Predict the Eastern Conference Standings

[hands11]

First nba.com power rankings are out....

http://www.nba.com/2012/news/powerranki ... ef:nbahpt1

Wizards are 27th.

Washington (20-46)
Pace: 95.1 (7), Off: 97.8 (28), Def: 103.8 (24)
John Wall may be the player to watch in the East this season. No, the Wizards probably aren't a playoff team either way, but a significant improvement from Wall could change the Wizards' outlook. Not only must he improve his jumper and his defense, but he's got to make his teammates better.

Before he was drafted I said Wall is overrated.

If I were GM of the Wizards I would give Wall all of preseason and the first 5 games before making a long-term decision on his future. If his jumper doesn't look markedly improved from day one, I would canvas the entire NBA and make the best trade possible. All the people who say he's a superstar are tripping on acid as far as I am concerned.

Do his stats look somewhat like Westbrooks' first two seasons? Yes they do! Does he have al the tools to be a good defender? Yes, he does! Is he really fast and an elite passer in a full court game? No doubt, yes he is. Does he execute well in half court? No. Is he good relative to every other PG in the league? Rondo, Paul, Rose, Deron Williams, Westbrooks, Nash, are clearly much better. Of his peers, John Wall doesn't dominate Rubio, Lawson,Jennings, Irving, Holiday, Isaiah Thomas, Darren Collison. Matter of fact, I've seen each of those guys and Jose Calderon get the better of John Wall. Among that second tier of players John Wall MIGHT be above average. A few guys give Jeremy Lin a lot of trouble, but John Wall makes Lin look like an All Star. Guys like Mario Chalmers at least play consistently good defense. John Wall doesn't do that yet.

If I could get Iguodala for Ariza/Okafor, along with Holiday plus a couple draft picks; I would trade Wall once it becomes clear he can't shoot and has not made the leap.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

hands, these are your kind of fans.

[Wizardspride]

Before he was drafted I said Wall is overrated.

If I were GM of the Wizards I would give Wall all of preseason and the first 5 games before making a long-term decision on his future. If his jumper doesn't look markedly improved from day one, I would canvas the entire NBA and make the best trade possible. All the people who say he's a superstar are tripping on acid as far as I am concerned.

Do his stats look somewhat like Westbrooks' first two seasons? Yes they do! Does he have al the tools to be a good defender? Yes, he does! Is he really fast and an elite passer in a full court game? No doubt, yes he is. Does he execute well in half court? No. Is he good relative to every other PG in the league? Rondo, Paul, Rose, Deron Williams, Westbrooks, Nash, are clearly much better. Of his peers, John Wall doesn't dominate Rubio, Lawson,Jennings, Irving, Holiday, Isaiah Thomas, Darren Collison. Matter of fact, I've seen each of those guys and Jose Calderon get the better of John Wall. Among that second tier of players John Wall MIGHT be above average.

I'd give Wall longer than you would CCJ but I ABSOLUTELY agree with the premise of your post.

Right now this guy is just an athlete and doesn't do one thing "elite" imo.

Hell, for all the ridicule that Gilbert got by from some (hands11 ), at least he was ELITE at something.

[The Consiglieri]

If I were GM of the Wizards I would give Wall all of preseason and the first 5 games before making a long-term decision on his future.

Oh really? Would you do the same if Fatboy Cousins is looking like crap after 5 games? My guess is that you wouldn't. As a matter of fact, I'm sure you'd come up with a bunch of excuses for it like you did last season when Cousins looked like crap.

Considering Fatboy can do one thing better than almost anyone in the NBA I would know he's already better than Wall, no matter how I proceed.

Cousins is an elite rebounder. If you don't believe me, look at the number 1 in the NBA on the link below.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/demarcus_ ... stats.html

Demarcus was #6 in double doubles, besides being #1 in offensive rebounds both on the season and per game. He also ranked in blocks, steals, and efficiency, TGW. Fat boy had a 41 point game. He had two 20 rebound games. I remember folks saying they wouldn't draft him and that he'd be a bust.

In fairness, Wall has some impressive stats in assists, steals, free throws, and efficiency (though that not as high as Cousins). Wall has had a 38 point game and his fair share of double doubles (but not as many as Cousins). John owns turnovers, but Demarcus is up there, too. Cousins owns fouls. Both are talented, young players who need to refine their games.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/john_wall ... stats.html

TGW, I would trade either player if it would make my team better.

CCJ,

Wall has worked with Chucker Young, and Chucker Crawford at 2, Chris Singleton and random boddies as 3, Baltche, Booker, and Ves at 4, and Idiot McGee, Seraphin at Center for his two years in the NBA. You'd be hard pressed to find an elite PG in NBA history surrounded by more stupidity ever, that collection of hacks, chuckers, and ----wits was easily the lowest BBIQ team in the history of the NBA. It was freaking total and complete horse----. Wall's basically spent about 10 games playing and practicing with professionals in his career, and virtually all of those professionals were below league average starters at their positions at the time.

I have a problem with his jumper, and I cover my eyes if I see him even thinking about pulling up for a 3. He needs to improve his shot. But that's an issue with a lot of young PG's not the least of which is Kidd, and much like Kidd, Wall has shown the potential as a youngster to be an elite pass first PG in this league if his team could simply take advantage of his assets. For the first two years of his career the answer to this question as been resounding laughter rather than a simple no.

Give the kid time. Cousins is an idiot and a cancer. I know you love him, and I liked him a ton too, and viewed him and Favors as the two highest ceiling talents in the '10 draft, not Wall. But we needed Wall more than another dumb, me first cancer like Cousins, or a long term project like Favors. That's why we took him.

There's not a chance in hell that he's going to be traded period. Zero. The only way he may ever be moved is if he pulls a Dwight Howard, and demands extradition from his long personal nightmare.

As the grantland article on Wall suggested, there are serious flaws in the kids game, for now, as it didnt really suggest, there's been no means by which Wall could ever be fairly evaluated so far because the team was one of the worst train wrecks in Washington sports history from 2009-2011 excluding anything Dan Snyder, and Abe Pollin directed. Give the kid a shot w/some real freaking teammates. Even great point guards that made sub par talent better, kids like Chris Paul, and Deron Williams, were never saddled with anything remotely as bad as Wall was, because even if Paul and Williams had bad teams, they didnt play for monstrously selfish, and mindnumbingly record setting stupidity filled squads as Wall was.

The grantland article from eight months ago for those that didnt see it:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/732 ... nba-season

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Ten games? That is simply incorrect, Consiglieri.

Wall's first game he was coached by Flip Saunders. The same man who coached Chauncey Billups, Sam Cassell, and Terrell Brandon. John Wall came to a team that acquired Kirk Hinrich. Gilbert Arenas was on the team, still. If nothing else, John saw Kirk work on defense and he saw the rotation, footwork, and release Gilbert displayed on offense. While I agree John hasn't had good teammates, he has been around mentors like Roger Mason and Sam Cassell.

Consiglieri, you can make a lot of excuses for John Wall, but the truth is from year one to year two his 3pt shot went from .296 to .071. From year one to year two his assists went down and his turnovers slightly up. Wall got better, but he didn't make the leap, Consiglieri.

To say he can't be fairly evaluated after 135 games is pretty dubious. I know he can't shoot and so does anyone else who watches that jumper go up. I said I would look at his preseason and his first 5 games and canvas the entire league for trade offers. By looking at the entirety of what is offered, i wouldn't rush to trade him. Also, I wouldnt' be looking if I didn't think that after this full summer he didn't get much better.

Consigleiri, you're right there is not a chance he will be traded. By that same token this team stinks for a reason. They don't make shrewd moves and they don't think out of the box. They do not assess talent well and they don't move decisively in ways that add value affordably with emergent talent.

What they do is what you're doing: Have a closed mind that their young talent is as good as it gets.

I know better.

DISCLAIMER: All of that changes if Wall makes the leap. All of that changes if Beal does prove to be the good teammate Wall never had--and it makes Wall better as result. It could happen. I started this whole trade Wall discourse only on the supposition that he does not improve. I think his perceived value is currently way higher than his actual value. If he plays well this fall, all I have argued becomes a moot point.

[DCZards]

To say he can't be fairly evaluated after 135 games is pretty dubious. I know he can't shoot and so does anyone else who watches that jumper go up. I said I would look at his preseason and his first 5 games and canvas the entire league for trade offers. By looking at the entirety of what is offered, i wouldn't rush to trade him. Also, I wouldnt' be looking if I didn't think that after this full summer he didn't get much better.

Sorry, CCJ, but that's a terrible idea. First of all, you're essentially asking Wall to go from a mediocre shooter to a good shooter overnight. Then, if that doesn't happen, you're suggesting that 2 weeks into the season the Zards put their former #1 overall pick and the face of the franchise on the trading block, which would show a tremendous lack of patience and loyalty on the part of the Zards, wreak havoc on team chemistry and probably destroy Wall's self confidence.

Yes, Wall must absolutely become a better shooter, but it's far to early to give up on a kid with the physical talents--and overall upside--that Wall possesses, especially one who plays the most important position on the court.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Right now, Kyrie Irving for John Wall straight up is a trade Cleveland wouldn't make.

My big picture is that Wall is the most valuable asset on the Wizards. If it turns out his ceiling is above average player, who might appear in one or two all star games; then he is a player who you can trade and upgrade the Wizards. My idea isn't terrible at all, DCZ. If he doesn't step up, three years is enough time to get a pretty good idea of what kind of player John Wall is.

But don't worry, it isn't going to happen. Wall will get a max deal from the Wizards no matter what.

PS Here is the best counter to my argument I can find:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... dja01.html

Jason Kidd's first three seasons as a Maverick, even up until he was two years older than Wall, he was not much better if at all better than Wall is now. When he played on a better Phoenix team, his numbers blew up when Kidd was aged 24.

[verbal8]

Worst case scenario is John Wall gets injured. I agree that the Wizards could get in trouble if a key player suffers injury but the reality is they will only be a successful team only when Wall improves his jump shot and decision making especially in crunch time.

I am not hoping it happens at all, but Wall being injured would not be the end of the world. I think they would be bad enough to get another lotto pick and would have a core of Wall, Beal, the pick and probably Seraphin to build around. It also would probably get EG fired because it would expose the weaknesses of the roster.

I think the worst thing that could happen would be John Wall being average, the other young guys to not improve much and winning 30-35 games. That isn't bad enough to get help in the draft and it takes a significant improvement to even be a play-off team.

[Ruzious]

Right now, Kyrie Irving for John Wall straight up is a trade Cleveland wouldn't make.

So what? There probably aren't even 5 players in the entire world that Cleveland would trade Irving for.

My big picture is that Wall is the most valuable asset on the Wizards. If it turns out his ceiling is above average player, who might appear in one or two all star games; then he is a player who you can trade and upgrade the Wizards. My idea isn't terrible at all, DCZ. If he doesn't step up, three years is enough time to get a pretty good idea of what kind of player John Wall is.

So the first 5 games of the season will tell you what Wall's ceiling is? 3 years doesn't equal 2 years plus 5 games. And by your logic, shouldn't you not even count the games he played under Flip Saunders - so he's really played less than a season?

[GhostsOfGil]

I have a problem with his jumper, and I cover my eyes if I see him even thinking about pulling up for a 3. He needs to improve his shot. But that's an issue with a lot of young PG's not the least of which is Kidd, and much like Kidd, Wall has shown the potential as a youngster to be an elite pass first PG in this league if his team could simply take advantage of his assets. For the first two years of his career the answer to this question as been resounding laughter rather than a simple no.

Perfectly said. Im not really concerned with his offensive weaknesses. Wall shows flashes of true dominance when passing and letting the offense come to him. Like Consiglieri said, the team needs to take advantage of his assets which hasn't been the case in his first two seasons.

[TheKingOfVa360]

I have a problem with his jumper, and I cover my eyes if I see him even thinking about pulling up for a 3. He needs to improve his shot. But that's an issue with a lot of young PG's not the least of which is Kidd, and much like Kidd, Wall has shown the potential as a youngster to be an elite pass first PG in this league if his team could simply take advantage of his assets. For the first two years of his career the answer to this question as been resounding laughter rather than a simple no.

Perfectly said. Im not really concerned with his offensive weaknesses. Wall shows flashes of true dominance when passing and letting the offense come to him. Like Consiglieri said, the team needs to take advantage of his assets which hasn't been the case in his first two seasons.

I agree. CCJ sounds like he's on bath salts. No way are we going to trade the face of our franchise who's only 21 yrs old and has played good for two seasons. Wall will improve and be an All star year in and year out

[Nivek]

First of all, you're essentially asking Wall to go from a mediocre shooter to a good shooter overnight.

Wall isn't a mediocre shooter -- he's terrible. It would be wonderful if he could get to mediocre.

Yes, Wall must absolutely become a better shooter, but it's far to early to give up on a kid with the physical talents--and overall upside--that Wall possesses, especially one who plays the most important position on the court.

Agreed. Wiz have him on his rookie deal for two more years (this one plus the 4th year option), and then they have the right to match any offers he receives. No need to move as quickly as CCJ suggests.

[Nivek]

I have a problem with his jumper, and I cover my eyes if I see him even thinking about pulling up for a 3. He needs to improve his shot.

I think it would have been better for him (and the team) last season for him to shoot the 3pt shot more frequently even if he was hitting just .296 on them like he did his rookie year.

Last season, he attempted 289 long 2s at a .291 percentage. To get the same effective field goal percentage, he'd have needed to hit just .194 of 3pt attempts. If he shot .296 from 3pt range (which he did as a rookie), his efg on those shots would have been .444, which would have been significantly better than the .291 he got on long 2s.

The Wiz would have been better of with Wall shooting 25% on 3pt attempts than they were with him shooting 30% on long 2s.

[The Consiglieri]

Very good point Nivek. There's something remarkably inefficient and idiotic with taking tons of long 2's. There's absolutely no purpose or value to them.

As to CCJ's counterpoints to me, I agree that he's stunk at shooting, and thus far shown no improvement, but in the end, we drafted him to be a pass first point guard, and the best assets he brought to the table were completely wasted for yes, 135 or so games. He had a collection of morons to play with his entire career so far. Just a massive collection of dolts with no BBIQ whatsoever. For whatever reason you seem to have no interest in seeing how well he'll play with a team that has a high BBIQ, it's first ever 2 guard that isn't a me first idiot, but rather a super high BBIQ, coach on the court whose always in the right place and always makes the right decision. Our center and our 4 will be high BBIQ workers with upside.

Its the first time in his career the team around him isn't the worst BBIQ team ever, but actually rather a solid or above average group. I notice that in your critique you don't mention any of the reasoning I used, but fixated on his shot. I agree his shot sucks, i cede that. I agree to with the premise that it's probably never going to be better than adequate if everything goes right. But I also believe that we didn't draft wall to be a score first point guard like Kyrie Irving, we drafted him to be a pass first point guard like Paul (though obviously he isn't in Paul's league). And everything Wall brings to the table, all of his assets? Could not be utilized for squat in his first two seasons because we had clowns like Nick Young, Crawford, McGee, and Baltche manning 3 of the 4 starting positions for him to work with, and league worst talent at the 3. How on earth was he ever going to look good with that garbage? No way in hell. Now he'll have legit help with quality BBIQ at the 5, at the 4, and at the 2, and a sub par, but decent option at the 3. Wonder if his assist #'s are gonna go up, wonder if his assist to TO numbers will improve as well. Might guy is it will be substantial improvement. I still think we'll suck. But I also think we'll be better and we'll finally be utilizing him properly, and seeing what he can bring when he actually has help.

He still has plenty of work to do, and his shot is totally jacked to this point and it's not acceptable. Happily, at least the talk this offseason is that he's working his butt off on it. I also really was happy to see him in Vegas with Beal. He didnt have to be there, but he was. Wall has been pretty direct and honest about how great it is to see where the team is going and you don't have to think much to realize what he means. And if he's been as honest as he has, and players are never that honest in criticizing former teammates, than you know the situation with McGee, Baltche and Young was freaking awful.

We could trade him, as you say, but we'd get 50 cents on the dollar, and we'd get a 2nd/3rd tier piece with a mediocre ceiling, there isn't a chance in hell it would be worth what Wall is worth as is, let alone what his ceiling actually is. I dont really get why you give Cousins a free pass in being a Derrick Coleman styled cancer, exactly what we don't need, but don't give Wall any benefit of the doubt at all when he's a great teammate, has good BBIQ, and is a worker and not a cancer or coach killer. It's odd to me. I wouldnt have an issue with going after Cousins (though I fully understand why we didnt after the last three years of clowns and me first idiots), especially with Wall to keep him in line, but I'd still take Wall over Cousins because he's a much better long term investment. Cousins will play on many teams in his career, noone will ever be able to stomach him longer than a single contract, he's guaranteed to be moved constantly, and that's not a building block, that's just a problem, maybe a talented problem, but a problem none the less.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Right now, Kyrie Irving for John Wall straight up is a trade Cleveland wouldn't make.

So what? There probably aren't even 5 players in the entire world that Cleveland would trade Irving for.

The point is when people like you said don't even think about trading Wall in the past, I thought I would definitely trade Wall for Irving (before Irving ever played in the NBA) PLUS a pick.

You didn't see it then. You don't see it now, Ruz.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

All the people who say he's a superstar are tripping on acid as far as I am concerned.

This is like saying that all the people who breathe fire and have wings are dragons. Or are the people who are filled with straw and impaled on a stake in the middle of a cornfield are strawmen.

Absolutely no one is saying that Wall is a superstar. Complete fabrication and strawman.

No one? And you say that in absolute terms ...

If you want to be a jerk about it and say I am fabricating, then stay there, willb. Stay right there.

My response was intended to reflect that IMO people who think Wall is an untradeable superstar in the making are way off. How you took it, willb, is more a reflection on you and where your head is. If you think that way about me, fine. Your perception is yours.

[miller31time]

CCJ, you're right that Wall should be considered "tradeable" in the sense that any and every player should be. If a trade is on the table that makes your team better, you have to explore that.

Irving is a lot better than what I thought he'd be and he and Wall are certainly close in terms of immediate impact and what they have done for their teams. Kyrie, pretty easily (IMO) is the better player right now.

However, I believe Wall's potential far exceeds that of Irving's and what he brings to the table is more important as well (floor general over scoring combo guard).

Irving will be a really good scorer for a really long time and probably a good all-around talent (good passer, pretty good defender, etc) but John Wall can become absolutely dominant in those aspects. Add a mid-range jumper to that list and you have a player who can be monstrous.

Will be become that? Maybe, maybe not. The answer isn't as clear as we thought upon drafting the kid. But for a team that's as starved for franchise talent as this one, I feel like you have to take that chance.

[Ruzious]

Right now, Kyrie Irving for John Wall straight up is a trade Cleveland wouldn't make.

So what? There probably aren't even 5 players in the entire world that Cleveland would trade Irving for.

The point is when people like you said don't even think about trading Wall in the past, I thought I would definitely trade Wall for Irving (before Irving ever played in the NBA) PLUS a pick.

You didn't see it then. You don't see it now, Ruz.

That's pretty said if that was your point. When I've said there's no point in your numerous Wall trades, I've said its because there was no chance he was going to traded, so why waste your time. I mostly didn't care if your Wall trades were good or bad, because we all knew there was no chance they'd happen. The DC City council literally (not figuratively) rolled out the red carpet for him and announced it was John Wall Day. Then he had a good rookie year. There was no chance he was getting traded.

[closg00]

*bump* I saw that most people had Philly out of the playoffs. Post-trade you have to put Philly ahead of the Wizards.

[pancakes3]

ah but the dwight trade giveth and the dwight trade taketh away. we're certainly ahead of the magic now.