Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki

Lightning25 · Post #1 » by **Lightning25** » Wed Aug 8, 2012 8:37 am

Who do you guys have ranked higher in your all-time list? I'm quite indecisive between the two so I would like to know what this site thinks.

lukekarts · Post #2 » by **lukekarts** » Wed Aug 8, 2012 10:47 am

Dirk. More unstoppable offensive player who stepped up in the playoffs. I think his ability to step up in the playoffs is what distinguishes him from Karl Malone, who for all his longevity and solidarity, was never quite strong enough offensively to get over the hump.

Post #3 » by **Texas Chuck** » Wed Aug 8, 2012 12:45 pm

If you are talking about RS its Mailman ainec. 25/10/4 on 57%TS while being a good defender over 19 years while missing 5 games. Those are mindboggling career numbers.

If you are talking about playoffs its Dirk ainec. Malone's offensive effiency just pluments in the playoffs. Much like Admiral he puts up huge numbers against the lesser competetion in the RS whereas Dirk elevates his game against the best.

Since both guys are getting you into the playoffs every year and usually with a decent seed--give me the guy who performs once he gets there--Dirk

Post #4 » by **FJS** » Wed Aug 8, 2012 1:55 pm

Malone was less effective in playoffs, but he was still good enoug to be a 24.7 ppg, 10.7 rpg.

Was he a choker? Well, I remind Dirk be named a choker after his 2006 finals appareance.
For example, in 98 he dominated Duncan and Robinson, then O'Neal, and finally in the finals made an excellent effort.

In game 5 and 6 vs Bulls, he played really great (39 points and 31)

Dirk is too a 46FG% in playoffs. Sure he has scored more... but probably if he continue to play until 40 like Malone he will finish under 25.9 ppg who is averaging right now and probably under 46%fg too.

Karl Malone was a better player.
Better scorer, better rebounder, better deffense and better passer.

The Infamous1 · Post #5 » by **The Infamous1** » Wed Aug 8, 2012 1:59 pm

Dirk better playoff performer

ThunderDan9 · Post #6 » by **ThunderDan9** » Wed Aug 8, 2012 2:12 pm

The Mailman.
Overall, he was the better player.

AnSweR07 · Post #7 » by **AnSweR07** » Wed Aug 8, 2012 2:44 pm

ThunderDan9 wrote:The Mailman.
Overall, he was the better player.

Post #8 » by **Texas Chuck** » Wed Aug 8, 2012 2:48 pm

FJS wrote:Malone was less effective in playoffs, but he was still good enoug to be a 24.7 ppg, 10.7 rpg.

Was he a choker? Well, I remind Dirk be named a choker after his 2006 finals appareance.
For example, in 98 he dominated Duncan and Robinson, then O'Neal, and finally in the finals made an excellent effort.

In game 5 and 6 vs Bulls, he played really great (39 points and 31)

Dirk is too a 46FG% in playoffs. Sure he has scored more... but probably if he continue to play until 40 like Malone he will finish under 25.9 ppg who is averaging right now and probably under 46%fg too.

Karl Malone was a better player.
Better scorer, better rebounder, better deffense and better passer.

Uh did I ever say he was a choker? No. Did I say that taking RS into account its Malone ainec? Yes. I think Karl Malone is a helluva basketball player and yes he was pretty good in the playoffs and had big games at big times. And he was still putting up really big numbers in his late 30s.

But you cant really argue that there is a significant drop off from his elite RS stats whereas Dirk raises his to a new level. Im not sure why you think I am somehow disrespecting Mailman to point out he isnt the playoff performer Dirk is. I think the reason for this should be obvious. Dirk's offensive game is much more varied and advanced than Karl. Both were really the only strong scorer on their teams. The good defenses you face in the playoffs have a much easier time slowing down the more one-dimensional Malone.

lukekarts · Post #9 » by **lukekarts** » Wed Aug 8, 2012 4:05 pm

FJS wrote:Malone was less effective in playoffs, but he was still good enoug to be a 24.7 ppg, 10.7 rpg.

Was he a choker? Well, I remind Dirk be named a choker after his 2006 finals appareance.
For example, in 98 he dominated Duncan and Robinson, then O'Neal, and finally in the finals made an excellent effort.

In game 5 and 6 vs Bulls, he played really great (39 points and 31)

Dirk is too a 46FG% in playoffs. Sure he has scored more... but probably if he continue to play until 40 like Malone he will finish under 25.9 ppg who is averaging right now and probably under 46%fg too.

Karl Malone was a better player.
Better scorer, better rebounder, better deffense and better passer.

A few things I'd like to pick up on:

1. Dirk a choker in 2006? Yes the label was thrown out there at the time (due to losing a 2 game lead) but if you look at Dirk individually, you can't place much on him. That was hyperbole at the time - especially considering Miami were (unfairly IMO) the 'underdogs'. Dirk had one geniunely bad game of the 4 they lost. Dirk has had more moments in the playoffs where he has carried his team versus those when he has let them down.

2. General performance improvements in the playoffs:

Dirk
RS - 22.9 PPG (58.1% TS%), 8.3 Rebounds, 36.3 minutes, 23.6 PER
PS - 25.9 PPG (58.4% TS%), 10.3 rebounds, 41.3 minutes, 24.7 PER

Sure, that's not a detailed look, and his minutes increased, but so did his production, and efficiency, despite more minutes. Pretty impressive. You can take a more detailed look here: http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... tdi01.html if you wish. His peak years were brilliant, too.

Malone

RS - 25.0 PPG (23.9 TS%), 10.1 Rebounds, 37.2 minutes, 23.9 PER
PS - 24.7 PPG (52.6% TS%), 10.7 Rebounds, 41.0 minutes, 21.1 PER

What we see with Malone supports the majority of observations about his failings. He could not sustain his RS performances - in fact, he scored less, less efficiently, in more minutes.

3. Malone's 'choke' has been brought up a few times, but I'll explore it again. 89 Playoffs versus the Warriors - by face value Malone had his best series yet his team lost to a much lower seeded team - why? In 1992-93, his drop in production from the RS to the Seattle series is the key factor why they lost. 52.8% TS%, 4 TOV's.

4. Yes, Malone was a more impactful help defender, solid man defender & passer. Maybe surprisingly though, Dirk Nowitzki has always been a better defensive rebounder (24.6% vs 23.3% in the playoffs), and their TRB% is very similar.

5. Chicago Series for Malone - http://www.virtualsportsnetwork.com/for ... oke-Artist. Later in his career I also distinctly remember his 8 point game versus the Blazers which saw the Jazz lose the series. 3/16 from the field is a full on choke in an elimination game.

TheXFactor · Post #10 » by **TheXFactor** » Wed Aug 8, 2012 4:58 pm

Dirk.

You put 11 Dirk on one of those Utah teams, they get a ring

Post #11 » by **FJS** » Wed Aug 8, 2012 6:33 pm

Well, Karl Malone after 14 seasons, as Dirk, was a 26.5 PPG, 11,8 rpg, to make it fair.

Probably, Dirk will be getting worse and his numbers will be droping.

Josephpaul · Post #12 » by **Josephpaul** » Wed Aug 8, 2012 6:39 pm

The dirk runs seperations him from malone.

Post #13 » by **Texas Chuck** » Wed Aug 8, 2012 6:47 pm

FJS wrote:Well, Karl Malone after 14 seasons, as Dirk, was a 26.5 PPG, 11,8 rpg, to make it fair.

Probably, Dirk will be getting worse and his numbers will be droping.

I concede this. Almost no chance Dirk has 5-6 more years left in him like Mailman had at the end of his career. And Karl was nowhere near done when he retired either. No doubt he could have played several more years at a pretty productive level. His record of elite play for 2 decades should not ever be diminished in any way. REally remarkable.

Lightning25 · Post #14 » by **Lightning25** » Wed Aug 8, 2012 6:52 pm

lukekarts wrote:2. General performance improvements in the playoffs:

Dirk
RS - 22.9 PPG (58.1% TS%), 8.3 Rebounds, 36.3 minutes, 23.6 PER
PS - 25.9 PPG (58.4% TS%), 10.3 rebounds, 41.3 minutes, 24.7 PER

Sure, that's not a detailed look, and his minutes increased, but so did his production, and efficiency, despite more minutes. Pretty impressive. You can take a more detailed look here: http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... tdi01.html if you wish. His peak years were brilliant, too.

Malone

RS - 25.0 PPG (23.9 TS%), 10.1 Rebounds, 37.2 minutes, 23.9 PER
PS - 24.7 PPG (52.6% TS%), 10.7 Rebounds, 41.0 minutes, 21.1 PER

Are those the numbers of their RS and PS careers? or is it their primes? I think it would be more fair to use their numbers in their primes because everybody's averages drop down if they make it to the post-season as a young or old player with a more limited role on the team.

ahonui06 · Post #15 » by **ahonui06** » Wed Aug 8, 2012 7:59 pm

I'll take DIRK because he is a much better playoff performer compared to Karl Malone even when comparing both of their careers through 14 seasons. Malone's playoff numbers take a significant dip during the postseason while DIRK's numbers increase against better competition. DIRK is the more reliable postseason option so that is the deciding factor between these two guys. Both will play well in the regular season and lead your team to the postseason, but DIRK can continue to get it done when it matters most.

Malone RS through 14 seasons: 26 & 11 on 53-27-73 with 58 TS% and 53 eFG% (2x MVP, 12 consecutive All-NBA, 4x All-D team, 11x All-Star)
Malone PS through 14 season: 27 & 11 on 47-10-74 with 53 TS% and 47 eFG% (2 Finals Appearances, No Rings)

DIRK RS through 14 seasons: 23 & 8 on 48-38-88 with 58 TS% and 51 eFG% (MVP, 12 consecutive All-NBA, 11 consecutive All Star)
DIRK PS through 14 seasons: 26 & 10 on 46-38-89 with 58 TS% and 49 eFG% (2 Finals Appearances, 1 Title, 1 Finals MVP)

GetItDone · Post #16 » by **GetItDone** » Wed Aug 8, 2012 8:03 pm

This is a tough one, but i'll side with Dirk.

Just his ability to consistently carry a team with 50+ wins for over a decade and eventually leading a team to a title. I'll admit I use to think Dirk was overrated, but after looking more in depth at him, i've come around and he really is an all time great. As great as Malone was, give me Dirk.

lukekarts · Post #17 » by **lukekarts** » Wed Aug 8, 2012 8:34 pm

Lightning25 wrote:
lukekarts wrote:

Are those the numbers of their RS and PS careers? or is it their primes? I think it would be more fair to use their numbers in their primes because everybody's averages drop down if they make it to the post-season as a young or old player with a more limited role on the team.

Entire careers (or for the case of Dirk, career to date). It was more to emphasise the difference in their production in the RS to PS, rather than to directly compare their relative stats.

AshyLarry · Post #18 » by **AshyLarry** » Wed Aug 8, 2012 8:45 pm

im a dirk fan and a karl malone hater, but its malone. id still rather build around dirk though

ahonui06 · Post #19 » by **ahonui06** » Wed Aug 8, 2012 8:50 pm

AshyLarry wrote:im a dirk fan and a karl malone hater, but its malone. id still rather build around dirk though

If you rather build around DIRK then it's DIRK. :wink:

Lightning25 · Post #20 » by **Lightning25** » Wed Aug 8, 2012 8:57 pm

ahonui06 wrote:
AshyLarry wrote:im a dirk fan and a karl malone hater, but its malone. id still rather build around dirk though

If you rather build around DIRK then it's DIRK.

I don't think that is true. I would probably rather build around Hakeem Olajuwon instead of Magic Johnson but that doesn't mean Hakeem is better than Magic.

By the way, why do you always caps lock Dirk when you say his name?

lukekarts wrote:
Entire careers (or for the case of Dirk, career to date). It was more to emphasise the difference in their production in the RS to PS, rather than to directly compare their relative stats.

I think you should do one for primes too.

I think this comparison/debate is really about a better reliable shooter/scorer vs. a better all-around player. Is Malone's superior defense, rebounding, passing, etc. good enough to edge out Dirk's superior ability to create his own shot and his superior shooting ability?