Dolan/MSG losing corporate sponsors to Rox over Linsanity

[Pomme]

Knicks dodged a bullet by not throwing money at him. But right after dodging that bullet they took another one in the face in Raymond Felton. Might aswell just taken the first bullet.

[[GR]]

wealthy people don't go broke.

Because they're smart enough not to make decisions that cost them $100 mililon.

This little boy trying to be smart with me, please don't, it's not the road you want to take.

Uh, companies lose that monetary value every day. It's not about the money, but the percentages.

MSG stock is still right around $38 a share.

Don't ruin the narrative people want to regurgitate around here.

[HotRocks34]

I knew Lin was popular, but I wasn't expecting him to be mobbed like a member of the Beatles in Taiwan the other day. And this is just the beginning.

99.9% of the people mobbing Lin in Taiwan know zero about basketball. They think, based on the Linsanity hype, that Lin is some kind of superstar -- which he clearly isn't.

Remember: all of this "marketability" being discussed is predicated upon Lin performing at a dominant level on a consistent basis. Just being "good" isn't going to be enough.

Virtually no one talks about the fact that Linsanity had actually ended long before he got injured. Teams, starting with the Heat, had figured out Lin's weaknesses and were starting to exploit them. His shooting % was dropping like a stone, while his turnovers remained high. Not a good combination for a starting point guard.

If Lin turns out to be just an average, or below-average, player all of the hype will just go away. Does anyone see Yi Jianlian getting mobbed in China? No, not many people give a crap because he isn't a very good player. Remember Sun Yue? He played for the media-darling LA Lakers. Wasn't very good, and no one cares about him.

When Lin is being lit up next season by the elite guards in the WC, and if NY is successful in acquiring Chris Paul in free agency, then Dolan will look like a genius.

Dolan, in my recollection, has never been described as a "genius" by anyone, least of all by any Knicks fans. There is nothing in his track record, as I recall, to suggest that trend will be altered now. In fact, based on what we have seen with Dolan, the opposite is likely to be true.

Now, if CP3 ends up in New York, then Dolan will be able to lessen what appears to have been a gigantic mistake, particularly in terms of marketing and public relations, regarding Lin. We'll see if New York gets CP3. If I were Dolan, I would try to go all-out to get CP3 to cover my rear end on the Lin move.

Marketability is about dominance. But it's also about the PERCEPTION of dominance (past or present), or about future dominance people think will come. Or, in the case of someone like Lin, marketability could possibly just be about being able to 'hang' in a league that has had almost no truly solid players of Asian heritage that I can remember. So, Lin doesn't necessarily need to dominate, he may only need to seem to be consistently solid.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

http://bit.ly/P27I7z

What makes Lin even more attractive in Asia is that fans there have been starved of basketball stars who look like them since Yao Ming retired from the NBA in 2011.

Lin is following in Yao's footsteps, having signed a three-year, 25-million-dollar contract in July to play for the Houston Rockets - Yao's old team.

"Honestly, as great as Lebron James is, Asian consumers still maintain distance because at the end of the day, he's American," said Howard Lee, the research director at TNS, a market research firm.

"Jeremy Lin is Taiwanese. He still has extended family here. Now everyone is more interested in his story," he added.

Lin's humble personality also connects with Asian consumers.

"Asians always think they are the underdogs," Lee said. "Jeremy Lin was paid a low NBA salary and was under-appreciated, but he showed incredibly humility and continued to work hard. That really resonates with Asian values."

So, what Lee seems to be saying there is that there will be a natural Asian resonance with Lin. And if Lin does not do well in Houston, then he could well be seen as being 'held back' or 'held down' by the coach or management there, or by supposedly-selfish teammates. I can tell you from first hand experience, when Woodson was starting to sit Lin more for Baron Davis, this is how a number of Asian acquaintances of mine were seeing that situation. Take a guess how those people feel about Dolan, Carmelo and the Knicks now.

So, Lin doesn't need to be LeBron James to market products in Asia. Just as Yao didn't need to be the best center year after year to get voted as an All Star Game starter.

It is my understanding that Lin is of Han Chinese ancestry, as seems to be the case with the vast majority of Taiwanese persons. This is also the case in China. So, Lin seems likely to resonate there as well.

Two things to understand about how large the Asian basketball market is. One, there are something like 300 million people in China, alone, who like basketball. That is roughly the size of the entire USA population. Second, Yao's All Star Game vote totals, year after year.

There is no way to mitigate Lin's importance to the NBA or to whatever team he goes to. Basketball is entertainment as much as sport, and Lin is an asset of almost unmatchable worth. Right guy, right place, right time.

As I said before, I think the only way he doesn't meet the expectations for him is if he gets hurt, which is a possibility with that knee or knees. Other than that, he almost certainly will be given every possible opportunity to be a real player in the league, whether or not he ever earns "star" status based on his play.

I think of Lin at this point as similar to Reggie Bush at the NFL level. Bush has been an almost complete bust in the NFL, at least until last season (like his 7th pro season or so). Bush got paid big, particularly in endorsements, because of his star power and what he did in college, not what he did as a pro. Were teammates mad at this, guys who were clearly better as pros than Bush? I'm sure they were. Doesn't matter; the market dictates things. Bush got paid; Lin got paid. And Lin will likely continue to get paid, unless he gets hurt.

Linsanity was by far a greater stretch of playing than Reggie Bush has ever put together as a pro. I don't compare Lin to Tebow because Tebow took a joke team (1-4) and won a division title and a playoff game with them. Tebow can't throw the football, and probably never will be able to throw it, but he's a gamer and a winner. He earned his aura last year. Can he keep it up? I doubt it. But he earned what he got. And his teammates seem to love him wherever he goes, or most of them seem to, anyways.

Lin has talent. I think he had like the best lateral movement score at the NBA combine his year, and we all saw the poster block on Derrick Rose and the crossover dunk against the Wizards.

Lin seemed to be starting to wear down from the heavy minutes before the knee injury last year. He wasn't used to that workload. In fact, I think the knee had been hurting him for some time before the surgery.

Does he have weaknesses? Absolutely. Left hand, turnovers, etc. But he's only 23 (almost 24). Until last year, no one thought he could shoot. That improved. Can he improve more? I would think so. We'll find out.

Lin brings a different audience to the game, like Tiger does in golf. That is invaluable to any business, league or franchise. Houston knows that after having had Yao. I do not think Lin will ever be as good as Yao got to, but he doesn't have to be in order for everyone to win in this situation.

As far as Lin missing playoff time, he has said all the vets -- and I think supposedly even Dolan -- told him he should sit. Know what I hear now? A failed team (1-4 vs MIA in the playoffs) who needs a scapegoat trying to spin what happened. My guess is a lot of Asian fans feel the same way I do. In fact, I know many feel that way.

We'll see what happens. Best case scenario is Lin does well in Houston and New York gets CP3.

[poeman]

I do know American Express left MSG to the Brooklyn Nets. We are doing media business with the Nets & Amex for something in September

[blueNorange]

i think Lin will have a tremendous season just to dolan on Dolan. i mean who has more to prove in the coming season?

raymond felton

a guy who was solid his entire career who's categorized as a bum because he wasn't motivated or in shape for the blazers .. a team he didn't want to be on

felton will be a lock for 13 ppg, 3 rpg, and 7 apg this year

[Bertrob]

raymond felton

a guy who was solid his entire career who's categorized as a bum because he wasn't motivated or in shape for the blazers .. a team he didn't want to be on

felton will be a lock for 13 ppg, 3 rpg, and 7 apg this year

Solid? Thats too good of a word to describe Felton in Charlotte

[Tim Horton]

i think Lin will have a tremendous season just to dolan on Dolan. i mean who has more to prove in the coming season?

raymond felton

a guy who was solid his entire career who's categorized as a bum because he wasn't motivated or in shape for the blazers .. a team he didn't want to be on

felton will be a lock for 13 ppg, 3 rpg, and 7 apg this year

lol wut? isn't he on his 8th season scrubbing?

[East_Coast]

Marketability is about dominance. But it's also about the PERCEPTION of dominance, or future dominance. Or, in the case of someone like Lin, possibly just being able to 'hang' in a league that has had almost no truly solid players of Asian heritage that I can remember. So, Lin doesn't necessarily need to dominate, he may only need to seem to be consistently solid.

You obviously put some serious thought into your last post, and I can definitely respect that. However, I think you're just flat out wrong in a number of your assumptions.

1. The Knicks did not need a player of Lin's skillset. The team isn't looking for a shooting guard (particularly one who turns the ball over and is a defensive liability), but a pure point who can consistently get the ball to Melo and Amare -- both proven elite scorers. We'll see if Amare can get himself together, but Melo at 28 is clearly in his prime.

Lin would not have fit in with what Woodson and the Knicks want to do. That's why they went after Nash; that's why they signed Kidd; and that's why they signed Felton. They need a distributor, not a shooter. Its as simple as that. Basketball-wise, it made absolutely no sense to overpay to keep Lin. None.

2. As to your point about the perception of dominance, I completely disagree. You can't hide the numbers. Either a player is dominant, or they aren't. If Lin is continuously getting lit up by WC guards, who will all be gunning for him next season, then the perception, or any aura, of dominance will be gone.

There have been other Asian players in the league recently. What about Yi Jianlian or Sun Yue? Neither of them has received 1/10th the hype that Lin has, and its all due to the perception of his dominance. However, if Lin cannot continue to perpetuate that perception, he might as well be Sun Yue -- a player that the Asian market didn't embrace, and no one really cared about.

Bottom line: Lin can't just 'hang' in the league, he has to produce big numbers or he'll just end up being another Asian player who is ultimately viewed as not being good enough.

3. I have never seen a situation develop in the NBA where a player was looked upon as more valuable as a marketing tool than as a player. This is new ground, and I don't think a very solid one. Dolan was entirely right to pass on it, because as noted above, keeping Lin wouldn't have made sense for basketball reasons.

4. I'm very leery about people who wax poetic about the Asian market, like its some kind of unstoppable force. Yao was a definitely beneficiary of that market, but he was universally recognized as a player who possessed superstar skills. Lin is not in that category, nor were Yi Jianlian or Sun Yue. How will the market react if Lin is getting beat down every night, and the bloom is off the rose? I think it will dissipate very quickly. That's how life goes.

So, we'll see what happens. But there is no inevitability that Lin will continue to be a media darling. Just look at Tebow. This year is going to be brutal for him, because the perception now is that he can't get the job done.

[EGarrett]

Only in New York with the Knicks would headcases like JR and to a lesser extent Melo be miffed at Lin's presence in the locker room. Whatever resentment they had towards Lin would've been swept aside once they understood Lin was their best chance at earning that championship.

To me, Dolan made a purely monetary decision when he decided to go with Felton over Lin. To him, the drop-off right now between Felton and Lin was minimal. I agree, and in that sense I believe that Dolan made the right decision in grabbing Felton over Lin.

However, at the same time, for every 1 bad distraction Lin caused, he brought twice the fun and atmosphere in the Garden. He is certainly an exciting player to watch, whether or not you believe he is capable of becoming a go-to scorer does not take away from the fact that he glues people to their TV sets and non-fans to the NYK scene.

Yet Dolan believes the team is in a win-now mode, and for me the only reason why he could've let Lin go was because he truly, truly believed either a) Felton was better than Lin b) they were equal, or c) the drop-off was minimal.

And worst of all, I cannot help but feel sorry for Knicks fans when they watch Lin progress over the next decade. There is no doubt in my mind Lin will eventually surpass Felton. If that happens within the next 3 years, then Dolan would've made a terrible mistake.

No, no, no, no.

Yes yes yes. StyleD is right.

The locker room issue extended far beyond just Melo and JR, and had a lot to do with Lin's refusal to play at only "85%" in the playoffs. Not a good way to support your team by leaving them in the lurch.

This is a load of garbage. This was a guy who NEVER had a big NBA contract, and was guaranteed one as long as he didn't get injured. This means that by playing, he was fooling around with 30 million dollars when he didn't have anything to fall back on. More likely 80-100 million when you count endorsements and what he will earn over the rest of his career if he doesn't aggravate that injury. That's enough money to change his life, his family's life, and his children and grandchildren's lives for generations. You do not **** with that. PERIOD. It's not a diva decision.

You obviously have an idealized view of Lin's abilities that isn't backed up by reality. The Knicks do not need a "shoot first" point guard (with a low FG%). They need a pure point (Felton) who can get the ball to their proven scorers (Melo, Amare).

Right, I like that you gloss over the fact that they have a shoot-first small forward and shooting-guard who play no defense and are proven losers...and that Felton is fat and was a horrific cancer on Portland. You just declare that he won't create chemistry problems and will play well.

Lin isn't progressing anywhere. There's a reason that he went undrafted and was cut so many times.

Yes, because he was seen as undersized, not very athletic and unable to shoot. Then he put on muscle, measured out an inch taller than expected, developed a consistent jumper and improved the rest of his game. He quietly got rid of most of his weaknesses but no one noticed. He got a 28 point triple double in the D-league, and not by accident.

Once teams started to focus on his weaknesses, he wasn't good enough to overcome them.

Oh really? Why does "focusing on his weakness" always coincide with the games where his Melo and Amare are stinking up the joint and his touches and minutes get reduced? He actually had 19 points and 13 assists immediately after the Miami game where he was supposedly exposed. And his rate of production didn't change much, just the amount of time and opportunity he got.

Wait until he has to go up against the elite guards in the WC on a nightly basis. Lin is lucky he's in Houston. They'll be more gentle when he continuously gets exposed for the good role player that he is.

We'll see homeboy. You sure haven't shown that you know what you're talking about.

The problem with some posters on this board is that they're not looking critically enough at Lin as a basketball player. There's a propensity to idealize him based on Linsanity, but that only encompassed a few games. He was in the process of being exposed when he got injured.

Your justifications for why they should cut him are nonsensical. You didn't mention a thing about the incredible weaknesses and risks of the guys they replaced him with, that's called a Nirvana fallacy, and it's an extremely dishonest and/or ignorant thing to do.

You'll see next season what his true worth is. The Knicks will ultimately be justified in letting him go. He's more of a marketing show than a player.

They already dropped 90-100 mill in stock value and are losing sponsors and fans rapidly. Which should matter since they are a business. But like I said, we'll see.

[blueNorange]

i think Lin will have a tremendous season just to dolan on Dolan. i mean who has more to prove in the coming season?

raymond felton

a guy who was solid his entire career who's categorized as a bum because he wasn't motivated or in shape for the blazers .. a team he didn't want to be on

felton will be a lock for 13 ppg, 3 rpg, and 7 apg this year

lol wut? isn't he on his 8th season scrubbing?

13.7
3.3
6.7

oh my the horror, it's not like that's exactly what the knicks will need this upcoming season

[spaceballer]

Now, if CP3 ends up in New York, then Dolan will be able to lessen what appears to have been a gigantic mistake, particularly in terms of marketing and public relations, regarding Lin. We'll see if New York gets CP3. If I were Dolan, I would try to go all-out to get CP3 to cover my rear end on the Lin move.

No realistic chance of CP3 in New York this year or next. Knicks are maxed out and have no free cap room to sign him directly. And they can't accept him in a S&T next off-season if it will end with them being over the apron (which they will be).

The Clippers have no reason to trade him to NY by the deadline, since they intend to re-sign him. CP3 has no leverage to force a Denver/Melo type trade or extend-and-trade to NY, since he is not able to threaten to sign directly with the Knicks in the off-season (unless CP3 is willing to take Minimum or $3M taxpayer's MLE).

And after re-signing him, the Clippers are not allowed to trade him until the following Dec./Jan.15th (Dec. vs. Jan. depends on whether they used bird rights or free cap space to re-sign him). That means the Knicks can't get CP3 at all next year.

The Knicks know this, which is why they gave Felton a 4yr contract (including player option).

The chances of CP3 forcing himself onto the Knicks is about the same as the chances of Howard now being able to force himself onto the Nets. Less, actually, since the Knicks are even more capped out with few trade assets.

The Knicks could just wait till CP3 is almost 40yrs old and then sign him to a 3yr contract like they did with the other over-the-hill guys on their roster.

[mjba]

Marketability is about dominance. But it's also about the PERCEPTION of dominance, or future dominance. Or, in the case of someone like Lin, possibly just being able to 'hang' in a league that has had almost no truly solid players of Asian heritage that I can remember. So, Lin doesn't necessarily need to dominate, he may only need to seem to be consistently solid.

You obviously put some serious thought into your last post, and I can definitely respect that. However, I think you're just flat out wrong in a number of your assumptions.

1. The Knicks did not need a player of Lin's skillset. The team isn't looking for a shooting guard (particularly one who turns the ball over and is a defensive liability), but a pure point who can consistently get the ball to Melo and Amare -- both proven elite scorers. We'll see if Amare can get himself together, but Melo at 28 is clearly in his prime.

Lin would not have fit in with what Woodson and the Knicks want to do. That's why they went after Nash; that's why they signed Kidd; and that's why they signed Felton. They need a distributor, not a shooter. Its as simple as that. Basketball-wise, it made absolutely no sense to overpay to keep Lin. None.

2. As to your point about the perception of dominance, I completely disagree. You can't hide the numbers. Either a player is dominant, or they aren't. If Lin is continuously getting lit up by WC guards, who will all be gunning for him next season, then the perception, or any aura, of dominance will be gone.

There have been other Asian players in the league recently. What about Yi Jianlian or Sun Yue? Neither of them has received 1/10th the hype that Lin has, and its all due to the perception of his dominance. However, if Lin cannot continue to perpetuate that perception, he might as well be Sun Yue -- a player that the Asian market didn't embrace, and no one really cared about.

Bottom line: Lin can't just 'hang' in the league, he has to produce big numbers or he'll just end up being another Asian player who is ultimately viewed as not being good enough.

3. I have never seen a situation develop in the NBA where a player was looked upon as more valuable as a marketing tool than as a player. This is new ground, and I don't think a very solid one. Dolan was entirely right to pass on it, because as noted above, keeping Lin wouldn't have made sense for basketball reasons.

4. I'm very leery about people who wax poetic about the Asian market, like its some kind of unstoppable force. Yao was a definitely beneficiary of that market, but he was universally recognized as a player who possessed superstar skills. Lin is not in that category, nor were Yi Jianlian or Sun Yue. How will the market react if Lin is getting beat down every night, and the bloom is off the rose? I think it will dissipate very quickly. That's how life goes.

So, we'll see what happens. But there is no inevitability that Lin will continue to be a media darling. Just look at Tebow. This year is going to be brutal for him, because the perception now is that he can't get the job done.

you sound like Stephen A Smith w/ this stuff about the locker room being upset that he wouldn't play at '85%' in the playoffs.

no Knicks fan can think this was a good decision. you're capped out so the 'cap-space' is useless. absolute worst case scenario you trade him and let someone else take the ^above^ risks

[magnumt]

I think they lost their biggest sponsor (American Express) to the Nets too.

You knew that was going to happen with Lin though. He's like the Tebow of basketball right now.

MSG's biggest sponsor is not AMEX but CHASE (who signed a record $30Mil/Yr deal with them I believe).

--Mags

[East_Coast]

They already dropped 90-100 mill in stock value and are losing sponsors and fans rapidly. Which should matter since they are a business. But like I said, we'll see.

Typical. People who talk about other people not knowing what they're talking about usually don't have a clue themselves.

You know what the MSG stock price was during the height of Linsanity, when he torched the Lakers? $31.15.

The highest the stock has gone for this year? $38.91 on July 3rd.

Knicks declined to match the Lin offer on July 17.

Do you know what the stock price is now? $37.99

So this "argument" that the Garden stock "dropped 90-100 million" is nothing but a huge lie. Go look at the numbers instead of just posting crap.

As to the rest of your post, we'll see what happens next year.

[DanTown8587]

The thing about Lin is if a bunch of American's are having the discussion about whether or not NY should have kept him, how do you feel that a large amount of Asians feel about it? Lin, whether truly deserved or not, is a top marketer in a massively growing market. The Knicks decided to end that relationship and when you consider enough of what has been said, there is a potential to scapegoat Carmelo and the Knicks. Remember, the market that you're talking about isn't Knicks fans.

[EGarrett]

They already dropped 90-100 mill in stock value and are losing sponsors and fans rapidly. Which should matter since they are a business. But like I said, we'll see.

Typical. People who talk about other people not knowing what they're talking about usually don't have a clue themselves.

You know what the MSG stock price was during the height of Linsanity, when he torched the Lakers? $31.15.

The highest the stock has gone for this year? $38.91 on July 3rd.

Knicks declined to match the Lin offer on July 17.

Do you know what the stock price is now? $37.99

So this "argument" that the Garden stock "dropped 90-100 million" is nothing but a huge lie. Go look at the numbers instead of just posting crap.

I don't know what planet you must be on to think total share value is equivalent to the price an individual share. Here are some pictures to help you.

[East_Coast]

you sound like Stephen A Smith w/ this stuff about the locker room being upset that he wouldn't play at '85%' in the playoffs.

no Knicks fan can think this was a good decision. you're capped out so the 'cap-space' is useless. absolute worst case scenario you trade him and let someone else take the ^above^ risks

You know why I believe SAS? Because he's in the locker room talking to players, and gets the truth. You didn't hear anyone refute what he said. Also, I grew up in NY and lots of my friends who are long-time fans of the team were saying the same thing about Lin not playing.

It was undoubtedly a smart business decision on his part, but it didn't endear him to the Knicks locker room.

As to your last point, if the Knicks had re-signed Lin with that poison pill third year, there's no way they could have traded him. Who would be dumb enough to do that, except Houston? And if the Knicks had matched the offer, I seriously doubt if the Rockets would have traded for Lin.

[East_Coast]

I don't know what planet you must be on to think total share value is equivalent to the price an individual share. Here are some pictures to help you.

You fail. Instead of finding customized graphics that someone else put together -- which end sometime in July -- why don't you show the numbers up until the current date?

Share price is an integral component of total share value, along with stock volume.

You need to look at all the numbers, not just those tailored to "prove" your point.

The fact is that MSG was just fine before Lin, and will be just fine without him. There will be no great loss of fans, and the season tickets will continue to sell out.

[Tim Horton]

why are Knicks fans still butthurt about him leaving. they didn't offer anything in the first place. reads like Stephen A has multiple accounts.

[omerome]

why are Knicks fans still butthurt about him leaving. they didn't offer anything in the first place. reads like Stephen A has multiple accounts.

Who says I'm butthurt?

Losing Lin isn't the end of the world.