Can you intentional foul in the Olympics?

[Kobe8Forever]

You're probably familiar with hack-a-shaq and fouling late in the game for possession.

But how is this different from:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/8-badminton-players-tossed-olympic-125845153--oly.html

Here, a bunch of badminton teams were disqualified from the Olympics for throwing matches. The tournament format was changed to a round robin format, where strategically losing can let you have better matchups (this happens in the NBA all the time by the way). In addition, if your country has two teams in the tournament, e.g. China, you can avoid such team until the later rounds. As such, both teams have a better chance to medal. (I think a tournament setup like this was a terrible idea, btw).

Returning to basketball, when you intentionally foul, you are strategically going outside the spirit and intent of the rules to gain an advantage. What about strategically walking a good hitter in baseball to face a weaker hitter? Same idea, really.

The idea can be summed up as intentionally conceding something less important now for a better chance to win later.

So my question is: can you commit intentional fouls in Olympic basketball or is that grounds for disqualification? Would this comply with the "Olympic spirit?"

[TylerTheDebater]

I'd assume yes, but if it isn't, just make the intentional foul look unintentional. A foul is a foul, after all.

[Kobe8Forever]

I'd assume yes, but if it isn't, just make the intentional foul look unintentional. A foul is a foul, after all.

Suddenly, with 20 left seconds and trailing by 1 possession, my team cannot help but "unintentionally" hit your ballcarrier 3 possessions in the row shortly after the inbound passes.

I mean, you could make that argument, but so could those badminton players. All they technically did was play very poorly.

[TylerTheDebater]

I'd assume yes, but if it isn't, just make the intentional foul look unintentional. A foul is a foul, after all.

Suddenly, with 30 seconds left and down 1, my team cannot help but "unintentionally" hit your ballcarrier 3 possessions in the row shortly after the inbounds pass.

I mean, you could make that argument, but so could those badminton players. All they technically did was play very poorly.

Reach ins, attempting to draw bad charges, yapping at refs for techs. There's a lot of way to get fouls that might seem more like breaking down in the clutch than it would seem like trying to just stop the clock. Maybe they'd catch on, but I honestly would expect a technical foul before getting DQd. The badminton thing was teams playing poorly to change how things would be outside the actual game they were playing (ie, playing bad to get a more favored matchup next round), while intentional fouls are actual to win the game currently being played. I don't think it'd be a problem, but I think there's loopholes around it if it's banned.

[Chalk1]

Intentional fouls are a part of trying to win a game.

Intentionally missing shots, making bad passes, playing bad D would be a part of trying to loss a game on purpose.

If only one team is doing it, it can be done subtly, but in those badminton matches BOTH teams were trying to lose, so they had to be outright obvious about it, and that's how they got caught.

[Knicky7]

i have a question... is what the badminton players did similar to what the 76ers did (tanking for the 8th seed to avoid first round match up with miami)?

[TylerTheDebater]

i have a question... is what the badminton players did similar to what the 76ers did (tanking for the 8th seed to avoid first round match up with miami)?

Basically.

[pimpim]

I know this isn't exactly the point of your question, but you can't intentionally foul at the Olympics, at least not like in the NBA.

A foul with no play on the ball (what players do in the NBA to quickly send someone to the line) is an unsportsmanlike foul under international rules. The fouled player would get two shots and his team would retain possession.

[twinthunder3]

At the rate US team is playing...there's no need for any team to intentionally foul.

[Vader]

i have a question... is what the badminton players did similar to what the 76ers did (tanking for the 8th seed to avoid first round match up with miami)?

Essentially the same.
Both tanked for the bigger win. It is exactly the Olympic spirit, competing for the win.

[Kobe8Forever]

I know this isn't exactly the point of your question, but you can't intentionally foul at the Olympics, at least not like in the NBA.

A foul with no play on the ball (what players do in the NBA to quickly send someone to the line) is an unsportsmanlike foul under international rules. The fouled player would get two shots and his team would retain possession.

Wow that's "harsh." Why not a disqualification from the tournament though? Penalty seems too light.

[TylerTheDebater]

I know this isn't exactly the point of your question, but you can't intentionally foul at the Olympics, at least not like in the NBA.

A foul with no play on the ball (what players do in the NBA to quickly send someone to the line) is an unsportsmanlike foul under international rules. The fouled player would get two shots and his team would retain possession.

What about a reach in foul or a charging call? I know it's different from the NBA (stopped clock versus stopped clock/FT/possession) but would that be considered unsportsmanlike?

[pimpim]

I know this isn't exactly the point of your question, but you can't intentionally foul at the Olympics, at least not like in the NBA.

A foul with no play on the ball (what players do in the NBA to quickly send someone to the line) is an unsportsmanlike foul under international rules. The fouled player would get two shots and his team would retain possession.

What about a reach in foul or a charging call? I know it's different from the NBA (stopped clock versus stopped clock/FT/possession) but would that be considered unsportsmanlike?

If you're reaching in, you're trying to get the ball. This is from the Wikipedia page on Flagrant Fouls:

"FIBA basketball rules have a similar foul called an unsportsmanlike foul, which is roughly equivalent to a flagrant type 1, with the addition that an unsportsmanlike foul can be called if a player fouls with no intention to play the ball, as well as if a player fouls another player on a fast break from behind him. If a player commits a foul warranting immediate ejection from the game, the foul would be called as a disqualifying foul - similar to a flagrant 2. Two unsportsmanlike fouls lead to automatic ejection, similar to the NBA.

The penalty for an unsportsmanlike or disqualifying foul is two free throws and possession at midcourt for the opposing team. If a player is disqualified for two unsportsmanlike fouls, there is no additional penalty for the disqualification: only the second unsportsmanlike foul is punished, just like the NBA."

Basically, you can't just wrap someone up or grab them to stop the clock.

[Kobe8Forever]

Reach ins, attempting to draw bad charges, yapping at refs for techs. There's a lot of way to get fouls that might seem more like breaking down in the clutch than it would seem like trying to just stop the clock. Maybe they'd catch on, but I honestly would expect a technical foul before getting DQd. The badminton thing was teams playing poorly to change how things would be outside the actual game they were playing (ie, playing bad to get a more favored matchup next round), while intentional fouls are actual to win the game currently being played. I don't think it'd be a problem, but I think there's loopholes around it if it's banned.

You draw a valid distinction between influencing the game itself versus outside of a game. However, we are talking about this rather nebulous idea of "Olympic spirit." When you violate it, even without breaking a rule, you get disqualified.

If this is about "trying to win," why is the line drawn at the game level, rather than the tournament level? Or the individual play level, if we think smaller. Arguably, these Dq'd teams were trying too hard to win. Not that game, of course, but at least a medal.

[TylerTheDebater]

Reach ins, attempting to draw bad charges, yapping at refs for techs. There's a lot of way to get fouls that might seem more like breaking down in the clutch than it would seem like trying to just stop the clock. Maybe they'd catch on, but I honestly would expect a technical foul before getting DQd. The badminton thing was teams playing poorly to change how things would be outside the actual game they were playing (ie, playing bad to get a more favored matchup next round), while intentional fouls are actual to win the game currently being played. I don't think it'd be a problem, but I think there's loopholes around it if it's banned.

You draw a valid distinction between influencing the game itself versus outside of a game. However, we are talking about this rather nebulous idea of "Olympic spirit." When you violate it, even without breaking a rule, you get disqualified.

If this is about "trying to win," why is the line drawn at the game level, rather than the tournament level? Or the individual play level, if we think smaller. Arguably, these Dq'd teams were trying too hard to win. Not that game, of course, but at least a medal.

Because, by intentionally fouling they weren't trying to lose. They were trying to win by stopping the clock and getting the ball back to them by forcing a player to the free throw line where he'd have to earn his two points. They were fouling in hopes of losing. They were fouling in hopes of winning.

I know this isn't exactly the point of your question, but you can't intentionally foul at the Olympics, at least not like in the NBA.

A foul with no play on the ball (what players do in the NBA to quickly send someone to the line) is an unsportsmanlike foul under international rules. The fouled player would get two shots and his team would retain possession.

What about a reach in foul or a charging call? I know it's different from the NBA (stopped clock versus stopped clock/FT/possession) but would that be considered unsportsmanlike?

If you're reaching in, you're trying to get the ball. This is from the Wikipedia page on Flagrant Fouls:

"FIBA basketball rules have a similar foul called an unsportsmanlike foul, which is roughly equivalent to a flagrant type 1, with the addition that an unsportsmanlike foul can be called if a player fouls with no intention to play the ball, as well as if a player fouls another player on a fast break from behind him. If a player commits a foul warranting immediate ejection from the game, the foul would be called as a disqualifying foul - similar to a flagrant 2. Two unsportsmanlike fouls lead to automatic ejection, similar to the NBA.

The penalty for an unsportsmanlike or disqualifying foul is two free throws and possession at midcourt for the opposing team. If a player is disqualified for two unsportsmanlike fouls, there is no additional penalty for the disqualification: only the second unsportsmanlike foul is punished, just like the NBA."

Basically, you can't just wrap someone up or grab them to stop the clock.

So they could just reach in to stop the clock instead of the usually drape up intentional foul? That's a loophole. I should coach Team USA.

[pimpim]

Reach ins, attempting to draw bad charges, yapping at refs for techs. There's a lot of way to get fouls that might seem more like breaking down in the clutch than it would seem like trying to just stop the clock. Maybe they'd catch on, but I honestly would expect a technical foul before getting DQd. The badminton thing was teams playing poorly to change how things would be outside the actual game they were playing (ie, playing bad to get a more favored matchup next round), while intentional fouls are actual to win the game currently being played. I don't think it'd be a problem, but I think there's loopholes around it if it's banned.

You draw a valid distinction between influencing the game itself versus outside of a game. However, we are talking about this rather nebulous idea of "Olympic spirit." When you violate it, even without breaking a rule, you get disqualified.

If this is about "trying to win," why is the line drawn at the game level, rather than the tournament level? Or the individual play level, if we think smaller. Arguably, these Dq'd teams were trying too hard to win. Not that game, of course, but the entire tournament.

I think the point is that you should always be trying to win. An intentional foul is committed in an attempt to win, so it is different from hitting shots into the net intentionally. Often, without the intentional foul, it is a sure thing that the trailing team will lose. Everyone realises that the the badminton teams were only looking to lose with a view to the bigger picture, but it leaves a sour taste in people's mouths.

Maybe I'm being cynical, but I think betting on sports is a big issue here. I would imagine a lot of people that put money on a team or individual to win would be upset if they went out with the clear intention of losing.

[pimpim]

So they could just reach in to stop the clock instead of the usually drape up intentional foul? That's a loophole. I should coach Team USA

Yes, and that is exactly what teams do. It does make fouling to stop the clock tougher though, especially if the ballhandler is good at being evasive.

It's one of those situations where everybody knows what you're trying to do, you just have to disguise it enough that it doesn't look so blatant so as to force the ref into calling the unsportsmanlike.

I think the refs at the Olympics have been pretty lenient with calling intentional fouls anyway, especially for NBA players who are used to the different rules.

[Kobe8Forever]

I think the point is that you should always be trying to win. An intentional foul is committed in an attempt to win, so it is different from hitting shots into the net intentionally. Often, without the intentional foul, it is a sure thing that the trailing team will lose. Everyone realises that the the badminton teams were only looking to lose with a view to the bigger picture, but it leaves a sour taste in people's mouths.

Maybe I'm being cynical, but I think betting on sports is a big issue here. I would imagine a lot of people that put money on a team or individual to win would be upset if they went out with the clear intention of losing.

I see the distinction, but the line is not so fine to me. It could be argued that they were "always trying to win." At least, within the tournament format they were placed in, i.e., the rules. I would blame the people who made "lose to win" a possibility, rather than these players.

The second point about sports betting raises an interesting question, especially pertaining to why "always trying to win" appears to be quantized at the game level rather than the tournament level.

[wetsthebed]

I think there's a big difference between intentionally losing a game and doing something intentionally to help you win a game.