Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki

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Who do you guys have ranked higher in your all-time list?

Malone
32
60%
Nowitzki
21
40%
 
Total votes: 53

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Re: Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki 

Post#61 » by ahonui06 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:39 pm

kasino wrote:I didn't add up the games I averaged the % and is at .675% for their 12 years
Utah winning average is 98-01 is .679% for their 13 years


Why are you only going to 2001 for Utah? Malone lead Utah to the postseason until 2003. We are using all of DIRK's playoff years during his 50 game winning stretch so we are going to use all of Malone's playoff years as well.

Jazz won 792 games out of a possible 1,198 games from 1989 to 2003. That's a 0.6611 winning percentage.

Mavs won 656 ganes out of a possible 968 games from 2001 to 2012. That's a 0.6777 winning percentage.

kasino wrote:Dirk didn't have a all-star but a much deeper team that we can all agree


No. DIRK didn't have much deeper teams than Malone. Malone was playing with a prime Stockton throughout his career and even had a DPOY candidate in Mark Eaton in his early years. Malone's teammates were just as good if not better than DIRK's on an annual basis. And most importantly, I will reiterate that Malone had prime Stockton throughout his entire career in Utah.

kasino wrote:If you look at my first post about Malone's scoring you will find I put 26.3, you rounded it off to 27 so my math isn't terrible your flopping what you want used
and still Malone produced more then Dirk


You just don't understand basic concepts and you are changing what years you use every post.

From 1989 to 2003 Malone averaged 26.3PPG on 20.6 shots per game.
From 2001 to 2012 DIRK averaged 25.9PPG on 18.4 shots per game.

The difference is DIRK's effiency didn't plummet during the postseason. It remained the exact same at 58.4 TS% and DIRK also took 2.2 less shots per game and only scored 0.4PPG.

What don't you understand? DIRK is a better scorer in the playoffs than Malone. He does the same more efficiently. If DIRK averaged 20.6 shots per game like Malone he would definitely average more than 26.3.
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Re: Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki 

Post#62 » by ahonui06 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:45 pm

Woodsanity wrote:^The Mailman was pitiful in the playoffs.

AnaheimRoyale wrote:
The 2011 Mavs and 2003 Spurs were very similar situations. Franchise player leading his to a title despite all odds and beating the defending champion Lakers along the way.

Except 03 Duncan didn't have anywhere near the help Dirk did, and 2011 Kobe didn't have prime Shaq on his team... so yeh, aside from those gaping differences, they were similar situations.

Lolwut? Neither of them had amazing amounts of help.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2011.html
I fail to see how Duncan had way less help. :roll:


Yes and Duncan didn't need to challenge 2 all-stars in the WCF or 3 all-stars in the NBA Finals with two of them being Top 10 players in the NBA.

I'd still say the runs are similar.
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Re: Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki 

Post#63 » by AnaheimRoyale » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:15 am

You obviouisly have no understanding of the amounts of help on the 03 Spurs v.s the 11 Mavs. If you insist, I will go over it at length, but you're just going to look silly.
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Re: Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki 

Post#64 » by QuantMisleads » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:33 am

Malone is the better player. The reason Malone didn't do as well in the playoffs is the way the Utah offense was structured. It was top heavy, with the other players lacking the necessary skill to help push them over the top, and that goes for Stockton as well who offensively just didn't shoot enough. Everyone knows it all went through Malone, and stopping one man is easier than stopping a team. Another reason why his numbers dipped is that Malone played similar minutes to what he did in the regular season. This is also why Wilt Chamberlain's numbers dipped, for these two reasons, especially the latter, because he played all 48 minutes no matter the occasion.

but respect goes out to Dirk for sure
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Re: Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki 

Post#65 » by ahonui06 » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:34 am

AnaheimRoyale wrote:You obviouisly have no understanding of the amounts of help on the 03 Spurs v.s the 11 Mavs. If you insist, I will go over it at length, but you're just going to look silly.


Please go right ahead and tell me how great DIRK's supporting cast was in 2011.
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Re: Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki 

Post#66 » by Texas Chuck » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:10 am

ahonui06 wrote:
AnaheimRoyale wrote:You obviouisly have no understanding of the amounts of help on the 03 Spurs v.s the 11 Mavs. If you insist, I will go over it at length, but you're just going to look silly.


Please go right ahead and tell me how great DIRK's supporting cast was in 2011.


Chandler > Admiral
Trix > Bowen
Parker > Kidd
Capt Jack > Stevenson
JET > Manu
Malik >Haywood/Ian
JJB > Speedy
Kerr = Peja

So yeah a slight edge to Dallas' cast. But when you look at the opponents its not even close:

Portland = Phoenix
3x champs LAL > 2x champs LAL
OKC with full team > Dal missing Dirk for 3 games
Miami > Nets

And those last 2 series arent even close.

Duncan's 03 achievement is amazing. Its by no measure better than Dirk's 2011
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Re: Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki 

Post#67 » by AnaheimRoyale » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:17 am

Well, before we talk about the Mavs, let's look at how bad the 2003 Spurs support cast was. There are hundreds of posts I searched this site through, which posters have written detailing just how bad the Spurs support cast was, but this one is probably the best at capturing their suckiness (it's from the top 100 thread):
2003... greatest over-achievement season of all-time?

In 2003 Parker was so raw, a little known energy player named Speedy Claxton stole his minutes in the playoffs.

Malik was an undersized, unathletic, often overweight, energy guy off the bench who started a mere 85 games in his 813 game career (44 of those starts for the Isiah Knicks). He was a sucktaculous player frequently. When the Spurs gave him a $42mill/7 year contract to entice Tim to stay (because they were best friends) they were roundly condemned for massively overpaying. Thankfully for the Spurs, Isiah took his contract on.

D.Rob was a shell in 2003. He played 64 games for 26mpg and put up 8.5 and 7.9, playing like a stiff alot of the time. He was worse in the playoffs. Much worse. In game 4 he actually had more turnovers than points (1-0), and twice as many fouls as rebounds (6-3). He was a non-factor that series almost. In game 2 he played 17 minutes for a pitiful 4 points, 4 boards and 4 fouls. The Spurs won by 19 anyway. In game 3 when the result was reversed D.Rob was again a non-factor, 15 minutes for 4 points and 4 boards from 1-3 shooting. In game 4 D.Rob played 14 minutes, posting 6 fouls, 0 points and 3 boards. The next game 6 & 7 on 3/7 shooting, and the deciding game 7-5. The only decent game he had was game 1. D.Rob was basically a non-factor in the playoffs (and regular season generally) for a similar ratio. He'd have one solid game, then a 5 duds. Someone who is solid 1/6 games and pitiful the rest is not a desirable big man. Especially not when he misses games and can't physically play for more than 26mpg.

Manu played 20mpg for a reason, he was incredibly raw and all over the place. He shot poorly, he caused turnovers. S.Jax was such a rising star the best offer he got in the offseason was $1mill per year from the Hawks. The Spurs had offered a 3 year deal starting at $1.4 mill, but he turned it down. Nobody saw S.Jax as any kind of star in 2003, and while he later rose to the heights of MLE player (and then "overpaid GSW player") that was some years off. Bowen was a good defender, and a terrible offensive player. Teams understood his flaws, which is probably why they never offered him a big pay day to come play for them. He earnt over $4mill I think once in his career (barely). He was a very hard player to utilise, because he had no offence at all, no handles, no passing, just defence and the ability to hit a wide open corner 3. Without TD there to suck in defenders, Bowen becomes a huge liability.

Smith and Ferry were washed out. There is no shortage of bench bums who can hit 3's, but the reason they ride the pine is because they suck holistically as players, and such was true of Ferry and Smith in 2003.

1/15 ESPN analysts picked them to win the title in 03. Nobody really gave them a hope in hell. Duncan taking these guys to the title over prime Shaq and Kobe might be the greatest single man effort in the history of the NBA playoffs. I hear a lot of people whine that Horry let the team down in the playoffs to explain away the loss. I have 3 responses to that:
1) You shouldn’t be relying on a bench player to bail you out when you have prime frickin Shaq and Kobe
2) A lot of the reason Horry played so bad was because he was being guarded by Duncan. Not all the reason, but it’s strange people draw a disconnect between Horry playing badly, and Duncan guarding him a lot. Most importantly though,
3) Horry’s shooting actually had very little impact on the outcome. Taking a look at the numbers it's hard to see the argument that Horry's cold shooting (partly induced by good defence) was the decisive failure down the stretch. In the games the Spurs won Horry was 0-3 (Spurs win by 5), 0-2 (Spurs win by 19), 0-6 (Spurs win by 2), 0-2 (Spurs win by 28). The only one of those games it would have made an obvious difference in is game 5 (I think it's unrealistic to expect Horry to shoot 2-3 with Duncan guarding him most of the game), and I think a much bigger factor in that game was Kobe taking an incredible 31 shots (for sub-500 shooting), rather than lobbing it downlow to Shaq (though he took 38 shots in the game 1 loss... 38!) The Lakers bench in particular shot well that game. I can point to any game and say "if player X shoots better, they win", indeed should I cry about S.Jax, who didn't hit a 3 except in game 4 (which the Spurs lost), the rest of the series he was 0-10! Full credit to Tim, he really carried the Spurs that series.


Now let's look at the Mavs. They had 2 guys who were plainly better than the next best guy on Duncan's team- Chandler and Jason Terry. One of those guys is a borderline all-star type guard, the other is an all-nba player and DPOY. So before we begin this analysis, Dirk has already won, he's got by far and away the best Robin and Batgirl. The Spurs didn't have anyone who would even have sniffed an all-star appearance that year. But it gets worse for Dirk. Rounding out the team he has versatile Shawn Marion, Vet Jason Kidd and Barea off the bench, 29 games of Caron Butler. Even Peja and Haywood were above average for the roles they were in- Peja as a deadly shooter off the bench and Haywood a superior back up big 5. I'm not sure which Mavs you were watching in 2011, but guys like Barea made their money playing that year (so much so the Mavs couldn't keep him), and Jason Kidd for all his shortcomings was better than what the Spurs had in 03 (a guy so raw they had to pull him for Speedy Claxton), especially with his great outside shooting, and with Barea to switch with him when he was slowing. Transport Marion onto the Spurs in 03, and he'd have a good case as their 2nd best player (as would Butler while healthy), but on your team those guys are maybe the 4th best players.
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Re: Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki 

Post#68 » by AnaheimRoyale » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:21 am

I just want to pick on my favourite part of the ridiculous analysis above, likening the two teams.
Kerr = Peja

Kerr played 4.6 minutes per game in 10 out of 24 playoff games in 2003. Peja played 18.4 minutes per game in 19 of your 21 games in the 2011 playoffs. It's absurd on the face of it to compare the contributions of the two players, Peja was hitting clutch 3's all the time in the playoffs, while Kerr barely played.
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Re: Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki 

Post#69 » by ahonui06 » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:24 am

QuantMisleads wrote:Malone is the better player. The reason Malone didn't do as well in the playoffs is the way the Utah offense was structured. It was top heavy, with the other players lacking the necessary skill to help push them over the top, and that goes for Stockton as well who offensively just didn't shoot enough. Everyone knows it all went through Malone, and stopping one man is easier than stopping a team. Another reason why his numbers dipped is that Malone played similar minutes to what he did in the regular season. This is also why Wilt Chamberlain's numbers dipped, for these two reasons, especially the latter, because he played all 48 minutes no matter the occasion.

but respect goes out to Dirk for sure


You realize that DIRK is the entire offense of the Mavs right? DIRK's numbers are sustained in the postseason. Why did Malone's drop?
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Re: Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki 

Post#70 » by QuantMisleads » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:36 am

I already said why Malone's dropped in case you can't read what you quoted, while no Dirk is not the entire offense, though I'll admit what he did in 2011 was epic now that you've reminded me (although it helps when he had a good support cast). In the halfcourt at his peak Dirk is the better offensive player, but overall Malone is still better. He's 2nd in points after KAJ for a reason.
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Re: Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki 

Post#71 » by Woodsanity » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:46 am

AnaheimRoyale wrote:You obviouisly have no understanding of the amounts of help on the 03 Spurs v.s the 11 Mavs. If you insist, I will go over it at length, but you're just going to look silly.

Mavs had more help but it was hardly a lot more help. Lets not even mention the fact that they faced better competition. Overall, both playoff runs were great. I give Duncan the edge but his playoff run wasn't THAT much better than Dirk's.
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Re: Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki 

Post#72 » by AnaheimRoyale » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:04 am

How good the playoff run was is a different question to the one being posed. My post was in response to the claim that the two teams had comparable support casts.

As for the 2011 Mavs run, I think they faced a higher level of team in general than the 03 Spurs, it was an impressive postseason from a great team, however the Spurs in 03 also beat a team who was better than any team the Mavs faced in prime Shaq and Kobe. I am not at all sure Duncan's 03 Spurs could win in 2011, but then Duncan had a significantly worse support cast too, so it is hardly his fault if they'd come up short.
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Re: Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki 

Post#73 » by RalphWiggum » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:12 am

I love Dirk's game and what he accomplished last year in the finals but there is no way he has done anything in my mind to make him a better player than Malone was. He's in the discussion but IMO has not done enough to leap over Malone.
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Re: Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki 

Post#74 » by Rapcity_11 » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:34 am

AnaheimRoyale wrote: There are hundreds of posts I searched this site through, which posters have written detailing just how bad the Spurs support cast was, but this one is probably the best at capturing their suckiness (it's from the top 100 thread):


Way to quote yourself.....
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Re: Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki 

Post#75 » by AnaheimRoyale » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:42 am

Nah, that's a quote from the top 100 thread before I got here. I did think of quoting a few other long posts in the top 100 thread, RPOY project, etc, but that one covers off on 2003 the most.
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Re: Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki 

Post#76 » by Rapcity_11 » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:45 am

AnaheimRoyale wrote:Nah, that's a quote from the top 100 thread before I got here. I did think of quoting a few other long posts in the top 100 thread, RPOY project, etc, but that one covers off on 2003 the most.


It's from Gilmore Fan, which was you.

It's hilarious when banned posters come back and pretend they're new.
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Re: Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki 

Post#77 » by QuantMisleads » Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:07 am

I don't pretend I"m new, as I'm usually discovered after the 1st post I make under a new name ;)
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Re: Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki 

Post#78 » by mysticbb » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:02 am

AnaheimRoyale wrote:Peja was hitting clutch 3's all the time in the playoffs, while Kerr barely played.


Peja Stojakovic didn't make a single clutch 3 during the 2011 playoff run. In fact he attempted just one 3pt shot in clutch situations (game 2 vs. OKC) and he missed that shot. He took another shot in clutch minutes during game 3 against the Lakers, which was a 2pt attempt which he also missed. Overall Stojakovic wasn't even on the court much during the clutch minutes, because the Mavericks mainly ran the lineup Chandler-Nowitzki-Marion-Terry-Kidd during clutch minutes anyway.

Anyway, the difference in terms of supporting cast between the 2003 Spurs and 2011 isn't that big, if the performance level is taken into account. It matters how they played and not whether the 2003 Spurs support overachieved.

The matter of fact is that 2011 Mavericks without Nowitzki played bad. Terry, Kidd, Barea, Chandler, etc. pp, basically all players shifted in terms of shot selection and their ability to make shots without Nowitzki (Haywood was the only exception), because the easy opportunities for them decreased.

And when someone is arguing that Nowitzki was considered "soft", they should probably start watching him play. Back in 2001 there was the series against the Spurs. Nowitzki got his teeth knocked out in the 4th quarter of game 4, comes back and makes the next tough shots and his free throws to lead the Mavericks to a win. And in game 5 we can see how strong the supporting cast was, when Finley and Howard missed all their easy attempts and Nash did nothing to help. Nowitzki posted 42/18 against those Spurs, taking tough shots and getting to the basket to keep his team at least a bit in striking distance. The Spurs support made one 3pt after another, but I guess Anaheim would still argue that Nowitzki had the better players around him. :roll:
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Re: Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki 

Post#79 » by kasino » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:15 am

@6
but Dirk last year didn't lead his team to a 50 win season, reason for leaving 02

Dirk played with Nash and Kidd
had good anchors throughout his entire tenure
had Howard/Carter/Marion/Terry/Butler in different versions of the Mavs

Malone gets more points on great percentage
in the RS and PS he gives your team more
he you want to say less shots for less points equal more shots for more points in the PS I'm cool with that

I'll take Malone
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Re: Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki 

Post#80 » by AnaheimRoyale » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:59 am

mysticbb wrote:Peja Stojakovic didn't make a single clutch 3 during the 2011 playoff run. In fact he attempted just one 3pt shot in clutch situations (game 2 vs. OKC) and he missed that shot. He took another shot in clutch minutes during game 3 against the Lakers, which was a 2pt attempt which he also missed. Overall Stojakovic wasn't even on the court much during the clutch minutes, because the Mavericks mainly ran the lineup Chandler-Nowitzki-Marion-Terry-Kidd during clutch minutes anyway.

Excuse me, "dagger threes". Jesus, the point is he was vastly superior to Kerr, and was good at hitting key shots for them, whether they came in the last 2 minutes (or whatever you are defining clutch to mean) is really irrelevant to his value in the series.

Anyway, the difference in terms of supporting cast between the 2003 Spurs and 2011 isn't that big, if the performance level is taken into account. It matters how they played and not whether the 2003 Spurs support overachieved.

I noted a post which showed quite plainly how they didn't. D.Rob sucked v.s the Lakers for instance, S.Jax couldn't hit the broad side of a barn v.s the Lakers. The Spurs won largely due to Duncan's awesomeness. Dirk had a simply superior team, end of story.

The matter of fact is that 2011 Mavericks without Nowitzki played bad. Terry, Kidd, Barea, Chandler, etc. pp, basically all players shifted in terms of shot selection and their ability to make shots without Nowitzki (Haywood was the only exception), because the easy opportunities for them decreased.

So first we need to look at "how they actually played", in order to avoid bias, and now we need only look at "how they played without Dirk". If your above analysis (mere sentences ago) is correct, then how they played without Dirk doesn't matter, because they played great with Dirk, which was almost the whole game in the 2011 playoffs. Indeed, Dirk played so much the rest is almost too small a sample size to be meaningful.

And when someone is arguing that Nowitzki was considered "soft", they should probably start watching him play. Back in 2001 there was the series against the Spurs. Nowitzki got his teeth knocked out in the 4th quarter of game 4, comes back and makes the next tough shots and his free throws to lead the Mavericks to a win. And in game 5 we can see how strong the supporting cast was, when Finley and Howard missed all their easy attempts and Nash did nothing to help. Nowitzki posted 42/18 against those Spurs, taking tough shots and getting to the basket to keep his team at least a bit in striking distance. The Spurs support made one 3pt after another, but I guess Anaheim would still argue that Nowitzki had the better players around him. :roll:

I haven't referred to Dirk being soft even once. You're arguing against a straw man.

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