#3 Highest Peak of All Time (Russell '65 wins)

[MisterWestside]

Cavs had a 20 point lead in each of it's home games. There is no way in hell you get up by 20+ points in each home game in the conference finals without being a good team.

You do know basketball is a high variance game right? Tunisia was down just 10+ points to Team USA yesterday after halftime; that means Tunisia was obviously on Team USA's level!

Lebron passed off on the last possession with the team down 1 point. When you are the star and your team is down and you are not up in the series, you take the shot.

That's a rule? Since when?

Lebron simply needed to score 50+ in that game 1. He was hot, he needed to make sure the Cavs got that game.

MJ simply needed to score 68 points in that game 2 against the '86 Celtics. He was hot, he needed to make sure the Bulls got that game.

Lebron held the ball too long on possessions. I know he did nearly everything, but it would have been quite different with a set offense then just passing the rock and expecting guys to hit shots with 4 seconds left on the shot clock when they hadn't touched the ball the entire possession.

Shooters are supposed to make those looks. What, they need an eternity to make an open jumper? John Paxson shot the ball with 5 seconds left in Game 6 of the Finals; that damn MJ held on to the ball too long!

[ElGee]

I'm really looking at Larry Bird here, although still leaning Russell.

First, a quick note about interpreting team-based numbers. I'm using them a lot in this project because I'm really trying to anchor to an actual number; I'm trying to actually gauge impact in a tangible way so we can compare across eras. So we can speak a common language (It's really "wins" but point differential better so we use that)...it's a challenging task, but it really forces you to think about players on the same scale which I find instructional.

A team's RS SRS, while a great measurement, is not a perfect measurement of a team's strength. Nor is it's PS SRS (or combined). There are varying degrees of strength based on matchups, the versatility of a team, injuries and breaks in schedules that aren't measured, etc. As an example, I view the 67 76ers not as an "8.5" team but closer to a "10" team. Thus, when I deconstruct the team, I'm working from that starting point on the SRS scale. (Then I need to consider if they played in a weaker league, how the PS matchups worked for/against them, etc.)

More importantly, ORtg/DRtg splits have a decent degree of error (usually within about 2 points in each direction) from what we are "trying" to say because offense and defense aren't unrelated...namely transition strategy that is reflected in OREB%/DREB% splits. (I've actually attempted an ORTg correction based on OREB%.) Of course, turning it over less on offense often helps defense. And my favorite, when teams "cheat" and play offensively-oriented lineups at the expense of the defense. These are all things we need to consider when judging these numbers in the context of super-duper star players impacting them.

[lorak]

"Without him," says Joe Mullaney, who coached the Spirits of St. Louis this season and who once coached the Los Angeles Lakers, "the Nets would be a mediocre team."

Which was shown when the Nets sans-Erving finished with the worst record in the NBA.

1976/77 Nets lost not only Dr J, but also other important players from '76 team: John Williamson was traded during '77 season, Rich Jones ended career after 34 games and Brian Taylor (underrated but very good player, 2nd on that Nets team in minutes played during 1976 playoffs run) was traded before '77 season.

And BTW, Bobby Jones reputation as great defender is well know, but anyone have any data to support such stance?

[ardee]

"Without him," says Joe Mullaney, who coached the Spirits of St. Louis this season and who once coached the Los Angeles Lakers, "the Nets would be a mediocre team."

Which was shown when the Nets sans-Erving finished with the worst record in the NBA.

1976/77 Nets lost not only Dr J, but also other important players from '76 team: John Williamson was traded during '77 season, Rich Jones ended career after 34 games and Brian Taylor (underrated but very good player, 2nd on that Nets team in minutes played during 1976 playoffs run) was traded before '77 season.

And BTW, Bobby Jones reputation as great defender is well know, but anyone have any data to support such stance?

I'm guessing he guarded Skywalker in the '76 ABA Finals.... Who averaged 28 ppg on 63% TS.

[ardee]

I'm really looking at Larry Bird here, although still leaning Russell.

First, a quick note about interpreting team-based numbers. I'm using them a lot in this project because I'm really trying to anchor to an actual number; I'm trying to actually gauge impact in a tangible way so we can compare across eras. So we can speak a common language (It's really "wins" but point differential better so we use that)...it's a challenging task, but it really forces you to think about players on the same scale which I find instructional.

A team's RS SRS, while a great measurement, is not a perfect measurement of a team's strength. Nor is it's PS SRS (or combined). There are varying degrees of strength based on matchups, the versatility of a team, injuries and breaks in schedules that aren't measured, etc. As an example, I view the 67 76ers not as an "8.5" team but closer to a "10" team. Thus, when I deconstruct the team, I'm working from that starting point on the SRS scale. (Then I need to consider if they played in a weaker league, how the PS matchups worked for/against them, etc.)

More importantly, ORtg/DRtg splits have a decent degree of error (usually within about 2 points in each direction) from what we are "trying" to say because offense and defense aren't unrelated...namely transition strategy that is reflected in OREB%/DREB% splits. (I've actually attempted an ORTg correction based on OREB%.) Of course, turning it over less on offense often helps defense. And my favorite, when teams "cheat" and play offensively-oriented lineups at the expense of the defense. These are all things we need to consider when judging these numbers in the context of super-duper star players impacting them.

Why do you rank Bird over Magic?

[colts18]

Interesting stat:

Fouls drawn in 6 game series:
Wade 06 vs. Mavs: 63
LeBron 09 vs. Magic: 64

LeBron 10 vs. Celtics: 50 (drew 9 in game 5 despite quitting), Kobe had 49 in 7 games vs. Celtics
LeBron 11 vs. Mavs: 24
LeBron 12 vs. Thunder: 36 (5 games)

So LeBron actually drew more fouls than what Wade did which is amazing considering how much hate the refs get for that series.

[GetItDone]

09 LeBron

Really not even close IMO.

30/9/7 top PER

[bastillon]

Interesting stat:

Fouls drawn in 6 game series:
Wade 06 vs. Mavs: 63
LeBron 09 vs. Magic: 64

So LeBron actually drew more fouls than what Wade which is amazing considering how much hate the refs get for that series.

amazing ? huh ? since when is drawing phantom fouls considered amazing ?

[colts18]

Interesting stat:

Fouls drawn in 6 game series:
Wade 06 vs. Mavs: 63
LeBron 09 vs. Magic: 64

So LeBron actually drew more fouls than what Wade which is amazing considering how much hate the refs get for that series.

amazing ? huh ? since when is drawing phantom fouls considered amazing ?

Considering that drawing fouls is a big part of the game, yes its amazing. Drawing fouls creates easy opportunities. Its a huge part of offense. if he didn't draw fouls you would blame him for that.

[Jordan23Forever]

I'm not sure I'm allowed a vote (not sure if only those who opted in earlier are voters), but if we're considering non-championshjp seasons based on level of play and dominance, I think 1990 Jordan has to be considered. Here's his case:

- Averaged 33.6 pts/6.9 reb/6.3 ast/2.8 stl/.7 blk/3.0 TO/52.6% FG/56.0% eFG/60.6% TS/38% 3FG/85% FT/31.2 PER during the regular season.

- Averaged 36.7 pts/7.2 reb/6.8 ast/3 stl/1 blk/51.4% FG/53.3% eFG/59.2% TS/31.7 PER in the postseason - yes, that's basically a 37/7/7 average. This included two GOAT level series and a fantastic series against an all-time level defensive team:

36.8 pts/8.0 reb/7.0 ast/2.5 stl/1.0 blk/54% FG vs. Milwaukee in the first round against two great defenders in Pressey and Robertson.

43.0 pts/6.6 reb/7.4 ast/4.0 stl/1.2 blk/55% FG, which included 3 straight games of 45/49/45 points, the middle of which featured a Jordan 26-point 4th quarter barrage to rally Chicago back from a deficit to within 3 points with a minute left.

32.1 pts/7.1 reb/6.3 ast/2.1 stl/.6 blk/47% FG against the Pistons and their vaunted "Jordan Rules" defense, and two all-time level defenders in Dumars and Rodman (DPOY that year). Jordan almost singlehandedly pushed Detroit to 7 games with far less talent and experience around him, and his numbers would have been even better - and the Bulls might have even won the series - had his teammates not wet the bed that series. Pippen averaged 16.6 pts/6.2 reb/3.8 ast/42% FG that series, which culminated in an ABYSMAL game 7 which saw him shoot 1-10 FG for 2 points and Grant shoot 3-17 FG for 10 points. The Bulls outside of Jordan shot 24% in game 7, with MJ putting up 32 pts/8 reb/9 ast on 13-27 FG (should have been 12+ assists if you watch the game - his teammates blew numerous easy dunks/layups inside off nice passes due to being shook. Never has a player's supporting cast played so far below their usual level in a deciding game than this. All things told, this was a fantastic series from MJ considering the circumstances.

In addition, his defensive impact was off the charts this season and especially during the postseason. For instance in his 49 point playoff outburst vs. Philly, look at how many defensive plays he makes in one game alone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frYsLt0R0R8. And this video doesn't show them all, either (there are a few other deflections etc. when you watch the full game). 1990 was one of Jordan's two peak defensive seasons imo (1991 being the other).

When you combine all this with the fact that by this season he was doing a LOT of damage off the ball and on quick catch and strikes (especially in the postseason), and the fact that he was far less ball dominant compared to previous years, which allowed his teammates to be more involved, I don't think anyone has ever been MORE dominant than 1990 Jordan. A couple of others may have been AS dominant, but not more dominant imo.

That said, I'm not sure I would vote for 1990 Jordan above a couple of others considering that he didn't win the championship. I would probably put this at the top of the best non-championship seasons of all time, though.

[ThaRegul8r]

I'm not sure I'm allowed a vote (not sure if only those who opted in earlier are voters), but if we're considering non-championshjp seasons based on level of play and dominance, I think 1990 Jordan has to be considered. Here's his case:

- Averaged 33.6 pts/6.9 reb/6.3 ast/2.8 stl/.7 blk/3.0 TO/52.6% FG/56.0% eFG/60.6% TS/38% 3FG/85% FT/31.2 PER during the regular season.

- Averaged 36.7 pts/7.2 reb/6.8 ast/3 stl/1 blk/51.4% FG/53.3% eFG/59.2% TS/31.7 PER in the postseason - yes, that's basically a 37/7/7 average. This included two GOAT level series and a fantastic series against an all-time level defensive team:

36.8 pts/8.0 reb/7.0 ast/2.5 stl/1.0 blk/54% FG vs. Milwaukee in the first round against two great defenders in Pressey and Robertson.

43.0 pts/6.6 reb/7.4 ast/4.0 stl/1.2 blk/55% FG, which included 3 straight games of 45/49/45 points, the middle of which featured a Jordan 26-point 4th quarter barrage to rally Chicago back from a deficit to within 3 points with a minute left.

32.1 pts/7.1 reb/6.3 ast/2.1 stl/.6 blk/47% FG against the Pistons and their vaunted "Jordan Rules" defense, and two all-time level defenders in Dumars and Rodman (DPOY that year). Jordan almost singlehandedly pushed Detroit to 7 games with far less talent and experience around him, and his numbers would have been even better - and the Bulls might have even won the series - had his teammates not wet the bed that series. Pippen averaged 16.6 pts/6.2 reb/3.8 ast/42% FG that series, which culminated in an ABYSMAL game 7 which saw him shoot 1-10 FG for 2 points and Grant shoot 3-17 FG for 10 points. The Bulls outside of Jordan shot 24% in game 7, with MJ putting up 32 pts/8 reb/9 ast on 13-27 FG (should have been 12+ assists if you watch the game - his teammates blew numerous easy dunks/layups inside off nice passes due to being shook. Never has a player's supporting cast played so far below their usual level in a deciding game than this. All things told, this was a fantastic series from MJ considering the circumstances.

In addition, his defensive impact was off the charts this season and especially during the postseason. For instance in his 49 point playoff outburst vs. Philly, look at how many defensive plays he makes in one game alone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frYsLt0R0R8. And this video doesn't show them all, either (there are a few other deflections etc. when you watch the full game). 1990 was one of Jordan's two peak defensive seasons imo (1991 being the other).

When you combine all this with the fact that by this season he was doing a LOT of damage off the ball and on quick catch and strikes (especially in the postseason), and the fact that he was far less ball dominant compared to previous years, which allowed his teammates to be more involved, I don't think anyone has ever been MORE dominant than 1990 Jordan. A couple of others may have been AS dominant, but not more dominant imo.

That said, I'm not sure I would vote for 1990 Jordan above a couple of others considering that he didn't win the championship. I would probably put this at the top of the best non-championship seasons of all time, though.

...

Jordan's already in.

At #1.

Yet for some reason it's still necessary to campaign for him.

[drza]

I'll be voting for '65 Russell, for reasons touched upon in the previous two threads.

[ardee]

09 LeBron

Really not even close IMO.

30/9/7 top PER

That was '10 LeBron

[ardee]

I'm not sure I'm allowed a vote (not sure if only those who opted in earlier are voters), but if we're considering non-championshjp seasons based on level of play and dominance, I think 1990 Jordan has to be considered. Here's his case:

- Averaged 33.6 pts/6.9 reb/6.3 ast/2.8 stl/.7 blk/3.0 TO/52.6% FG/56.0% eFG/60.6% TS/38% 3FG/85% FT/31.2 PER during the regular season.

- Averaged 36.7 pts/7.2 reb/6.8 ast/3 stl/1 blk/51.4% FG/53.3% eFG/59.2% TS/31.7 PER in the postseason - yes, that's basically a 37/7/7 average. This included two GOAT level series and a fantastic series against an all-time level defensive team:

36.8 pts/8.0 reb/7.0 ast/2.5 stl/1.0 blk/54% FG vs. Milwaukee in the first round against two great defenders in Pressey and Robertson.

43.0 pts/6.6 reb/7.4 ast/4.0 stl/1.2 blk/55% FG, which included 3 straight games of 45/49/45 points, the middle of which featured a Jordan 26-point 4th quarter barrage to rally Chicago back from a deficit to within 3 points with a minute left.

32.1 pts/7.1 reb/6.3 ast/2.1 stl/.6 blk/47% FG against the Pistons and their vaunted "Jordan Rules" defense, and two all-time level defenders in Dumars and Rodman (DPOY that year). Jordan almost singlehandedly pushed Detroit to 7 games with far less talent and experience around him, and his numbers would have been even better - and the Bulls might have even won the series - had his teammates not wet the bed that series. Pippen averaged 16.6 pts/6.2 reb/3.8 ast/42% FG that series, which culminated in an ABYSMAL game 7 which saw him shoot 1-10 FG for 2 points and Grant shoot 3-17 FG for 10 points. The Bulls outside of Jordan shot 24% in game 7, with MJ putting up 32 pts/8 reb/9 ast on 13-27 FG (should have been 12+ assists if you watch the game - his teammates blew numerous easy dunks/layups inside off nice passes due to being shook. Never has a player's supporting cast played so far below their usual level in a deciding game than this. All things told, this was a fantastic series from MJ considering the circumstances.

In addition, his defensive impact was off the charts this season and especially during the postseason. For instance in his 49 point playoff outburst vs. Philly, look at how many defensive plays he makes in one game alone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frYsLt0R0R8. And this video doesn't show them all, either (there are a few other deflections etc. when you watch the full game). 1990 was one of Jordan's two peak defensive seasons imo (1991 being the other).

When you combine all this with the fact that by this season he was doing a LOT of damage off the ball and on quick catch and strikes (especially in the postseason), and the fact that he was far less ball dominant compared to previous years, which allowed his teammates to be more involved, I don't think anyone has ever been MORE dominant than 1990 Jordan. A couple of others may have been AS dominant, but not more dominant imo.

That said, I'm not sure I would vote for 1990 Jordan above a couple of others considering that he didn't win the championship. I would probably put this at the top of the best non-championship seasons of all time, though.

...

Jordan's already in.

At #1.

Yet for some reason it's still necessary to campaign for him.

Funnily enough, if '67 Wilt had gotten voted in at no. 1, I was picking '90 Jordan for MJ's best season.

[JordansBulls]

I'm not sure I'm allowed a vote (not sure if only those who opted in earlier are voters), but if we're considering non-championshjp seasons based on level of play and dominance, I think 1990 Jordan has to be considered. Here's his case:

- Averaged 33.6 pts/6.9 reb/6.3 ast/2.8 stl/.7 blk/3.0 TO/52.6% FG/56.0% eFG/60.6% TS/38% 3FG/85% FT/31.2 PER during the regular season.

- Averaged 36.7 pts/7.2 reb/6.8 ast/3 stl/1 blk/51.4% FG/53.3% eFG/59.2% TS/31.7 PER in the postseason - yes, that's basically a 37/7/7 average. This included two GOAT level series and a fantastic series against an all-time level defensive team:

36.8 pts/8.0 reb/7.0 ast/2.5 stl/1.0 blk/54% FG vs. Milwaukee in the first round against two great defenders in Pressey and Robertson.

43.0 pts/6.6 reb/7.4 ast/4.0 stl/1.2 blk/55% FG, which included 3 straight games of 45/49/45 points, the middle of which featured a Jordan 26-point 4th quarter barrage to rally Chicago back from a deficit to within 3 points with a minute left.

32.1 pts/7.1 reb/6.3 ast/2.1 stl/.6 blk/47% FG against the Pistons and their vaunted "Jordan Rules" defense, and two all-time level defenders in Dumars and Rodman (DPOY that year). Jordan almost singlehandedly pushed Detroit to 7 games with far less talent and experience around him, and his numbers would have been even better - and the Bulls might have even won the series - had his teammates not wet the bed that series. Pippen averaged 16.6 pts/6.2 reb/3.8 ast/42% FG that series, which culminated in an ABYSMAL game 7 which saw him shoot 1-10 FG for 2 points and Grant shoot 3-17 FG for 10 points. The Bulls outside of Jordan shot 24% in game 7, with MJ putting up 32 pts/8 reb/9 ast on 13-27 FG (should have been 12+ assists if you watch the game - his teammates blew numerous easy dunks/layups inside off nice passes due to being shook. Never has a player's supporting cast played so far below their usual level in a deciding game than this. All things told, this was a fantastic series from MJ considering the circumstances.

In addition, his defensive impact was off the charts this season and especially during the postseason. For instance in his 49 point playoff outburst vs. Philly, look at how many defensive plays he makes in one game alone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frYsLt0R0R8. And this video doesn't show them all, either (there are a few other deflections etc. when you watch the full game). 1990 was one of Jordan's two peak defensive seasons imo (1991 being the other).

When you combine all this with the fact that by this season he was doing a LOT of damage off the ball and on quick catch and strikes (especially in the postseason), and the fact that he was far less ball dominant compared to previous years, which allowed his teammates to be more involved, I don't think anyone has ever been MORE dominant than 1990 Jordan. A couple of others may have been AS dominant, but not more dominant imo.

That said, I'm not sure I would vote for 1990 Jordan above a couple of others considering that he didn't win the championship. I would probably put this at the top of the best non-championship seasons of all time, though.

Jordan is out of it, he can't be voted for again.

[Jordan23Forever]

[
...

Jordan's already in.

At #1.

Yet for some reason it's still necessary to campaign for him.

Is the project limited to one season per player (i.e., their peak season)? If so I wasn't aware of that rule.

Jordan is out of it, he can't be voted for again.

See above. I wasn't aware of the 1 season per player rule.

[JordansBulls]

[
...

Jordan's already in.

At #1.

Yet for some reason it's still necessary to campaign for him.

Is the project limited to one season per player (i.e., their peak season)? If so I wasn't aware of that rule.

Jordan is out of it, he can't be voted for again.

See above. I wasn't aware of the 1 season per player rule.

It's highest Peaks and if 1991 MJ won it out then that eliminates him as he already would have been voted as having the highest peak.

[ElGee]

Now, why am I looking hard at Bird? Let's give him the same broad career strokes to try and narrow in on his peak season.

1980 Celtics
This is Bird's rookie year. I've written in great detail about the changes in the team, here's a quick overview for those unaware.

-Took the grumpy and disgruntled Dave Cowens off the sideline as a PLAYER-COACH and replacing with him Bill Fitch
-Tiny Archibald's health improved and minutes increasing by 1100
-Replaced poor-rep guys like Marvin Barnes and Bob McAdoo with ML Carr or Gerald Henderson on the bench
-Jo Jo White, limping around on his last legs to start 1979, retired
-Went from no semblance of a rotation (3 healthy players all year, 11 players at 800 minutes, multiple starting 5's) to a team that was healthy and congruent all year

White, Billy Knight and even Earl Williams were starters at the beginning of the 79 season when they opened 2-13...They weren't on the 1980 team. They went 21-20 after a disastrous start and then finished 4-17? McAdoo and players like Curtis Rowe started and played big minutes down that stretch...and they weren't on the 1980 team.

So this massive changes from -5 to +7 SRS isn't simply the presence of Bird. There were a lot of changes. As a result, it's hard to say stuff like "Larry Bird as a rookie took a -2.3 offense to +4.2!"

Can't say that. Not close.

What we can work with is that a rookie Bird -- already 23 years old, polished and one of the best players in the world -- was the offensive centerpiece of a +4.2 offense...the 15th-best offense by that metric in league history at that point in time. This was achieved with a re-invented Tiny Archibald at the point, an efficiency inside player (Maxwell) and some decent shooters (Carr, Ford). These are very nice results.

It also might look to some like Dave Cowens was a big name on the team. Well, Cowens missed 16 games.

w/Cowens: +6.9 SRS
w/out Cowens: +9.4 SRS

The Celtics were just fine without Cowens. This is really a team powered by Bird, augmented by Archibald and Maxwell, and filled with nice role players. Those are seriously good results with such a roster.

1982 Celtics

This time Tiny Archibald missed 14 games. Again, look what happens to the Celtics...

w/Archibald: +6.0 SRS (68g)
w/out Archibald: +7.9 SRS (14g)

Of course in 82, Parish deserves a lot of credit. (He finished 4th in MVP.) But Fitch was doing weird things that year, and the Celtics offense dropped down to 2.9 despite looking like they should be a better offensive team. But the general point is the Celtics were always fine when key players were injured.

We see it again later during Bird's peak.

1986 Celtics
w/McHale: 8.9 SRS (65g)
w/out McHale: 9.6 SRS (17g)

Just to be clear, it's not common to see 17 game samples of 9.6 SRS play. The lineup there was

Parish
Bird (slides to PF)
Wedman
Ainge
D. Johnson

Bench: Walton/Sichting

Now, I'm not saying that team would rock a 10 SRS all year (heck they finished at 9 w/McHale who obviously makes them better in the long run). And the 86 Celtics had a 12.7 SRS in the PS. They did beat the Lakers twice by 10.5 ppg in the RS. From Mar 11 to G3 of the Finals they posted a 13.7 SRS and went 30-3. This is a ceiling, in large part, because of the high-level portability of Bird. He's still a solid defender, mostly due to his crafty team defense (more important than individual D) and ridiculously good rebounding, but he just is able to gel with seemingly any kind of player on offense.

In short, I'd make the argument that the 86 Celtics were better than the 67 76ers. (They had 2 bad losses and 40 dominant wins on the year.)

Post-peak:

1988 Celtics
We finally see McHale -- by 88 a clear superstar -- leave a dent with his absence.

McHale Out, Bird In: +3.4 SRS (13g)
McHale In, Bird In: +8.1 SRS (63g)

The no-McHale lineup was
Parish
Bird/Fred Roberts
Bird/Darren Daye
Ainge
D. Johnson

Bench: Marc Acres, some Reggie Lewis (R) -- KC didn't really like his bench.

The defense was worse without McHale -- as we'd expect here -- but the offense was still +6.2. Just further evidence of Bird's offensive impact. And frankly, I think 88 Bird was a clear step down from 86 Bird on the defensive end, which is reflected there.

1991 Celtics
Bird could still play in 1991. He averaged 19-9-8 54% TS in the first 31 games, in which Boston went 27-4. He didn't bang as much around the hoop -- gone were the incredible OREB% numbers and he drew very few fouls -- but the shooting and passing were still there. As was the scoring for himself when needed.

w/out Bird: -0.7 SRS (22g)
w/Bird: 7.4 SRS (60g)

And where is most of the impact coming from? On OFFENSE...and it's a totally different team than the 80 teams or the mid-80s teams. This squad was very balanced, without a true PG, with Reggie Lewis playing catch-and-shoot, McHale posting and Parish hitting in the mid-range.

Offense w Bird: +6.2
Offense w out Bird: +1.6

McHale actually missed 14 games in which Bird played. When McHale played with Bird, the Celtics were

w/Bird and McHale: +9.0 SRS (46g)

The offense jumps to +7.3. In multiple scenarios we are seeing just ridiculous offensive heights from these Bird offenses.

[ElGee]

Why do you rank Bird over Magic?

It's never been clear to me, but I'm definitely leaning toward it in the is project based on:

-Bird's defense is better
-Magic's offensive advantage might not be enough to make up for it

-Even if the offensive advantage makes up for the defense, I think Bird scales better to all kinds of different teams on offense. Magic is a "replace the PG and give him the keys" guy. Bird can seemingly go to any kind of offense and play a multitude of positions and still maintain an enormous impact. That would be my "tie-breaker." Would love to hear some out-of-the-box Magic arguments (ahem Doc MJ).

[PTB Fan]

Nice debate you guys have going on there.

I have to ask a Q about LBJ: which season do you consider as his best: 09 or 12?