Moses vs Dirk

[ahonui06]

Moses Malone nostalgia is strong here on RealGM. He was the 80's equivalent to Kevin Love when it comes to stat padding.

This is DIRK easily especially considering DIRK is a better playoff performer and didn't need another all-star on his roster to win a title.

[ushvinder88]

Dirk all the way, Moses becomes less impressive the more you look at his whole career rather than nitpicking his '3 mvps and 1 fmvp.' He played in an era where bigs were regularly shooting 55-60% from the field and yet from 1977-1978 and from 1984-1990, Moses Malone was shooting less than 50% from the field. Outside of his 5 year peak from 1979-1983, moses was extremely inefficient and did nothing in the playoffs. His on court impact is very overrated. Not to mention that from games i've seen, he uses the backboard to intentionally grab more rebounds and alot of his rebounds came from missing easy buckets. There's more to basketball than boxscore stats. Dirk, KG and David Robinson had far bigger on court impacts than the very overrated Moses Malone.

[kasino]

1. Offensive rebounding gives your team extra positions it is as important as defensive rebounding
the player who is getting the offensive rebound isn't going to try to make every attempt he will get those that are in his grasp, Malone was able to fight for the rebound and still get back on defense...its not like Dirk has ever been a defensive stopper by the way
2. because Dirk wants to play on the perimeter does not mean he shouldn't be required to rebound in all forms

again no player is going to go after the offensive rebound every position and Malone isn't just sitting under the basket, he is a traditional post player and does nearly all of his work in the post
he either took the shot or was played off of to get the offensive rebound
Dirk by style of play is far from the post, not a problem but certainly a tell of his style of being a finesse big. Malone undoubtably is a better rebounder able to match DIrk's defensive rebounding(Dirk does have the edge by .3) and destroy him on the offensive boards totally more rebounds then Dirk

Well thats simply false he had center by commity in 03 with Lafrentz/Bradley
since 04 had Dampier/Diop then Dampier/Haywood

never said he was a bad defender but in the form of Pierce/Gervin/Durant he isn't a good defender

[AnaheimRoyale]

Moses. Just a better player.

[Texas Chuck]

kasino,

its hard to take your opinion seriously in this debate because its obvious you have never watched Dirk or the Mavs actually play and are basing your opinion off of stereotypes about his game that even the laziest basketball analysts stopping pushing 5-6 years ago.

It makes me wonder if you actually know anything about Moses either tbh.

My favorite part of your post was listing the centers Dirk played with pre-Haywood and then reaching the conclusion he never played center. Those scrubs are the reason he played so much center.

[kasino]

you want me to spout that Dirk is a defensive stopper
did I say he was soft, I said finesse he isn't being "punked" but not mixing it up with the Howard's/Perkins of the world

again never said he didn't play center but was exclusively center in any year as the other poster was implying. they weren't scrubs definitely Dampier/Haywood unless your thinking the last couple of years but for the most part he had starting class centers

anyway think what like

[chitownsalesmen]

Moses is the more traditional pf.

[TheKingOfVa360]

Moses Malone nostalgia is strong here on RealGM. He was the 80's equivalent to Kevin Love when it comes to stat padding.

This is DIRK easily especially considering DIRK is a better playoff performer and didn't need another all-star on his roster to win a title.

How can you compare Moses to Love when he has 3 MVPs and one of the greatest playoff runs ever. You want an example of empty stats then take a look at Dirk last season

[mysticbb]

1. Offensive rebounding gives your team extra positions it is as important as defensive rebounding

Both of that is wrong. Offensive rebounding keeps the possession, it doesn't give extra possessions. Defensive rebounding shows a clear positive correlation to scoring margin, offensive rebounding does not. Better offensive rebounding teams tend to be better offensive teams, but at the same time lose points on the defensive end.

the player who is getting the offensive rebound isn't going to try to make every attempt he will get those that are in his grasp, Malone was able to fight for the rebound and still get back on defense

:lol:

Sorry, but that is complete nonsense. Malone lost more battles for the offensive rebound, which is easily explained by the fact that the defensive team is per se in a better position to grab the rebound. And no, Malone was not back on defense in time, him trying to get an offensive rebound cost time.

...its not like Dirk has ever been a defensive stopper by the way

In comparison to Malone Nowitzki's presence actually improved the defense, we can't say the same about Moses Malone.

2. because Dirk wants to play on the perimeter does not mean he shouldn't be required to rebound in all forms

When Nowitzki played center in the series against the Warriors, he had a 13 ORB% (as C!), while still playing more often away from the basket than Moses Malone. Is that really that hard to understand that playing in a different position in the offensive scheme with different tasks will lead per se to a difference in ORB%? Play Nowitzki in the same fashion as Moses Malone and he will likely grab at least as many offensive rebounds relative to the opportunities as Moses Malone. It is pretty clear that Nowitzki in a similar role as Malone on the defensive end grabbed MORE defensive rebounds relative to the opportunities than Moses Malone. Those are just the facts.

Numbers have to be put into context. You are ignoring completely that both did not play the same position for their teams. But when we look how Nowitzki performed when playing C on the defensive end gives the clear indication that Nowitzki's rebounding is not inferior to Moses Malone.

Well thats simply false he had center by commity in 03 with Lafrentz/Bradley
since 04 had Dampier/Diop then Dampier/Haywood

Seriously, what is false? Nowitzki played about 20% of his minutes between 2003 and 2010 as center.

[Optms]

Moses Malone nostalgia is strong here on RealGM. He was the 80's equivalent to Kevin Love when it comes to stat padding.

Led Houston to the playoffs almost every year he was there including an NBA finals where he averaged 26 and 14. The one year they did miss in '78 he only played in 59 games.

Afterwards, lead the 76ers to an NBA title including a playoff appearance year he was there. During their championship playoff run, he averaged 25 and 15. Even took the Bullets to back to back playoff appearances after his stint with the Sixers.

3 MVPs. NBA Champion. 100 playoff games under his belt. Moses Malone, you're stat padder.

[lorak]

Moses Malone is like Kevin Love without the jumper. Someone who produces impressive boxscore numbers while not having such a high overall impact.

mysticbb, I agree with you 100% when you are talking about Dirk vs Moses, but how Love isn't high level impact player? +2.9 RAPM isn't far than Durant's +3.4 or Gasol's +3.1 and it's better than Kobe's and Deron's +2.4.
And according to your SPM he's 9th overall in the NBA (almost the same place as in WS/48 - 7th).

[mysticbb]

The one year they did miss in '78 he only played in 59 games.

The Rockets missing the playoffs in 1978 had more to do with that:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgqUZ1IAA_8[/youtube]

Until that point the Rockets play like a 0.1 SRS team. Then, with Tomjanovic out and Moses Malone in, the Rockets went down to play like a -4.4 SRS team, a 4.5 point drop. For the game without Moses Malone and without Tomjanovic the Rockets played like a -6.9 SRS team. Malone showed an impact of +2.5 on a -6.9 team, leading them to be a -4.4 team. That is something about 30 players in the league can do. But most certainly that is an impact other All-Time great players laugh about.

Afterwards, lead the 76ers to an NBA title including a playoff appearance year he was there. During their championship playoff run, he averaged 25 and 15.

The 76ers without Malone went to the finals! Seriously, which Mavericks team would have been capable of going to the finals without Nowitzki?

[mysticbb]

mysticbb, I agree with you 100% when you are talking about Dirk vs Moses, but how Love isn't high level impact player? +2.9 RAPM isn't far than Durant's +3.4 or Gasol's +3.1 and it's better than Kobe's and Deron's +2.4.

+3 is not a high level impact player, if we compare that to other All-Time great players. That the numbers for other players are close or lower just shows how overrated those players are. Especially Durant does not have such a high impact.

And according to your SPM he's 9th overall in the NBA (almost the same place as in WS/48 - 7th).

A boxscore-based metric. It should be surprising that Love is getting "overrated" by that.

[kasino]

please show that statement to be true
offensive rebound and defensive rebounding show mixed results in a team being better offensively or defensively

I didn't say he wins every battle for the offensive rebound but I didn't say he was trying to get every offensive rebound. He still was leading the league in rebounds on the offensive end and in total for multiple years..I don't know how this is a debate Kevin Love is a better rebounder then Dirk and Malone is better then him

well just using SRS the Rockets had a -10.73 drop but with Philly with him had a 1.79 improvement. SO Moses did have a defensive impact

that is a very small sample size and the Warriors had Andris at center
he just isn't the rebounder Moses is, I don't know how this is up for debate

[JordansBulls]

Moses Malone nostalgia is strong here on RealGM. He was the 80's equivalent to Kevin Love when it comes to stat padding.

This is DIRK easily especially considering DIRK is a better playoff performer and didn't need another all-star on his roster to win a title.

Kevin Love never had the best numbers in the NBA.

[ronnymac2]

I'd probably roll with Dirk, but Moses gets underrated. His offensive value gets misunderstood.

In this thread 7 people picked Moses Malone (Nowitzki has 6), 6 of them seem to think that this is an easy choice and some making statements like Malone would have had the far superior peak and had some sort of crazy longevity. Malone is constantly considered the better defender despite the fact that there is NOTHING (including watching them play!) which can back that up. Malone is considered the far superior rebounder, because people don't understand that a guy underneath the basket is more likely to grab an offensive rebound than someone playing on the perimeter while going back on defense. The defensive rebounding numbers are not showing any kind of advantage for Moses Malone. The only thing we see in the regular season is that Moses Malone as center on defense gets more defensive rebounds than Nowitzki as PF. Well, if someone actually know where the ball goes most of the time, that is hardly surprising. When Nowitzki played C he had a clearly higher DRB% than when he played PF too.

As it seems Malone is still overrated. The reason seems to be that most people are judging players solely on raw boxscore numbers like PPG and RPG. How they come up with the idea that Moses Malone was the better defender is really interesting, because the only explanation I have is that they still think Nowitzki would be some sort of bad defender.

Moses Malone is like Kevin Love without the jumper. Someone who produces impressive boxscore numbers while not having such a high overall impact.

I should have clarified: the people who are taking Dirk for the right reasons (you and others) are being too harsh on Moses.

As I said before, I would take DIrk over Moses. I agree with your analysis of Dirk's game and why his strengths are more beneficial to me if I'm building a basketball team.

But I get the feeling you think Moses is a one-trick pony who excels at the one aspect of basketball that has a very low correlation with positive team results- offensive rebounding. Is my feeling accurate?

[mysticbb]

please show that statement to be true
offensive rebound and defensive rebounding show mixed results in a team being better offensively or defensively

Make a regression analysis on the available data since 1973/74 and you will see what I mean. Just glancing over some of the results and conclude "mixed results" is pretty much useless. For sure, you will find exception from the rule always, but in average the better teams tend to rebound better defensively, but not offensively.

well just using SRS the Rockets had a -10.73 drop but with Philly with him had a 1.79 improvement. SO Moses did have a defensive impact

The Rockets shifted a lot of minutes around and actually tanked that season in order to get the better draft pick. As the worst record in the conference at least ensured the 2nd pick.
The 76ers marginal improved, a similar thing is seen in the year later when Moses Malone missed games.

that is a very small sample size and the Warriors had Andris at center

Andris Biedrins from 2007 to 2011 had a 25.6 DRB%, that is higher than Moses Malone's. And yeah, Nowitzki did not play often as center, but when he did and played closer to the opponents basket, he showed that he can get offensive rebounds.

he just isn't the rebounder Moses is, I don't know how this is up for debate

For sure you don't understand that, because you would need to start analyzing how they played. That is for sure tougher than just taking a raw rebounds per game numbers and make assumption based on numbers without context.

But I get the feeling you think Moses is a one-trick pony who excels at the one aspect of basketball that has a very low correlation with positive team results- offensive rebounding. Is my feeling accurate?

No, not at all. Moses Malone was a very, very good basketballer. And when I say that he was like the earlier version of Kevin Love, you see that I'm talking about a +3 player here. He clearly had a positive impact on the outcome of the game, but not as big of an impact as his boxscore stats suggest. People seem to assume that he was some sort of great defender, but he wasn't. His raw rebounding numbers are making it seem as if he was such a great rebounder. He had a better feeling for the offensive board than others, but he also just rebounded his own missed layups quite often. His passing and ball handling was clearly worse in comparison to other All-Time great bigs, there shouldn't be a debate. Overall we can see that he didn't make such a big difference, nonetheless he was making a positive impact on the game.
Well, my words might give the impression you have, but that is mainly because a lot of people seem to just take the MVP awards, the lucky 1981 playoff run and his raw boxscore numbers in order to assume that Moses Malone had some freaking high peak.

[TheXFactor]

1. Moses
2. Dirk

[ronnymac2]

But I get the feeling you think Moses is a one-trick pony who excels at the one aspect of basketball that has a very low correlation with positive team results- offensive rebounding. Is my feeling accurate?

No, not at all. Moses Malone was a very, very good basketballer. And when I say that he was like the earlier version of Kevin Love, you see that I'm talking about a +3 player here. He clearly had a positive impact on the outcome of the game, but not as big of an impact as his boxscore stats suggest. People seem to assume that he was some sort of great defender, but he wasn't. His raw rebounding numbers are making it seem as if he was such a great rebounder. He had a better feeling for the offensive board than others, but he also just rebounded his own missed layups quite often. His passing and ball handling was clearly worse in comparison to other All-Time great bigs, there shouldn't be a debate. Overall we can see that he didn't make such a big difference, nonetheless he was making a positive impact on the game.
Well, my words might give the impression you have, but that is mainly because a lot of people seem to just take the MVP awards, the lucky 1981 playoff run and his raw boxscore numbers in order to assume that Moses Malone had some freaking high peak.

All right. At least I got you to say nice things about his game.

[colts18]

Its ridiculous to compare Moses DRB% numbers with Dirk and Biedrins. They both play in a different era. Go look at the DRB% numbers from that era in comparison to this era and it will explain why Dirk had a higher DRB%.