoppable turnaround jumper that year.

That Laker team was just awful.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1977.html

In the Playoffs, not ONE of his team-mates had a PER of over 14. He was doing just about everything for them. His impact was very clear and visible, as the above post says, when he was off the court the Lakers just fell apart.

To take that team to the league's best record is absurd. What's easier: going 66-16 with Oscar Robertson and Bobby Dandridge, or to go 53-29 with Cazzie Russell or Lucius Allen?

Whoever is talking about LeBron's 09 year, this is another case of the exact same syndrome. A superstar taking a bunch of absolute scrubs to the league's best record, putting up one of the all time GOAT postseason runs, and finally losing in the Conference Finals because he got absolutely no help. However, at the same time, Kareem outplayed Walton (the league's second best player that year) to a degree almost comparable to Chamberlain outplaying Russell.

He was a much better defender that year, was more of a team player, and had a greater offensive arsenal.

For Kareem, I'm pretty sure '77 was his peak year. I'd want to hear arguments for 1980 though, that was an insane year as well.

[bastillon]

LeBron never guarded Turkoglu in that series, Delonte West did. also Turkoglu did a lot more damage than those numbers show because he was their prime facilitator and his goal was to attract defensive attention and initiate the ballmovement after Cavs set defense collapsed.

LeBron guarded Alston and failed miserably. all his series he was slow in the pick and rolls and Cavs paid the price in games 3-4. when Alston exploded for those 26 pts or whatever, it was mainly LeBron's fault. when Alston had poor shooting outings it was mainly because he sucks as a player. he was missing open kickout 3s. when LeBron didn't guard Alston, he guarded Pietrus. I remember there was a layup that Pietrus made becase LeBron didn't even guard him. wide open layup with no one around him. it kind of symbolized LeBron's defense throughout that series.

it was Brown's idea to put LeBron on the worst opposing player to help on Dwight defensively. but he didn't really do that either. Dwight had one of the best offensive series in his career and he never seemed bothered by LeBron's help D (there wasn't much help either).

Orlando had like 115 ORTG in the Cavs series. how does LeBron's "elite defense" look now ? I mean if he was their supposed defensive anchor and they collapsed altogether vs mediocre offensive squad, shouldn't he get most of the blame for that ? I never considered 09 LeBron defensive anchor so I didn't really blame Cavs defensive collapse on him, but going by your logic, it only seems like a rational conclusion. LeBron's terrible defense in that series is something that always gets overlooked. and either LeBron fans wanna admit it or not, defense was the reason why Cavs lost the series. not Mo Williams chucking or LeBron "locking up" (sic!) or not Alston. Cavs lost because their defense got demolished by a barrage of Dwight dunks and 3s.

LeBron had a great offensive series (39-8-8 doesn't really tell the story, team ORTG is accurate measure of his impact though) but his defense was absolutely horrendous. also I'm not sure what to make of Cavs getting upset by clearly inferior team. we can talk about LeBron's supporting cast being poor, but what about Dwight's ? Alston-Courtney Lee as starting backcourt ? Lewis pretending to be a PF ? Turkoglu as key 4th quarter closer and main playmaker ? Dwight's cast sucked just as bad, if not worse. at the time I thought Dwight outplayed LeBron during that series. he dominated on both ends of the floor. Cavs were supposed to run over Orlando. this is the same team that barely escaped KG-less Celtics in ECSFs being down 2-3. the same team that was torched 1-4 in the finals. Cavs SRS is pointless to use here because they didn't play up to their potential when it mattered. as far as I'm concerned Cavs were inferior to 6.5 SRS team and that's their real strength.

tremendous individual season, probably the best RS ever. not really into that though. RS doesn't matter much in NBA system. championships are won in the playoffs. LeBron had great playoffs, but his defense was the reason why his performance was far from flawless. he was supposed to be their key defensive player (still Varejao was their best defender by far at the time), he was the one who should've helped with guarding Dwight. not only did he fail to make his imprint on the game with his help defense, but he didn't even recover well to his man causing Alston to be the difference maker in key games 3-4 (or was it 4-5 ?). great player, great season, just not GOAT.

LeBron 12 is clearly a better player than LeBron 09, despite the numbers. he should be the one getting mentioned. LeBron got exposed in both '10 ECSFs and '11 finals by his opponents. his much developed defense and post games are the reasons why he won a championship this year. he improved in those areas immensely, while doing everything else just as well. 09 LeBron would NOT win a title this year with the skillset he had. he wouldn't have the same type of impact on any other team. he was still a great player, just had some really bad habits. his post game and off-ball game were clear flaws that would get exposed more on another team. I'd like a player who made the same type of impact with various teammates. for the last couple of years LeBron has been showing his ability to improve in those areas, but his impact never matched his 09 peak because he never got a chance to play with guys made for his style of play.

LeBron's inability to make GOAT level impact with different teammates is surely a thing of concern at this level. you wouldn't worry about that with Russell, KG, Hakeem, Dirk, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Walton etc.

[bastillon]

the case for Kareem 77 would have to be made based on his postseason though. in the RS Walton was a lot more dominant when he was on the court. Portland was insanely dominant with Walton in the lineup. I think they were playing with 70-win pace.

also:
Kareem 1975 (17g) 7.7 to 1.7
Kareem 1978 (20g) 5.8 to 4.2
Walton 1978 (24g) 13.3 to 10.0
Walton 1977 (17g) 12.6 to 8.4

Kareem vs Walton should be a legitimate debate, but not yet. Russell is clearly better than both.

[colts18]

LeBron never guarded Turkoglu in that series, Delonte West did. also Turkoglu did a lot more damage than those numbers show because he was their prime facilitator and his goal was to attract defensive attention and initiate the ballmovement after Cavs set defense collapsed.

LeBron guarded Alston and failed miserably. all his series he was slow in the pick and rolls and Cavs paid the price in games 3-4. when Alston exploded for those 26 pts or whatever, it was mainly LeBron's fault. when Alston had poor shooting outings it was mainly because he sucks as a player. he was missing open kickout 3s. when LeBron didn't guard Alston, he guarded Pietrus. I remember there was a layup that Pietrus made becase LeBron didn't even guard him. wide open layup with no one around him. it kind of symbolized LeBron's defense throughout that series.

wow at the double standard. You blame LeBron for the bad games, but the good games he doesn't get credit for? Game 1, Alston had 11 points on 4-10 shooting. Game 2, he was 2 points on 1-7 shooting. Game 5 he was 3 points on 1-10 shooting. In game 6 he was 13 points on 5-16 shooting. That's pretty good. Plus LeBron did guard Turkoglu on occasion based on the highlights I saw.

I'm going to break down the OT period in Game 4 that showed it was the big men defense, not LeBron that failed. In this period, the Cavs went small so LeBron guarded Lewis and Varejao/Z/Wallace guarded Howard. I'm going to focus solely on defense.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwWAE7XZF3w&feature=fvwrel[/youtube]

Possession 1 (0:55 in the video): Lewis touches it once, but passes it out. Varejao pokes the ball and LeBron steals it from Turkoglu.

Possession 2 (1:55): Howard gets the ball around 8 feet from the basket. LeBron was about 30 feet from the basket when Howard receives the ball. West goes to help but backs out. LeBron goes down, but its too late because Howard manhandles Varejao and dunks on him. No touches for Lewis.

Possession 3 (2:47): Gibson/Varejao have a complete miscommunication of the PnR and Howard gets an easy dunk. Lewis gets no touches.

Possession 4 (3:30): Howard gets it in the post, and blows by Varejao even before help can come. Howard gets another easy dunk. Lewis gets no touches.

Possession 5 (5:00): Varejao gets a looseball foul and fouls out so Big Z comes in. Lewis touches it and tries to drive but LeBron cuts it off so Lewis passes it. In 5:05 of the video, Doug Collins says that the Cavs will miss Varejao's PnR defense now that Z is in the game. Collins with the great foreshadowing. Pietrus goes around the Howard screen, Mo Williams goes under leaving Pietrus a wide open 3. Z doesn't help at all. Complete miscommunication.

Possession 6 (6:20): Alston misses an open 3 and leBron gets the rebound. Lewis gets no touches.

Possession 7 (6:39): The Magic get it in transition and so that leaves Z on Lewis. Lewis drives but kicks it out to the corner. If you pause it at 6:41, you can see that LeBron is on the opposite side of the FT line when Lewis starts to pass to Pietrus (who is wide open for 3). LeBron's quickness allows him to close out so fast that LeBron is in his face when he catches the ball. Very few players have that kind of recognition skill and the quickness to close out on that. Pietrus passes it out to Turkoglu. Turkolgu drives past Gibson and Z helps, the layup misses and LeBron has no chance because Howard is in great position for the easy tip in.

Possession 8 (8:00): Turkoglu goes to the basket. LeBron gives some help but doesn't fully commit. Turkoglu misses the close range shot. Lewis gets no touches.

Possesion 9 (9:23): Wallace comes in for defense. Howard gets it in the post. LeBron is on the weakside guarding Lewis. Wallace gets help from his guards, but he fouls Howard. Lewis gets no touches. The Cavs start intentionally fouling after this.


So in 9 possesions, LeBron's man only touches it 3 times. All 3 times his man quickly passes it out. 1 time his man tried to drive to the basket but LeBron cuts him off. LeBron gets a steal and defensive rebound in this period. His man has 0 shot attempts. As you can clearly see, Cleveland's big men were completely outmatched by Howard. They had no shot. The help defense didn't work because Howard had great positioning that he was too close to the basket.

[JordansBulls]

This is a long post, but I think there is a good argument that LeBron had the best season of all-time in 2009.

He led the team in pts, reb, ast, blk, and stl. He led a mediocre team to 66 wins. From 08-10, the Cavs were 1-13 in games LeBron missed (+12.5 difference). LeBron had a ridiculous +21.83 in plus/minus which led the NBA. He was +13 on offense and -8 on defense. The Cavs were +14.9 with LeBron on the court which is better than what the 96 Bulls did (+13.4). When LeBron was off the court, they were -7 which is on the level of last year's Cavs and Nets. On offense, the Cavs were 115.1 O rating with LeBron on the court which is around what the 96 Bulls and 10 Suns did. When LeBron was off the court, they were 101 O rating which would have been the worst in the NBA that season (Clippers were the worst at 102.3). They went from historical offense with LeBron to worst offense in league without. On defense, the Cavs were 100.2 with LeBron and 108.31 without. The 100.2 is -8.1 from the league average. That -8.1 is so good that it is better than the 04 Pistons (-7.5). So they went from all-time defense with LeBron on the court, to League average without. The Cavs 8.68 SRS was tied for 7th best ever in the 3 point era ahead of teams like the 87 Lakers, 91 Bulls, 07 Spurs, and 00 Lakers.

Next up, I'll talk about LeBron's clutch season. Arguably one of the clutchest ever. Per 48 minutes he averaged 56-14-13, .693 TS%. He was 2nd in scoring and 1st in assists during the clutch. The Cavs outscored opponents by 45 points per 48 minutes with LeBron on the court in the clutch .


Now onto the playoffs. In fact the Cavs played almost the exact same in the playoffs as they did in the regular season. They had a 112 O rating and 102 D rating in both the regular season and postseason. Their SRS improved from 8.68 to 11.67 in the playoffs. LeBron averaged 35-9-7, .618 TS%, 8.7 TOV%. His PER and WS/48 are easily the best in playoff history. The crazy part is that not one of LeBron's teammates had a PER better than 15 in the playoffs which is the league average. LeBron had a 128 O rating and 100 D rating. MJ never beat 128 O rating or 100 D rating in any of his playoff seasons

In the first two rounds, LeBron averaged 33-9-7, .644 TS%, 38.0% usage% and an insane 6.0 TOV%. That TOV% is so insane that if he did that in the regular season, it would be #2 overall in the league, just 0.1% behind the leader (Dequan Cook). That led to him having a 139 O rating and 90 D rating. To put that into perspective, the all-time #1 O rating is 92 Horace Grant at 132, LeBron would have smashed that. That 90 D rating would have led the league in 2009 ahead of the #1 guy (Howard) who had a 94.6 D rating. This might have been the best two round stretch in NBA history. The Cavs won their games by 16.75 PPG with the closest game being a 10 point win. The Cavs had a 115.95 O rating (similar to 92 Bulls) and a 95.48 D rating (04 Pistons).

Against Orlando, LeBron averaged 39-8-8, .591 TS% against the team with the #1 ranked defense in the league. More amazing, LeBron only had a 11.3 TOV% (38.3 USG%) in that series. Some blame the loss on LeBron being ball dominant but the Cavs had a 112.60 O rating in the series against a team that had a 101.9 D rating in the regular season. That makes the offense +10.70. That is on the level of the 80's Lakers and 00s Suns. For some reason, LeBron gets hate on for his defense in this series but the guys he was guarding (Turkoglu and Alston) didn't do much. Turk averaged 17.2 PPG on 39.0 FG% and Alston 12.5 PPG on 37 FG%. LeBron's sidekicks failed him though. Mo Williams did average 18.3 PPG but on 37 FG%. LeBron only had 3 teammates average 10+ PPG and those teammates did it on .505 TS%. This series was completely on his teammates failing offensively and not being able to guard Lewis and Howard.

The difference between 09 LeBron's WS/48 and 91 MJ's playoff WS/48 is bigger than the difference between 91 MJ and 97 Steve Smith.


Of course I have to mention LeBron's elite defense too. As mentioned above, LeBron shut down Turkoglu and Alston in the Orlando series. In the 1st round, Tayshaun Prince averaged 3.8 PPG and a .278 TS% despite playing 32 MPG. LeBron completely shut him down. In the next round, Joe Johnson averaged 15 PPG on .452 TS%. In the regular season, Carmelo averaged 15.5 PPG on .525 TS% vs. Cleveland. Pierce averaged 20.3 PPG on .490 TS%. Durant averaged 19.5 PPG on .528 TS%. Rudy Gay averaged 11.5 PPG on .350 TS%. Caron Butler who averaged 20.8 PPG on .552 TS% in the regular season dropped down to 15 PPG on .458 TS% vs. Cleveland.

He led the Cavs that season in steals and blocks that season. LeBron was 3rd in the league in D rating and 2nd in the league in Defensive win shares (behind Howard). With LeBron on the court, the defense had a 100.2 D rating which was -8.1 relative to league average. By comparison that is better than the 04 Pistons (-7.5) and 99 Spurs. The Cavs were 8.12 points/100 better with LeBron on the court on defense than without. That was the 2nd best total in the league behind Joel Przybilla. 82games had opponents had a PER vs. LeBron at 10.4 (which is the level of Fredette, Joel Anthony, and Johan petro). According to 82games, his opposing SF had 12.8 pts/36 on .525 TS% and PF had 13.3 pts/36 on .484 TS% when LeBron played PF. He had a +2.8 Defensive RAPM which was 2nd among qualifying perimeter players behind Ron Artest.

You can argue this if they won the title but losing to Orlando a team who was missing it's starting PG and had the wrost Backcourt all time make the finals is a no no.

Orlando made the finals with the worst backcourt of all time. How the hell do you make the finals with Rafer Alston and Courtney Lee (a rookie) as your starting backcourt?

People talk about Lebron's cast, but then fail to mention the cast Dwight had in 2009. Rafer and Lee was his starting backcourt. When they went to New Jersey that team won 12 games. Rashard Lewis was his PF and now on the Wizards with a franchise player in Wall that team has won like 13 games now. And then Hedo was on the Raptors and Suns and had absolutely no impact.
When you put it together Dwight's lineup was Rafer, Lee, Hedo, Lewis

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=26749

Josh (Los Angeles, CA): The Cavs didn?t match up well with Orlando, now all of a sudden Big Z (PER 18.03), Mo (17.25) and Delonte (14.16) aren't a good supporting cast and Rashard (16.83), Hedo (14.82), and Pietrus (11.69) are studs?


Chad Ford: It's the style of play. The way the Magic spread the floor was a challenge for guys like Ben Wallace and Z to guard. When Varejao got in foul trouble, they struggled to keep up.

Source: ESPN

Cleveland Cavaliers (32 votes)

This thing is Cleveland's to lose, says our panel -- or 60.4 percent of our panel, anyway.

It's no surprise to see so many votes for a team that has the reigning MVP and won 66 games last season. On the other hand, the Cavs had the same points in their favor in May, and were the heavy favorites to win the East at that time, too. But Orlando took care of Cleveland thanks to some amazing shooting and the dominance of Dwight Howard, and the Cavs were left licking their wounds.



For those saying the Cavs aren't suppose to win, then answer this?

Source: ESPN

1. Cleveland (+9.12)
Welcome to the Cleveland Invitational, ladies and gentlemen. Yes, the Pistons had given up and the Hawks had injuries, but the fact is the Cavs have won eight straight playoff games by double figures. In this case it's a continuation of the Cavs' strong finish to the season, and it doesn't appear either Boston or Orlando has the goods to make them sweat much in a conference finals.

Cleveland also has home-court advantage going for it in the final two rounds, so at this point the Cavs have to be considered a heavy favorite to win the championship. They're playing the best basketball, have the best draw, have home-court and have the best player. They still have to play the games, of course, but the skids have already been greased. While the likes of Denver or L.A. could give them a tough fight in the Finals, at this point it appears that the only team that can beat Cleveland is Cleveland.

Looks like the Cavs were heavy favorites.


So they played a team that gave up in the Pistons and one who was injured in Atlanta and now it is being said that neither Boston or Orlando will make them sweat. So who the hell is supposed to win it all if it isn't Cleveland?


Dirk gets critisizm for losing with a team that won over 65+ games and didn't win the title does he not?







http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers



Source: Yahoosports

1. Cleveland Cavaliers, 2008-09

I sort of like this also-ran, because it speaks to how we've grown as a sport-regarding culture over the years. These Cleveland Cavaliers ran up 66-wins, an almost-Bulls-like 8.9-point differential (way better than any team listed above), and had the greatest player in the game (LeBron James(notes)) at their disposal. And yet, when the team lost to the Orlando Magic in the Eastern Conference finals last spring, people seemed ready to smartly admit that the Cavs, for all their horses, just didn't have the horses to run with the Magic.

Nobody was labeled a choker, nobody was fired, and though the team traded for one big (hopeful) problem-solver in the offseason in Shaquille O'Neal, nobody seemed to overreact and make deals for the sake of making deals. Knowing that the team will have the best player in the game, at only age 24, around for at least the next season helps too; but you have to love the lack of hand-wringing. Still, the meek ending doesn't hide the fact that this was an otherwise dominant team that won 74 of its first 90 games before falling to the Magic in six.

Not even One analyst said the Magic would win.

In fact it was so bad that in games 3 and 4 in Orlando that the Cavs were a 2 point favorite on the road.

The Cavs had the best record all year, they had the highest point differential in winning, they had the highest SRS rating.

In the playoffs they won the first 2 rounds by 10+ points in every game and even in the playoffs the Cavs had a 8.5 pts per game differential which was the highest in the postseason that year.

The Cavs were cruising while the Magic were getting outplayed and down in the series to the Sixers initially and the Celtics without KG and then you expect me to believe that Orlando was the better team all along? I just don't buy that all and really it is just an excuse because the Cavs lost. Also lets not forget the Cavs were up each game at home of the 3 games by more than 20+ points each time.


1) Cavs had a 20 point lead in each of it's home games. There is no way in hell you get up by 20+ points in each home game in the conference finals without being a good team.

2) There is no reason why Lebron should have defended Rafer for most of the games at home. Rafer does not play well on the road period and most of the time doesn't play well. Another reason why this wasn't good it left Mo Williams and Delonte West to defend Lee and Hedo guys who were simply bigger than they were and thus they could shoot right over Mo Williams and Delonte West.

3) Lebron passed off on the last possession with the team down 1 point. When you are the star and your team is down and you are not up in the series, you take the shot.

4) Lebron held the ball too long on possessions. I know he did nearly everything, but it would have been quite different with a set offense then just passing the rock and expecting guys to hit shots with 4 seconds left on the shot clock when they hadn't touched the ball the entire possession.

5) Lebron simply needed to score 50+ in that game 1. He was hot, he needed to make sure the Cavs got that game.




http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290520005 - Mentions 15 at the half, but it was 20 at one point.

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290522005 - Down by 23 in the second quarter the Magic were within 12 at halftime.


http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290528005 - The Magic overcame a 22-point deficit but missed their first opportunity to close out the Cavaliers


How is it even possible to be up 15+ points in every home game in the Conference Finals with a bad team?


Now had the Cavs lost to the Celtics with KG around or the Lakers those would be legit losses but losing to a team that was out in the previous season in round 1 and when you had HCA and the hands down favorite while they were missing there PG in Nelson as well doesn't bode well here.


All in all had the Lakers lost that game 7 to Portland in 2000, Shaq's 2000 season and Lebron's 2009 season would have been seen in the same light.

[bastillon]

there's no double standard. regardless of whether Alston had good shooting nights or not, LeBron played poor defense. the ones where he shot well didn't really differ from the other, he just sucks as a player (which I said already) and that kinda players sometimes can't make shots even if they're good ones. besides, why the f*** does it even matter whether LeBron locked up Rafer freakin Alston ? don't you see how pathetic of a rationale that is ? hell, Nash locked up Bruce Bowen time and time again and yet nobody gives him any credit. and rightfully so, Nash doesn't deserve any credit for guarding a spot up shooter, so shouldn't LeBron. what he did vs Alston was irrelevant. but his defensive mistakes were costly. you don't get any credit if spot up shooter doesn't make shots, but when he makes them because you're not there, it's your fault. it's not double standard, it's the same when you're guarding Kwame Brown - if he goes for 20-10, you deserve a lot of criticism, but even when Kwame goes for his usual 10/6 on miserable efficiency it's nothing to be proud of.

more importantly, your analysis shows how focused you are on whether LeBron's man does something. this is a team game. Lewis was a stretch four, what else was he supposed to do when Magic were getting good looks ? man defense is of very little importance in today's basketball, what matters is the ability to cover large area of the court at once, to sort of guard multiple players at the same time. LeBron's job was not to stand in the corner so that Lewis wouldn't get a shot because Magic couldn't care less who got the shot in the first place. Magic's gameplan was outright obvious - to give the ball to Dwight and move on from there. LeBron's task was to help defending Dwight, the task that he failed to accomplish miserably. so no offense, but I don't think you're the right person to analyse defensive highlights when you don't even know the importance of help defense.

I'm not sure how anybody could defend LeBron's defense in this series. Cavs got totally lit up by mediocre offensive team, Dwight put up like 27 ppg 17 rpg on 65% TS (off the top of my head), LeBron's defensive task was to play help defense and hence being assigned to the worst opposing player. not only his help defense was nowhere near where it was supposed to be, but his defense vs Alston in games 3-4 was a big reason why they lost the series. Cavs could've played with Kapono on defense and the result would be the same.

[GrangerDanger]

If Lebron 09 is being brought up, why not Dr .J in 76, Kareem in 77 or even Tmac in 03? All 3 faced better competition, in more competitive eras, with rules that did not favor them. Imagine if the Magic in 03 got HCA with a record FT differential per game. do really think they wouldn't win the East? Or if Dr. J in 76 was allowed to take 4 steps every time he drove or get a FT every time someone looked at him Too early for Lebron imo. His game is very era/officiating dependant, as we've seen when he played in the handcheck era and under FIBA rules. 49 Mikan and 57 Cousy have more of a case at this stage honestly

[Josephpaul]

Kareem 71

[colts18]

there's no double standard. regardless of whether Alston had good shooting nights or not, LeBron played poor defense. the ones where he shot well didn't really differ from the other, he just sucks as a player (which I said already) and that kinda players sometimes can't make shots even if they're good ones. besides, why the f*** does it even matter whether LeBron locked up Rafer freakin Alston ? don't you see how pathetic of a rationale that is ? hell, Nash locked up Bruce Bowen time and time again and yet nobody gives him any credit. and rightfully so, Nash doesn't deserve any credit for guarding a spot up shooter, so shouldn't LeBron. what he did vs Alston was irrelevant. but his defensive mistakes were costly. you don't get any credit if spot up shooter doesn't make shots, but when he makes them because you're not there, it's your fault. it's not double standard, it's the same when you're guarding Kwame Brown - if he goes for 20-10, you deserve a lot of criticism, but even when Kwame goes for his usual 10/6 on miserable efficiency it's nothing to be proud of.

Then blame the coach then. LeBron was put on Alston, Turk, and Lewis and did his job. He shutdown his man. He can't guard 5 players at once.

more importantly, your analysis shows how focused you are on whether LeBron's man does something. this is a team game. Lewis was a stretch four, what else was he supposed to do when Magic were getting good looks ? man defense is of very little importance in today's basketball, what matters is the ability to cover large area of the court at once, to sort of guard multiple players at the same time. LeBron's job was not to stand in the corner so that Lewis wouldn't get a shot because Magic couldn't care less who got the shot in the first place. Magic's gameplan was outright obvious - to give the ball to Dwight and move on from there. LeBron's task was to help defending Dwight, the task that he failed to accomplish miserably. so no offense, but I don't think you're the right person to analyse defensive highlights when you don't even know the importance of help defense.

I'm not sure how anybody could defend LeBron's defense in this series. Cavs got totally lit up by mediocre offensive team, Dwight put up like 27 ppg 17 rpg on 65% TS (off the top of my head), LeBron's defensive task was to play help defense and hence being assigned to the worst opposing player. not only his help defense was nowhere near where it was supposed to be, but his defense vs Alston in games 3-4 was a big reason why they lost the series. Cavs could've played with Kapono on defense and the result would be the same.

You are showing your bias. Show me the plays where LeBron was supposed to help and didn't? His task was to guard lewis who is a 40 3P% shooter. You can't leave a guy like that open when that shot is probably 50% when open. Again I'll breakdown those videos to see where LeBron failed on the help.

Play 1: LeBron gets a steal

Play 2: When the ball is passed to Howard, LeBron is 30 feet from the basket. LeBron does go down to help, but by the time LeBron gets there Howard is like 3 feet from the basket. You can try to blame LeBron for that, but if he fully committed, Lewis is completely wide open. Even then there is no guarantee because Varejao got abused.

Play 3: Breakdown on the PnR. West does help but backs off and Howard gets the dunk. Not LeBron's responsibility.

Play 4: Varejao gets too aggressive that the help defense doesn't have time to come down.

Play 5: Big Z or Mo doesn't do their job in the PnR. Nothing LeBron can do.

Play 6: Magic miss open 3. LeBron can't help in that situation.

Play 7: LeBron does help and closes out on the open 3. Then Howard gets the open tip in which LeBron can't do anything about because Howard is in perfect position.

Play 8: LeBron does help on Turkoglu who misses the shot

Play 9: That's not LeBron's job to help in that situation from the weakside. Wallace does get help but still fouls Howard.


Only 1 of those plays are ones where you can argue LeBron is supposed to help and even then his help wouldn't have done much.

[C-izMe]

If we're being serious here (and I'm a major supporter of 09 Lebron and I think he deserves some consideration but not now) Lebron played bad defense in that series.

[MisterWestside]

to really understand what his defense meant to his team, you gotta look at Celtics defensive stats with/without Russell and see how that affected defensive win shares of his teammates.

Agreed that Russell is underrated by box metrics. But no; simply looking at with/without and saying "He's worth 20 wins on defense!" isn't cutting it either. Him leaving the Celtics isn't the one and only thing that changed for the team.

As one of the staunchest LeBron supporters here, I don't look at the Cavs without LeBron and says "Wow, LeBron was worth 41 wins; just look at the Cavs without him in 2010! GOAT!"

[ThaRegul8r]

If Lebron 09 is being brought up, why not Dr .J in 76

I was actually going to comment that I have J's '76 over LeBron's '09. Erving also led his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks 33 years before LeBron accomplished the feat. His team was the underdog against Denver in the ABA Finals, against whom they were 5-9 during the season and 7-15 against over the last two years. He scored 45 including the game-winner in Game 1 to get his team the split in Denver, a place they'd lost the last 11 times they played there, and averaged 37.7 points, 14.2 rebounds, 6 assists, 3 steals and 2.17 blocked shots in "the greatest individual performance by a basketball player at any level anywhere," against Bobby Jones, one of the greatest defensive forwards in the history of the game, eight-time NBA First Team All-Defense and one-time Second Team All-Defense.

"Without him," says Joe Mullaney, who coached the Spirits of St. Louis this season and who once coached the Los Angeles Lakers, "the Nets would be a mediocre team."

Which was shown when the Nets sans-Erving finished with the worst record in the NBA.

"It was a tremendous letdown," Loughery said about the sale of Erving. "We had a lot of role players to go around Doc, and now we were left with just the role players."

Doesn't have to be taken as a knock on LeBron, but that's just how great Erving was that year. But it will be dismissed due to era bias, and watch the inevitable attempts by LeBron advocates who want to elevate LeBron's 2009 to denigrate what Erving did in order to make LeBron look better, in what is all too typical when a "modern" season or player is compared to a past one.