Moses vs Dirk

[questionmark]

One is European and one is from the US. Make your choice now.

[ahonui06]

Moses Malone nostalgia is strong here on RealGM. He was the 80's equivalent to Kevin Love when it comes to stat padding.

This is DIRK easily especially considering DIRK is a better playoff performer and didn't need another all-star on his roster to win a title.

How can you compare Moses to Love when he has 3 MVPs and one of the greatest playoff runs ever. You want an example of empty stats then take a look at Dirk last season

I'm definitely not comparing their playoff success because as far as I'm concerned, Kevin Love is a low-impact perennial loser since he hasn't made the playoffs yet.

However, I was comparing Malone to Love in the sense that he rather stand underneath the basket in an attempt to secure rebounds than actually play defense. There is also tons of video evidence that shows Malone missing layup attempts just to secure additional offensive rebounds to pad his stat line.

[kasino]

please what is your findings because as you said just glossing over gets mixed results and not an exception to the rule kind. there is no pattern to say which is more conductive to winning. As you said defensive rebounds change position but offensive rebounds keep position. both valuable to a team, of course more defensive rebounds then offensive rebounds but for Moses to match Dirks defensive rebounds and him having way more offensive rebounds clearly shows him being a better rebounder

the Rockets didn't tank they were a horrible team and had no chance of having a decent record
they were a horrible offensive team and a middling defensive team
Moses 2nd year as a 76er the team fell off because Moses missed games and the 3rd year went back up as played most of them so yes Moses had a major impact on the team

he also had a higher DRB% then Dirk in that time frame, does that make him a better rebounder?
and in the time frame your using Moses is still a better offensive rebounder Dirk barely improved

you want to say Dirk is a better rebounder because he got some rebounders as a face up forward?
thats not fair at all David Lee/Kevin Love/Rasheed are face up forwards and get more rebounds then Dirk

[lorak]

Its ridiculous to compare Moses DRB% numbers with Dirk and Biedrins. They both play in a different era. Go look at the DRB% numbers from that era in comparison to this era and it will explain why Dirk had a higher DRB%.

Good point. Relatively to league average Dirk doesn't look better.

[jr lucosa]

Moses Malone. Defensive anchor.

[ushvinder88]

Moses Malone a defensive anchor? LOL i love how moses is being given additional traits, from the games i've seen, hes one of the most overrated defensive players ever. Moses Malone was a tier below hakeem and tim duncan, ranking dirk above him is certainly reasonable, but people on here will have you believe the gap between them is big, lol. Moses= Overrated.

[mysticbb]

Its ridiculous to compare Moses DRB% numbers with Dirk and Biedrins. They both play in a different era. Go look at the DRB% numbers from that era in comparison to this era and it will explain why Dirk had a higher DRB%.

The DRB% in average for C-F fro 1977 to 1990 was 19.8, from 2001 to 2012 it is 20.5. The difference isn't that big. For teams the main difference comes from differences in terms of transition plays, today securing the rebound is also work done by forwards and guards, while earlier those players ran out in transition quicker. So, even if we take the differences into account, we see Nowitzki with 24.6 DRB% in the playoffs, while Moses Malone had 23.4 DRB%.

Then again, the numbers do not suggest that Malone was the superior rebounder, let alone that Nowitzki achieved that numbers while playing the forward position more often, a position which naturally leads to less defensive rebounds.

What I argue against is the notion that the more offensive rebounds by Moses Malone would lead to the conclusion that Malone is the far superior rebounder.

please what is your findings because as you said just glossing over gets mixed results and not an exception to the rule kind.

DRB% has a 0.3 correlation to scoring margin, ORB has 0. Conclusion, better teams tend to grab more defensive rebounds, while not being better offensive rebounding teams.

for Moses to match Dirks defensive rebounds and him having way more offensive rebounds clearly shows him being a better rebounder

Seriously, we went over that multiple times already. Are you really not understand that getting offensive rebounds depends on the position on the court and on the tasks?

the Rockets didn't tank they were a horrible team and had no chance of having a decent record
they were a horrible offensive team and a middling defensive team
Moses 2nd year as a 76er the team fell off because Moses missed games and the 3rd year went back up as played most of them so yes Moses had a major impact on the team

:lol:

Sorry, but that is so much nonsense. The 84 76ers played 2.5 points better with Moses Malone, absolute prime Moses Malone was able to lift an average team to play 2.5 points better. Then they add Charles Barkley and play about 1.6 points better than the year before with Moses Malone. The difference can very well be explained by having Barkley replacing minutes of weaker players. There was no major impact by Moses Malone unless you call those 2 to 3 points he usually added "major".

he also had a higher DRB% then Dirk in that time frame, does that make him a better rebounder?
and in the time frame your using Moses is still a better offensive rebounder Dirk barely improved

Top5 DRB% in the postseason:

Malone Nowitzki
28.2 28.0
27.1 27.9
26.5 27.7
25.8 26.6
23.1 26.1

The only argument Malone has as a "superior rebounder" is the offensive rebounding part, something which I showed was mostly circumstantially achieved. Nowitzki in similar roles showed that he can also get offensive rebounds at a high clip.

you want to say Dirk is a better rebounder because he got some rebounders as a face up forward?
thats not fair at all David Lee/Kevin Love/Rasheed are face up forwards and get more rebounds then Dirk

I want to say that Nowitzki is not worse as a rebounder than Moses Malone. And Lee, Love and Wallace played differently, while Nowitzki goes back on defense once a shot is released, Lee and Love are going for the offensive rebound. That is a difference in playing style, which has to be accounted for. That's also one of the reasons Nowitzki has a better impact on defense than those two players.

And then again, why is nobody taking the differences in ball handling and passing into account? Why did you consider Moses Malone the superior scorer and defender? It is absurd to just focus on the offensive rebounding part and conclude that Moses Malone would be the better player. Seriously, Malone is the better overall player, because he grabbed more offensive boards? That is the argument? I'm amazed.

[colts18]

Moses was definitely the better rebounder. He finished in the top 8 of Defensive Rebounding% 7 times compared to Dirk's 2 times. Moses led the league in playoff DRB% in 1983 and was 4rd in 1984. Dirk never finished above 3rd place in the playoffs.

[mysticbb]

Moses was definitely the better rebounder. He finished in the top 8 of Defensive Rebounding% 7 times compared to Dirk's 2 times. Moses led the league in playoff DRB% in 1983 and was 4rd in 1984. Dirk never finished above 3rd place in the playoffs.

When a team ends up being 22nd in a 22-team-league, it also finished higher than the 27th team in a 30-team-league. That doesn't make the former the better team. ;)

In 1983, when Malone finished 1st in DRB% (with 28.2) in the playoffs, the two best rebounders from the regular season didn't play in the playoffs. When Nowitzki had 28 DRB% in the 2006 playoffs, the better rebounders were mostly in the playoffs. Also, the 76ers in 1983 finished below average in DRB% in the postseason, while the Mavericks in 2006 finished above average. So, how much does that tell us about Malone's defensive rebounding impact?
Moses Malone's teams finished constantly at average or below average in DRB%. Malone gets the defensive rebounds, because of playing style and not so great defensive rebounders as his temmates. From 1977 to 1982, the Rockets are in average below league average in DRB% (66.9 vs. 67.2), from 1983 to 1986 the 76ers are below league average (66.3 vs. 67.1), the Bullets in 1987 to 1988 are far below average (64.3 vs. 66.9), the Hawks with Moses Malone, again below average (66.5 vs. 67.5). And then we look at the Mavericks from 2001 to 2012 being at league average (72.8 vs. 72.5).

How Malone finished individually doesn't tell us anything about his rebounding abilities in comparison to Nowitzki. Put Moses Malone into todays league and he wouldn't have those higher finishes either.

[kasino]

please how did you come to this data...I will not say anything else concerning offensive/defensive rebounding in terms of winning until you show me your findings

because Dirk plays on the perimeter doesn't mean its a trivial aspect of basketball, maybe Dirk should play more in the post he would be able to grab more offensive rebounds

thats not what you was talking about, you was talking about 07-11
but ok you do know that right next to DRB% there is TRB% in which Moses is by all standards superior
circumstances for Moses is to get the offensive rebound while leading his team in DRB% and total rebounds(also the league)

its not to be accounted for he had one good year as a great offensive rebounder but still was showed up by his own teammate(Diop)
Moses is also the better defender not just better rebounder in general
PS wise Dirk is the better scorer and at all times the better passer/playmaker
but as a rebounder/defender Moses is better at all times while being the better RS scorer(close in the PS) and as close in the RS and PS as a passer/playmaker

[Warspite]

Everyone has a stretch 4 that shoots outside jumpers in todays NBA. What nobody has is a low post wrecking ball that forces your team give up transition offense and has the ability physcialy wear down whole teams and guts them with his power and ability to draw fouls + he can shoot fts.

I dont know how you would begin to guard Moses with the no hand check rules. When you consider hes a face up pump fake drive and finish type player. He just wrecks whole teams...

The gap between Moses and the 5th C is much wider than DIrk and 5th best PF.

[mysticbb]

please how did you come to this data.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/

There is the data. You can easily get the ORB% and the MOV. Then you can run a regression (R, SPSS or even Excel can do that).

because Dirk plays on the perimeter doesn't mean its a trivial aspect of basketball, maybe Dirk should play more in the post he would be able to grab more offensive rebounds

Why should he do that? The important thing in basketball is to win the game. In order to do that a player should help his team to outscore the opponent by either improving offensive or defensive efficiency, or even both. Nowitzki's playing style obviously helps the Mavericks. In fact Nowitzki's teams are superior in terms of average offense and defense to Malone's teams. There is no indication that a change in playing style would help the Mavericks win more.

but ok you do know that right next to DRB% there is TRB% in which Moses is by all standards superior
circumstances for Moses is to get the offensive rebound while leading his team in DRB% and total rebounds(also the league)

TRB% takes offensive rebounding into account. For sure, someone who grabs a lot of offensive rebounds while have more rebounds overall than someone who doesn't while both have the same amount of defensive rebounds.

Moses is also the better defender not just better rebounder in general

:lol:

No, sorry, but that is just so laughable at this point. if you believe that Moses Malone was the better defender, you are clearly lacking the necessary skills to evaluate defense or you have never seen Moses Malone play.

PS wise Dirk is the better scorer and at all times the better passer/playmaker
but as a rebounder/defender Moses is better at all times while being the better RS scorer(close in the PS) and as close in the RS and PS as a passer/playmaker

Seriously, Nowitzki is by far the better passer and ball handler, there shouldn't even a slight dispute about that. There is a reason that Nowitzki has a higher AST% and lower TOV%, whether we look at the regular season or the postseason. Oh well ...

[bastillon]

this discussions seems weird to read since I got Kasino on the ignore list, but it's good to see Mystic trashing down the myths.

[kasino]

thats just the website you came to a .3 vs 0 conclusion since 73 I'm not just going to take your word here
prove that you must have made some sort of spread sheet to come to this conclusion

Moses teams on average had 5th best offense with a middling defense around 12th in Houston and 8th in Philly I do know that Moses improved every team he's been on

yes it does and thats why its Moses is the better rebounder
as said he matches Dirks defensive rebounds and destroys him in offensive rebounds totaling more rebounds, leading the league in rebounds

Yea he was one of the perimer defensive players of the 80's didn't say best but compared to his competition much higher on the list then Dirk....who HAS NEVER BEEN A DEFENSIVE STOPPER
I think you have trouble with this

I didn't say he wasn't I clearly said he was the better passer/ballhandler
but moses is a better rebounder/defender

I love that some poster I never ever replied to or had a interaction with got me on his/her ignore list
didn't know we had one
does my name just show up or is the space completely skipped, I feel honored I think I'm hurting some Dirk fans feelings but I don't think I'm being a A-hole about it
I'm not the one saying Dirk is a defensive anchor and totally ignoring Moses contributions

[Texas Chuck]

Everyone has a stretch 4 that shoots outside jumpers in todays NBA. What nobody has is a low post wrecking ball that forces your team give up transition offense and has the ability physcialy wear down whole teams and guts them with his power and ability to draw fouls + he can shoot fts.

I .

Again. Its amazing how people post on an NBA forum in 2012 yet seemingly have no idea how Dirk actually plays. Dirk was never a "stretch 4" ever. Not ever in his career was his game this one-dimensional. Dirk avg 6.5 FTA per game for his career and much more than that in the playoffs. When he was younger most of that was created off the dribble. Now more of that is coming from his work in the low and high posts. Of course Moses Malone is a better player than Ryan Anderson or Matt Bonner or whomever is you know actually a stretch 4.

Moses was a hell of a player and if you want to pick him ahead of Dirk I disagree but I think you can make a decent case for Moses. Just make a legitimite one.

[mysticbb]

thats just the website you came to a .3 vs 0 conclusion since 73 I'm not just going to take your word here
prove that you must have made some sort of spread sheet to come to this conclusion

Code: Select all

Korrelationen            
      MOV   ORB   DRB
Standardisiertes Kreuzprodukt
   MOV   1,000   ,032   ,319
   ORB   ,032   1,000   -,441
   DRB   ,319   -,441   1,000
Sig. (Einseitig)
   MOV   .   ,156   ,000
   ORB   ,156   .   ,000
   DRB   ,000   ,000   .
N   MOV   984   984   984
   ORB   984   984   984
   DRB   984   984   984
a Koeffizienten wurden durch den Ursprung berechnet.            


That is the data from 1973/74 to 2010/11. ORB stands for the difference between league average ORB% and team ORB%, DRB stands for the difference between league average DRB% and team DRB%. MOV is the average scoring margin for the team. I used SPSS in order to calculate the correlation coefficients.
As I said, 0.3 for DRB and 0 for ORB. No idea, but do you think I make that up?

Moses teams on average had 5th best offense with a middling defense around 12th in Houston and 8th in Philly I do know that Moses improved every team he's been on

You should take a Algebra course, because the Rockets with Moses Malone were not in average 12th on defense, in fact the highest was 16th out of 23 teams while going down to 22 out of 22 teams. The Rockets were a clear below average defensive team.
Nobody is arguing that Moses Malone is not improving the teams. But he isn't doing it at a high rate. Rockets became better by 2.1 points, the 76ers by 1.8, the Bullets by 0.3, the Hawks by 1.2. Those numbers are in agreement with the results when looking at how the teams played without Moses Malone in comparison to the games with him when Malone missed games, because of an injury. Something between 2 and 3, that's it. That is most certainly good, but that is not something we see from All-Time great players. As comparison, the Mavericks without Nowitzki in 2011 played -5.7, they had +5.7 in games with him playing, a 11.4 difference.

yes it does and thats why its Moses is the better rebounder
as said he matches Dirks defensive rebounds and destroys him in offensive rebounds totaling more rebounds, leading the league in rebounds

Afer explaining it a couple of times now that offensive rebounding numbers depending on the position someone plays on the court and don't tell us enough about the player's real rebounding ability, I give it up. It is obviously that you are not capable of understanding the basic stuff in basketball.

Yea he was one of the perimer defensive players of the 80's didn't say best but compared to his competition much higher on the list then Dirk....who HAS NEVER BEEN A DEFENSIVE STOPPER
I think you have trouble with this

:lol:

Moses Malone, the guy featuring the worst defense in the league from 1977 to 1979 is now declared one of the best "perimeter defenders". That is so amazing.

[kasino]

I can't read that, is that Russian?
and that graph is all over the place maybe thats just maybe, maybe everyone else could clearly understand that......but I'll look it up myself if your wait a day I'll have it for you I don't know any other way by tally up each team each year

yes your right 19th
the Rockets feel off -10.9
Philly already a good defensive team went to -2.35
the Bullets a 9th best defensive team with Malone fell off -.85
improved the Hawks to 9th best defense from the 14th and when he left they dropped -.43
I don't know of the ratings when he missed a few games but entire seasons they weren't as good
why are we advocating Dirk as the reason for Mavs defense when they have always had Dampier or Haywood when having good defensive teams

yes the basic stuff about basketball is way to hard
I mean a guy getting slightly more defensive rebounds somehow is a better rebounder then someone leading the league in total rebounds which the other person never has
Carlos Boozer is one hell of a rebounder

on a team as its sole defender with no Perkins/Dampier/Olowikandi/Sampson/Rasheed is one of the best premier(sorry typo on my part) defenders in the league as seen in drop offs when departing
and no they were never the worst
77--6th in SRS
78--20th in SRS
79--12th in SRS

[mysticbb]

I can't read that, is that Russian?

Actually, numbers are arabic. ;)

Standardisiertes Kreuzprodukt are the linear correlation coefficients. Obviously, MOV correlates with 1 to MOV, that's why there is the 1,000. MOV to ORB is ,032 means 0.032, to DRB it is ,319 means 0.319. The linear correlation coefficient goes from -1 to 1, with 1 being perfect positive correlation, -1 being perfect negative correlation and 0 means no correlation.

and that graph is all over the place maybe thats just maybe, maybe everyone else could clearly understand that......but I'll look it up myself if your wait a day I'll have it for you I don't know any other way by tally up each team each year

Or maybe you take a statistics class first, before engaging in such analysis? Seriously, I have tears in my eyes reading your post, because it is insanely funny. :)

on a team as its sole defender with no Perkins/Dampier/Olowikandi/Sampson/Rasheed is one of the best premier(sorry typo on my part) defenders in the league as seen in drop offs when departing

So, let me get that straight: Because the 1983 Rockets played 11 points worse on offense than in the previous seaosn (they went down from 108.3 ORtg to 97.0) while staying constant on defense (108.3 DRtg in 1982 as well as 1983), we can conclude that Moses Malone was one of the best "premier" (wtf does that even mean?) defenders? Well, sounds convincing. :lol:

and no they were never the worst
77--6th in SRS
78--20th in SRS
79--12th in SRS

The 1977 Rockets were the worst defensive team in the league, the 1978 Rockets were the worst defensive team in the league, the 1979 Rockets were the 2nd worst defensive team in the league. And no, SRS does not tell you how good a team on defense was. SRS is the scoring margin adjusted for the strength of schedule, meaning:

Points scored - Points against + SOS = SRS

In order to know the defensive strength you have to look at the DRtg.

[ahonui06]

Kasino - Grabbing more offensive rebounds doesn't make you a better player. Kevin Love isn't a better player than DIRK and he grabs a ton of offensive rebounds.

[kasino]

I'm still going to look it up
I'm having trouble following you

yea I'll get right on that, I do know that great offensive rebounders have all been on winning teams

didn't mean to write best and premier I'm with a child so my focus is elsewhere but just premier
Idk why thats hard to believe if you seen him play and the teams he was on as the only defender on the Houston teams and main defender on his Philly teams

and yes looking at DRtg as I said they were 19th and then 8th in Philly

I never said just because he grabbed more offensive rebounds he was the better player but Love is for certain a better rebounder then Dirk as well, not player
he is the clear better rebounder, both offensive/defensive rebounds accounted for
he is a better defender then Dirk
is the better RS scorer and close enough in the PS
Dirk at all times is a better passer as I said before

Moses for sure is better in two categories
Dirk for sure in one
PS and RS they each have clear 3pt advantage
reasoning for taking Moses all-time and for starting a team