84 draft

[moofs]

http://wagesofwins.com/wp-content/uploa ... nba-v2.png

Any better?

And it was Camby.

[Effigy]

http://wagesofwins.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/all-nba-v2.png

Any better?

And it was Camby.

Yes, thankyou. Weird list. Especially the centers. Shaq, Ewing and Yao don't make the list even one time. No Kobe either. Crazy. Going by that list, the all time best NBA team by position is:
PG: Stockton
SG: Jordan
SF: Lebron
PF: Rodman
C: David Robinson

Interesting list. I have to admit that it would be hard to put together a team that could beat them (without using some of the same players) that team does everything really well. A defensive monster, and offensively unstopable.

[LewisnotMiller]

http://wagesofwins.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/all-nba-v2.png

Any better?

And it was Camby.

Yes, thankyou. Weird list. Especially the centers. Shaq, Ewing and Yao don't make the list even one time. No Kobe either. Crazy. Going by that list, the all time best NBA team by position is:
PG: Stockton
SG: Jordan
SF: Lebron
PF: Rodman
C: David Robinson

Interesting list. I have to admit that it would be hard to put together a team that could beat them (without using some of the same players) that team does everything really well. A defensive monster, and offensively unstopable.

Yeah...that would be a tough team. Second team is
PG: Magic
SG: Manu (?!)
SF: Bird
PF: Barkley
C :Artis Gilmore

It starts getting pretty fruity after that. Third team;
PG: Kidd/CP3
SG: Brent Barry
SF: Kirilenko
PF: Ben Wallace
C : Mutombo/Howard

Eeew...I mean, they could block shots, that's for damn sure, but putting then on court against the first OR second team would be a massacre.

So...here's my All-Not-In-The-Other-Three-Teams-Team...or the forgotten men of the NBA, or something...lol

PG: Nash
SG: Drexler
SF: Pippen
PF: Duncan
C : Olajuwon

I'd give that team a shot at beating any of the others.

[moofs]

I guess the catch with those admittedly offbeat (but also underrated) teams is that it only shows when someone was better than everyone else for more than one year, or, in the case of the guys who show up a lot, when someone was dominant for a prolonged period of time. The second best guy for a long period of time will probably just end up bubbling to the top here and there.

However, that third team is actually really good. Who's scoring on Kirilenko/Wallace/Mutombo other than.. um.. nobody, EVER? Then prime Kidd and Barry on top of that, both of whom were really good defenders? Kidd to Howard would be a league pass standard. I think they have enough scoring and rebounding to make up for their near total lack of outstanding offense. CP3/Howard/Barry should be able to carry the team fairly well there.

[LewisnotMiller]

I guess the catch with those admittedly offbeat (but also underrated) teams is that it only shows when someone was better than everyone else for more than one year, or, in the case of the guys who show up a lot, when someone was dominant for a prolonged period of time. The second best guy for a long period of time will probably just end up bubbling to the top here and there.

However, that third team is actually really good. Who's scoring on Kirilenko/Wallace/Mutombo other than.. um.. nobody, EVER? Then prime Kidd and Barry on top of that, both of whom were really good defenders? Kidd to Howard would be a league pass standard. I think they have enough scoring and rebounding to make up for their near total lack of outstanding offense. CP3/Howard/Barry should be able to carry the team fairly well there.

Hmmm...well, to be fair, you don't get to pick qualities from Howard AND Mutombo at centre, and Kidd AND CP3 at point guard. That equates to seven starters, which I agree would make this a pretty good team! Those guys finished 'equal' in terms of that chart of yours, so I put them all down...kinda disqualified them from my leftover team in the process. But, anyways...

Who's scoring on Kirilenko/Wallace/Mutombo? Pippen/Duncan/Olajuwon...I defy Wallace to guard a prime Duncan without help, and shut him down. Slow him down, maybe. Likewise with Olajuwon. Pippen? Well...sure, you could shut him down. Drexler would be a tough matchup for Barry. I admit he was a good defender, but Drexler was a very good offensive player, and I do have a very good offensive point guard pulling the trigger.

At the other end of the floor, I think my frontline is almost as good defensively as yours. Pippen and Olajuwon are SUPERIOR defenders, and Duncan is no disgrace. Drexler is okay, Nash not so much. Point is, who are they guarding? Wallace? Mutombo? Kirilenko? Barry? Wow. It's kinda that old joke about Ben Wallace being the ultimate defender, since he can shut down the offence at both ends of the floor.

That third team would make life hard for ANYONE, but I would back my leftover team to beat them easily, albeit with reduced scoring averages. How many points could the Third Team starters score? 60? Maybe, but then again, I could see that front line struggling to score much at all against 'my' frontline. Better have a good bunch of offensive talent on the bench. How many would the leftover team score, even against an admittedly strong bunch of defenders. Holding Duncan, Olajuwon and Drexler to 15 or less each, with Nash running the show? Not buying it...

[spolgar]

Pardon me, I don't mean to interject, but I concur with Lewisnotmiller here:

PG: Nash
SG: Drexler
SF: Pippen
PF: Duncan
C : Olajuwon

I'd give that team a shot at beating any of the others.

No doubt that would be an exciting team to watch. Duncan and Nash working the pick and roll, Drexler and Olajuwon doing a two man game of some sort, and depending on the coach, using Pippen as a facilitator and have Nash run off picks to get a shot... There are too many weapons. This team will be an absolute steam roller in the open court or in read and react sets in the half court. This would the team I would field if I want to bring the Princeton back to the NBA finals.

That being said, the gamble is Nash's facilitating on offense vis a vis his porousness on defense. Since you've got two really good paint defenders on your five, with the best passing lane defender of all time as a wing man, my guess is that Nash's +/- would remain in the black against most teams.

With a squad like that, only egos could hold it back.

Admittedly, a team with Kirklenko, Wallace, Mutombo, Kidd and Barry would be defensively excellent. However, against LewisnotMiller's squad, every single play will require doubling to even have a chance to get a stop, and each member of that team is as gifted at passing as they are at scoring, so doubling is now a gamble on almost every possession. On a play by play basis, even if Moof's third team makes Miller's team work for every shot, I'm failing to see how that team could not get the shots it wants to for the majority of the time, where as the Moof's third team has only really got scoring options out in transition with Kidd running the break.

[moofs]

Ha! I should proofread my posts more carefully. Wasn't trying to say that the third team would beat your custom, just that they would've been really good I'd think there's no way they end up under 58-63 wins when the 6ers did 56 in 2001 with an inferior team

[spolgar]

I think you are correct there. 60+ wins for a squad like that would be incredible, especially if you can fill out the bench with cheap(er) shooters to space the floor.

[LewisnotMiller]

Ha! I should proofread my posts more carefully. Wasn't trying to say that the third team would beat your custom, just that they would've been really good I'd think there's no way they end up under 58-63 wins when the 6ers did 56 in 2001 with an inferior team

Oh...well...in that case, I agree!
I remember when Pat Riley took over the Knicks. Sure, he made tactical improvements, etc, but one of the key things he did was give them an identity. That whole thug-basketball thing might not have been pretty, but I totally admired the fact that they suddenly had direction and self-belief.

Pretty sure a team with a Mutombo - Wallace - Kirilenko front line would have an identity...lol
They'd be climbing over each other to swat shots into the third tier.

(A little OT, but did anyone see Kirilenko's one handed catch and shoot against Australia at the Olympics yesterday? Matthew Dellevedova had decided to give the foul on the post entry pass, so Kirilenko just catches the ball with his one free hand and guides it up into the hoop for the and one...neat. As an Aussie, I can appreciate that, since we still won the game. Next up? USA. Ouch...)

[nbaintel1]

I really like this chart:

*Looks at chart* Sees Troy Murphy... Leaves.

[spolgar]

Troy Murphy's inclusion is not intuitive. Nor is David Lee's.

2009 Troy Murphy numbers for the season:

Year Team GP GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG
2008–09 Indiana 73 73 34.0 .475 .450 .826 11.8 2.4 .8 .5 14.3

Well shizzy. 14 points and 12 boards a game on 34 minutes are can't-hate numbers especially given his long ball percentage. That's going to jack up offensive efficiency, especially on a bad team.

Now also, if you check out that teams roster, most of the starters, save for Jeff Foster, are also subpar defender. One of the bigger take aways from the WIN48 aggregate is team defense, since personal defense rating is adjusted against team defense ability (taken as a decrement). I'm going out on a limb to guess that team defence at the 2008 roster when they were 36-46 for the year was probably not a priority, so Troy Murphy's atrocious defense is probably hidden as it is compared to the rest of the teams horrible defense. So his WIN48 is not impacted too negatively. Here's also something to take away, WINS48 penalizes a player a bit for the good defense the team plays.

See here: http://www.stumblingonwins.com/Calculat ... duced.html and start at step 3:

NB, the listed reasons probably explains David Lee's numbers in 2007. WIN48 needs improvement as a number since it seems to not take into account of well performing players on bad teams.

[kam_soluusar]

Where's the love for Otis Thorpe? The Spoonman also? Big shot Bob was our PF in the 94 - 95 season.

I gotta admit, I have come in on the arse end of this Convo.

And for what it's worth, it's refreshing to have a fellow Aussie post in here. I'm not flying the flag alone. Even if you are a Celt's fan.

[Mr. E]

Wait, wait, wait....

All this time I thought that the Rockets were the official team of Australia. Now I realize that Kam's actually the official Australian of the Houston Rockets.

Dude - you're an ambassador. Go convert the unwashed masses down under.

[000001]

I really like this chart:

why you like the chart ? makes no sence

[spolgar]

It's a WINS/48 chart. The ranking comes from how the rating of the player is calculated. Here's the methodology:

http://www.stumblingonwins.com/Calculat ... duced.html

It's not a horrible stat, but the numbers need to be seasoned with some sense and sensibility on occasion.

[moofs]

spolgar, the thing that makes me saddest about it is that as my free time has shrunk, I've leaned on it more heavily for quick judgments instead of taking the time to really think things through, do heavy research, and do my own calculations.

This saddens me greatly, as I basically outsourced an entire sector of my judgment basis (mind you, it's not like it's in an important area...) instead of continuing to think completely for myself.

On the other hand, that inevitably happens in areas as you move on, but still... stupid shorthand tricks.

[spolgar]

spolgar, the thing that makes me saddest about it is that as my free time has shrunk, I've leaned on it more heavily for quick judgments instead of taking the time to really think things through, do heavy research, and do my own calculations.

This saddens me greatly, as I basically outsourced an entire sector of my judgment basis (mind you, it's not like it's in an important area...) instead of continuing to think completely for myself.

On the other hand, that inevitably happens in areas as you move on, but still... stupid shorthand tricks.

Hey man, we all got things to do. I'm suppose to learn this web programming thing, I'm 2/3s the way through this Django book (it's a python thing), then I realize that I don't know f-all about javascript or html5...

Your intuition is great btw. You might have went with lower scoring players that weren't necessarily stars that were about to go nova, but they were always all great pieces for a great team. My opinion is that I am at odds with the results on occasion, and my justification for said opinion is that it does not adjust team defense vis a vis personal defense appropriately when personal defense is bad and team defense is atrocious.

[LewisnotMiller]

Where's the love for Otis Thorpe? The Spoonman also? Big shot Bob was our PF in the 94 - 95 season.

I gotta admit, I have come in on the arse end of this Convo.

And for what it's worth, it's refreshing to have a fellow Aussie post in here. I'm not flying the flag alone. Even if you are a Celt's fan.

There were a few Aussies posting on the Bucks board, and some of them have floated over to the Warriors board. Don't really get that myself, though. I hope Aussies over here do well, but if my Celts play the Spurs or something, I'm hoping Rondo TORCHES Patty Mills. Maybe that makes me unpatriotic...lol

Anyways...I included Hakeem and Drexler in my little made-up team, and no Celts. Figured since I was over here visiting, I should be respectful of the locals. Plus they were guns.

PS. Nice to hear someone say they've 'come in on the arse end' of something. Pretty much identified yourself as an Aussie right there...!