FFL - 2012-13 - Voting on Rule Change - draft order posted

[floppymoose]

Fran? Don't really care either but if I have to I will say no just because he streams too much.

I know a way to fix that

[Woody Allen]

Fran? Don't really care either but if I have to I will say no just because he streams too much.

I know a way to fix that

Ugh. Not this again

[bww78]

So I haven't officially counted up the vote tallies, but it looks like the vote comes out like this:

1) No more IL and don't add a spot
2) No divisions
3) Seasonal limit on moves, not weekly.

Now we just need a number for that limit. I said 35, and got some backlash. I do, however, want it to be lower than last season. I'm thinking 45, max.

[floppymoose]

You are all invited to my roto league:
viewtopic.php?f=336&t=1199821

[Breakdown777]

I couldn't resist and I crunched the numbers so far...someone else please feel free to double check my tallies.
I'm only counting 16 votes. Did you cast a vote Blake?

so far as it stands:
Eliminate IL:
15 yes
1 no (I admit this one could be off. It seemed like a landslide and I didn't really pay close attention.)

Add one roster spot:
9 yes
5 no
2 impartial

Divisions:
4 yes
11 no
1 impartial

Seasonal vs. Weekly limits:
8 seasonal (if you count Flopp's flip-flop...pun intended )
6 weekly
1 both
1 impartial

with 4 left to vote (unless I missed the commish ballot), it looks like we are getting rid of IL and are not having divisions. The other changes are still up to a vote.

[bww78]

Thanks Break!

As commissioner, I never vote. This also ensures there will be an odd number of votes total.

Looks like we do want another roster spot after all.

I'll be running the lottery tomorrow (hopefully).

[Curtis Lemansky]

I think weekly limits is the way to go. With seasonal limit, technically you can still take advantage of streaming. If you do only 25 moves until the last 2 weeks, then you can make 25 moves in the last 2 weeks.

Weekly limit leaves no room for streaming.

[writersblock]

I think weekly limits is the way to go. With seasonal limit, technically you can still take advantage of streaming. If you do only 25 moves until the last 2 weeks, then you can make 25 moves in the last 2 weeks.

Weekly limit leaves no room for streaming.

This is what I said a week ago.

[sabonis]

I'll again tell you guys the correct way to go.

3 per week isn't conisdered streaming, but 3x21=63 which is too high, so let's put a seasonal move limit at 45 as well.

[Curtis Lemansky]

Why do you care what it adds up to in total? Why are you obsessed with that? The reason we have a max limit on moves is to eliminate streaming. Weekly moves at 3 or 4 does that. What the number adds up to in total over the course is completely irrelevant. Does weekly limit eliminate streaming? Yes. That should be enough.


I think we are really nitpicking here. Just set the weekly moves at 3 or 4 and be done with it. It is THAT simple.

[writersblock]

Why do you care what it adds up to in total? Why are you obsessed with that? The reason we have a max limit on moves is to eliminate streaming. Weekly moves at 3 or 4 does that. What the number adds up to in total over the course is completely irrelevant. Does weekly limit eliminate streaming? Yes. That should be enough.


I think we are really nitpicking here. Just set the weekly moves at 3 or 4 and be done with it. It is THAT simple.

Like Gokce, I too don't see what the problem is. The weekly limit would eliminate streaming not the seasonal limit. It looks like this may be a moot point though, since seasonal has more votes.

But the last thing we should do is complicate things with both a weekly and a seasonal. It's overdoing it and would cause confusion. I'd much rather do a seasonal limit than do both seasonal AND weekly. Thankfully, the vote is for seasonal OR weekly, not both. At this point, we need to just stick with current voting topic. If we want to revisit seasonal and weekly mix NEXT season, then so be it. But let's just stick with the vote we have now and get the league started.

[floppymoose]

The temperature really goes up in here whenever we talk about the number of moves, and it's always those wanting lots of moves that crank up the heat. I just wish we could discuss this calmly, without using loaded terms like "obsessed" and "nitpicking".

[Woody Allen]

The problem is that some people just wouldn't quit the talk about streaming and how there is too much moves allowed, even if we had a total of 10 moves for the entire season. That said, on the contrary, it is you and a few others like you who cause this "cranking up the heat", by constantly whining and accusing others of streaming. It is true that I get worked up by such an attitude.

[floppymoose]

I'd just like us to be able to debate civily and get through a vote of some sort. If we did that I won't bring it up for the rest of the season.

[writersblock]

I think the problem is that those calling for limits on moves do so without a sliver of evidence of its need. Show me one instance where streaming altered the league results, and I'll sing a different tune. Sure, there are some weekly battles that may be influenced, but no one has ever won this league streaming and we're going on our 9th/10th season (I've lost count). And if you know you're up against a so-called "streamer" then play it strategically and pad numbers where you can. But the bottom line has always been: In a league like this, you stream, you lose a valuable player. This is why I don't stream. My high number of add/drops has always been trying to chase that under-rated player who could explode. I've won and lost on that strategy (i.e. last year, I had pekovic, and then chased a bigger fish and lost)

Still, we had no problem with streaming last year, it was the IL that was the problem, and we've fixed that.


If we want a limit, I'm fine with it, and if we're trying to limit streaming, then it's the weekly limit that makes the difference, not the seasonal. Those voting for seasonal seem to just be afraid of add/drops, and that's fine. Either way, I don't care what we choose as long as it isn't a confusing mix of the two. We just need to move on and get things going.

[bww78]

Guys, we put it up for a vote. That's the way we always do things. The vote went in favor of a seasonal limit. That's that.

The next issue is what is the number for the limit? I said 45. But that doesn't make it law. Last year was 60, correct? Let's do another easy vote.

45 move limit, or
60 move limit

Please vote! We'll go until Wednesday. Sound good?

[Woody Allen]

I vote for 60.

[jfrost]

Either are fine by me

[Curtis Lemansky]

I think the problem is that those calling for limits on moves do so without a sliver of evidence of its need. Show me one instance where streaming altered the league results, and I'll sing a different tune. Sure, there are some weekly battles that may be influenced, but no one has ever won this league streaming and we're going on our 9th/10th season (I've lost count). And if you know you're up against a so-called "streamer" then play it strategically and pad numbers where you can. But the bottom line has always been: In a league like this, you stream, you lose a valuable player. This is why I don't stream. My high number of add/drops has always been trying to chase that under-rated player who could explode. I've won and lost on that strategy (i.e. last year, I had pekovic, and then chased a bigger fish and lost)

Still, we had no problem with streaming last year, it was the IL that was the problem, and we've fixed that.


If we want a limit, I'm fine with it, and if we're trying to limit streaming, then it's the weekly limit that makes the difference, not the seasonal. Those voting for seasonal seem to just be afraid of add/drops, and that's fine. Either way, I don't care what we choose as long as it isn't a confusing mix of the two. We just need to move on and get things going.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, especially with the bolded part. If you want a change, then you better be able to justify the reasons behind this change. Again I'd like to point out that this league is not a new league. It has been run for nearly a decade with certain rules. You accept those rules when you agree to be a part of the league. If you are proposing a change, the reason behind it should be either to improve the gameplay or to eliminate a particular problem, not because "I prefer to play so". Until any one of you can point me out a streaming problem or explain me how it improves the gameplay, I'll continue to object these irrational proposals. Please do get back at me once you can carry your arguments beyond the "uhmm well I'd like to play in a league where people dont make many moves".

And yeah I dont think the words "nitpicking" or "obsessed" are really strong words in this case. If the shoe fits...


With that out of the way, my vote goes to 60.

[sly]

I vote 45... with IL's no longer counting for add/drops (we eliminated it, right?)... I'm okay with needing to double-think before add/dropping marginal talent. If somebody wants to save all of their add/drops for the final few weeks then I'm okay with that. 'Tis each their own strategy.