Summer 2012 Free Agents Thread - Part II

[jivelikenice]

deals instead of signing an FA to a 3+ year deal, we can extend everyone without paying the luxury tax. And ]
Right. The Okafor/Ariza acquisition prevented us from acquiring a free agent in 2013 - which was our only window of opportunity to make a big impact in free agency.

How would a big FA acquisition in '13 have affected our ability to retain our impending FAs in regards to the luxury tax, which Ted has no intention of paying?

[jivelikenice]

The opportunity is still there in '13. Teams will be willing to take on Okafor or Ariza's contracts next offseason to prepare for the '14 FA class, which is loaded. That could be our opportunity to add on salary before retaining our own in '14

[jivelikenice]

The only way the Wizards could have cap room in 2014 would be to renounce players, decline options on rookie contracts, or trade away players without taking back future salaries.

Isn't this common with teams that position themselves to be aggressive in FA? The Heat gave away Beasley. The Bulls gave away Hinrich and a 1st rd pick. Minnesota just gave away Wes Johnson and a first rd pick. this team has a lot of guys we can move in either of the next two offseasons and seems positioned to take on salary in a trade if they choose to, or have cap space by duping some assets. It's wayyyyy to early to say our hands are tied the next few yrs......

[Ruzious]

Hands, the whole point of our conversation was how the Lewis trade affects the future and your plan - and your plan as you ORIGINALLY stated would have been a viable plan - if not for that trade. That trade is why your original plan most likely won't happen. Again, they almost certainly won't be able to sign a big time free agent next offseason - and they won't have that cap space (which you cannot logically discount - even though you keep trying - it was potentially an enormous asset) to help make a huge trade. And again, the year after that is problematic because Wall will have to be paid most likely max dollars - for the forseeable future. With Wall and Nene all by themselves taking up half the cap, they won't have anywhere near the opportunity that they would have had in the 2013 offseason. They have severely limited their options in order to attempt to reach mediocrity.

Have they completely destroyed any chances to be a contender in the future? No. But they have the same GM who's had no success here in a decade and was basically ran out of town in Milwaukee after several years of mediocrity there. He's basically got nothing to show for the last 15 or so years as a GM. To assume he's going to lead this franchise back to anything more than mediocrity is to fly into the face of logic. I doubt there is any NBA analyst that believes Ernie Grunfeld is a good man for the job. If you choose to continue to ignore all that, because you want to be a shiney happy fan who feels fortunate to strive for mediocrity, then good for you.

Ruz

Give it a break buddy. You can say it is my plan all you want. I am not reporting my plan. I reported what I see they did and why I think they did it and where I see that putting them.

What you are framing the "whole point of the conversation" as is not the whole point of the conversation. This is not Fox Noise buddy. You don't get to chance what I said into something that suits you and then counter agree against some fictitious position I didnt take.

Regarding EG, I actually posted this.. I said Ted/EG have done well in turning the roster over. EGs contract is up in two years. Maybe Ted/EG won't be as good at building a winning as they were at accomplishing the stage 1 tear down. If so, in two years they will get a new GM who is better at building the next stages.

Stop the crap where you are assigning things to me that are not my position. What is wrong with you.

Ok... what positions of yours did I misrepresent?

[fishercob]

And what exactly does Minnesota have to show for getting Batum to sign an offer sheet? You'd be apoplectic if the Wizards had cap space and then signed Kirilenko to the deal that Minnesota did. Anderson, also restricted, cost New Orleans a decent young piece as well in Ayon. You hate overpaying mediocre players in free agency and you hate not going after free agents because you're don't think your enough of a destination for guys to sign reasonable deals to come here. There's not a lot of room in between.

First off, your changing the argument. I've heard ad nauseum that no one would sign with the Wizards. That's what I was specfically arguing.

Fair enough, but I think you're hearing something more specific than is actually being said. Neither Ted nor Ernie never said "no one is going to sign with us, so we might as well make a trade." Never. What Ted has basically said is that the risks associated with free agency, in this case, made the OkaRiza trade, which already helped the roster, even more appealing.

It's not only whether or not guys would choose to be here when presented with multiple options, but what they would cost and for how long. I suppose we could criticize the FO for failure to predict what desirable free agents would ultimately cost, but I don't think that's fair.

I'm a lot more comfortable with ownership saying "we're not the destination we want to be yet" and working to that end, than I would be them predicating too much of what they do on free agency.

The truth hurts, I guess. As a proponent of brutal honesty, this should resonate with you. Front office swagger is meaningless. Going aggressively after free agents and making a big show of it is meaningless. Who they actually land and for how much is what matters. Results matter. Minnesota doesn't get any points in the standings for providing Batum with the leverage to get the money he wanted from Portland.

I couldn't disagree with you more. The younger generation calls it swagger, I call it confidence. Confidence matters in everything we do. Without confidence there's 0% at succeeding. The Wizards front office are a perfect example of this. Ernie & Ted didn't believe they could sign anyone. And the crazy thing is they actually admitted it. To me, that's just sad. You've lost before you even played the game because you were too scared to even try. Shame on Ernie for lacking vision, creativity and the golatas to take any sort of risk. A desperate man trying to save his career. And double the shame on Teddy Leonsis, for eating the slop that Pringles served him, then smiling in the camera afterwards like it's the best thing he's ever tasted.

Maybe they are right in thinking they couldn't sign anyone. But only because they believe it.

We've been called the Clippers East for the last two decades. Look at the Clips now. Even with a crappy owner, Neil Oshay (before leaving for Portland this offseason) didn't make a similar excuse. Much like the Wizards, the Clips have been a place where players go to fail. Much like the Wizards, they struck lottery fortune a found a potential star. Much UNLIKE the Wizards, they didn't act like a 80 yr old lady that mistakenly walks into a Gucci Mane video shoot when it came to free agency and the trade market. They were bold. They actually pursued LeBron. And while everyone snickered, especially in the media, LeBron met with them. And going forward, it set the table that this is a franchise that is serious about not just competiting but contending. The aggressively pursued trades until they landed Chris Paul. Now their a relevant franchise on the basketball landscape. We're ready to buy into the excitement in possibly losing less than 50 games this year. You can think big or think small and it really does make all the difference in the world.

Stop it. Their pursuit of Lebron or Kobe in free agency had nothing to do with Chris Paul. Chis Paul is a Clipper because of Eric Gordon and an unprotected first from Minnesota. Period. The Clips made that deal because they drafted Blake Griffin (remarkable vision, eh?) and Deandre Jordan (respect). Without Paul, the Caron contract would have looked like a big overpay (with him it doesn't look so hot).

Do you read Ted's blogs and think he lacks confidence? If anything I'm more worried that he's too confident and that he overvalues what we've already acquired. But you don't reach his level of success without confidence and an insatiable desire to succeed. And for all the fair and valid criticism of Ernie, I don't think great college and good pro players lack for confidence and competitive fire. Again, Ernie's downfall may be his arrogance and failure to understand his own weaknesses (has he every admitted to himself any of his mistakes and examined why he made them?).

I have no problem with Ted correctly admitting that we are not on any superstar's short list of teams yet and his admission that we are working to get there. Whether we do or not has more to do with how good Wall and Beal turn out to be -- and how much we win -- than "confidence."

]

One or both of those guys could opt out after this season. Even if neither do, they'd both be expiring contracts and at worst marginally competent veterans with good attitudes in a year. I don't think we are going to miss out on any key acquisitions because of lack of cap room. And by the way, even if we did have cap room, who from this list would be a desirable and attainable difference maker?

The chances of either opting out is slim to none. Unless one pulls a Byron Russell and I don't think anyone here is hoping the situation turns so toxic that either feels the need to "get the hell out of dodge".

And yes, we could potentially miss out on key acquisitions because of a lack of cap room. It's not just about free agency. The ability to make trades without worrying about matching up salaries. The opportunity to take on additional long term salary which teams are usually willing to pay a price for (unless they're dealing with Ernie of course).

Either opting out wouldn't be a function of toxicity, but rather economics. If Ariza can get 3/$20M or maybe even $15M from a place close to home, maybe he takes it. If Okafor, who'' have made $75M for his career, can get 2/$20M from the Spurs (even if he leaves some money on the table) and gets to contend for a title, he may do it.

But to your last point, I don't think there's big threat of losing out on trades -- because both guys will be expiring and they are both decent players. If for instance Lamarcus Aldridge went nuclear on the Blazers, having Okafor's expiring would be enough salary ballast to make the deal assuming the youth/picks was to their liking. Said differently, I can't see Portland in this example taking less in the way of youth/picks to to do a deal for instant savings as opposed to a year of Okafor.

[closg00]

Great post, Dat2U. I especially liked:

Shame on Ernie for lacking vision, creativity and the golatas to take any sort of risk. A desperate man trying to save his career. And double the shame on Teddy Leonsis, for eating the slop that Pringles served him, then smiling in the camera afterwards like it's the best thing he's ever tasted.

That's practically poetry thread-worthy

Golatas, I like that. And now it's time to quote from Boiler Room.

Jim Young: There's an important phrase that we use here, and think it's time that you all learned it. Act as if. You understand what that means? Act as if you are the f**cking President of this firm. Act as if you got a 9" c*ck. Okay? Act as if.

Ted and Ernie act like whimpering puppies, two losers in a low self-esteem support group. What agent would want his player going to an organization that publically proclaims that no-one wants to come here. Well Act as-if they do for starters.

[fishercob]

Project much?

[closg00]

Project much?

Golatas

[nate33]

deals instead of signing an FA to a 3+ year deal, we can extend everyone without paying the luxury tax. And ]
Right. The Okafor/Ariza acquisition prevented us from acquiring a free agent in 2013 - which was our only window of opportunity to make a big impact in free agency.

How would a big FA acquisition in '13 have affected our ability to retain our impending FAs in regards to the luxury tax, which Ted has no intention of paying?

Please. Just stop. You can't win this argument because the facts simply aren't on your side.

We would have had plenty of room under the luxtax threshold in 2014/15 if we never traded for Okafor/Ariza and instead signed a max free agent next year.

[nate33]

The opportunity is still there in '13. Teams will be willing to take on Okafor or Ariza's contracts next offseason to prepare for the '14 FA class, which is loaded. That could be our opportunity to add on salary before retaining our own in '14

As Dat2U pointed out, any trade that only looks good based on the execution of some hypothetical future trade is almost surely a bad trade.

Yes, if we can trade Okafor and Ariza for raw cap space next summer, we'd be in great shape. But we can't. And don't argue that they'll be useful trading chips as expiring contracts because expiring contracts are nowhere near as useful in a trade scenario as raw cap space would be.

[nate33]

The only way the Wizards could have cap room in 2014 would be to renounce players, decline options on rookie contracts, or trade away players without taking back future salaries.

Isn't this common with teams that position themselves to be aggressive in FA? The Heat gave away Beasley. The Bulls gave away Hinrich and a 1st rd pick. Minnesota just gave away Wes Johnson and a first rd pick. this team has a lot of guys we can move in either of the next two offseasons and seems positioned to take on salary in a trade if they choose to, or have cap space by duping some assets. It's wayyyyy to early to say our hands are tied the next few yrs......

You are proving my point. Chicago had to sacrifice a future draft pick just do dump a pretty good player in Hinrich. Minnesota had to sacrifice a draft pick just to give up a guy on his rookie contract. It took terrible vision from those GM's to put themselves in the position of having to give up picks just to dump guys that shouldn't be that hard to dump. Why on Earth would we want to put ourselves in the same position? If we didn't acquire Okafor/Ariza, and instead acquired Brand and Danny Green at less than 20% of the cost, we wouldn't have to make such a choice.

[LyricalRico]

And what exactly does Minnesota have to show for getting Batum to sign an offer sheet? You'd be apoplectic if the Wizards had cap space and then signed Kirilenko to the deal that Minnesota did. Anderson, also restricted, cost New Orleans a decent young piece as well in Ayon. You hate overpaying mediocre players in free agency and you hate not going after free agents because you're don't think your enough of a destination for guys to sign reasonable deals to come here. There's not a lot of room in between.

Exactly. The same people complaining that we don't have cap space next year would be the same people with buyer's remorse down the road, especially if we would've gotten to 2014 and had to let somebody we drafted go because we had B-level guys like Ryan Anderson or Landry Fields on our books for big money. They'd be screaming about Ted/Ernie not having the "vision" to acquire shorter deals when they had the chance so that they could re-sign everybody when the time came.

I also think it's a mistake to assume that the organization was ever going to target 2013 as a year to spend big long-term FA dollars. Maybe they looked at what might be available and decided not to. They apparently believe that they have the right mix of young players on the roster, and they want to develop them over the next two seasons while making sure that they have the room under the luxury tax to re-sign all of them when the time came. It's quite possible IMO that 2014 was always the plan and the organization was never targeting 2013 as a year to spend significant FA dollars or take back long-term salary in trades.

So they looked around at the players that were most likely to be available, identified the ones that they thought could help them the most over the next two seasons, and they were willing to pay a premium to make sure they got them. And if the team 1) has at least semi-significant increases in wins in both of next two seasons, 2) develops the young players along the way, and 3) re-signs everybody that deserves it, I don't see how you can say that this was not a successful next step in the building process. And I, for one, believe that to be exactly what's going to happen.

Will it have been the sexy, rags-to-riches story of using cap space for instant success that many here seem to want? No, but that hardly ever happens anyway. So I'm comfortable with taking solid (even if unspectacular) steps forward rather than chasing the proverbial wind.

Go Wiz!

[closg00]

And what did New Orleans have to give-up to dump the bloated contracts of Okafor/Ariza?

[nate33]

And what did New Orleans have to give-up to dump the bloated contracts of Okafor/Ariza?

To be fair, they did have to give up the $13.7M in cash (and cap room) to buy out Lewis' contract.

[closg00]

And what did New Orleans have to give-up to dump the bloated contracts of Okafor/Ariza?

To be fair, they did have to give up the $13.7M in cash (and cap room) to buy out Lewis' contract.

Oh-yeah, I mean NO didnt have to give-up any pIcks to unload Okafor and Ariza.

[DCZards]

Few, if any, top flight free agents change teams each year and it's rare for a game-changing star to be traded. So it's not all that hard to understand why Ted and EG opted to improve the Zards by trading for Okafor and Ariza instead. These are players on short term contracts who give the Zards better rebounding (something we desperately needed), improved toughness and D, and a smarter, more professional team---both on and off the court---especially when compared to last season.

Taken together, these things have created a much better environment for youngin's like Wall, Beal and Seraphin to develop and mature as people and players---and maybe even gain some valuable playoff experience.

I think we'll discover that what Ted and EG did with the Okafor/Ariza trade was smart rather than cowardice.

[DCZards]

Golatas

Some on this board loved the "golatas" Houston GM Morey showed when he let talent like Lowry and Dragic walk, and cleared cap room in order to go after D. Howard--who said all along that he wouldn't resign with the Rockets if they traded for him. How'd that turn out? Well, it turned out with Houston overpaying for free agents Jeremy Lin and Omer Asik.

In other words, Morey was left holding his "golatas."

[LyricalRico]

I think we'll discover that what Ted and EG did with the Okafor/Ariza trade was smart rather than cowardice.

[jivelikenice]

deals instead of signing an FA to a 3+ year deal, we can extend everyone without paying the luxury tax. And ]
Right. The Okafor/Ariza acquisition prevented us from acquiring a free agent in 2013 - which was our only window of opportunity to make a big impact in free agency.

How would a big FA acquisition in '13 have affected our ability to retain our impending FAs in regards to the luxury tax, which Ted has no intention of paying?

Please. Just stop. You can't win this argument because the facts simply aren't on your side.

We would have had plenty of room under the luxtax threshold in 2014/15 if we never traded for Okafor/Ariza and instead signed a max free agent next year.

Just stop??...why don't you lighten up. I'm actually asking a question for discussion purposes, not making an argument. Maybe you should learn the difference , or ignore my posts.....

My QUESTION was if we signed a max FA, we definitely would have had room to sign Wall to max deal, Seraphin to likely 10mm per, keep our next two firsts, and have cap holds on Booker and Crawford in '14 without being at the lux tax?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Great post, Dat2U. I especially liked:

Shame on Ernie for lacking vision, creativity and the golatas to take any sort of risk. A desperate man trying to save his career. And double the shame on Teddy Leonsis, for eating the slop that Pringles served him, then smiling in the camera afterwards like it's the best thing he's ever tasted.

That's practically poetry thread-worthy

Golatas, I like that. And now it's time to quote from Boiler Room.

Jim Young: There's an important phrase that we use here, and think it's time that you all learned it. Act as if. You understand what that means? Act as if you are the f**cking President of this firm. Act as if you got a 9" c*ck. Okay? Act as if.

Ted and Ernie act like whimpering puppies, two losers in a low self-esteem support group. What agent would want his player going to an organization that publically proclaims that no-one wants to come here. Well Act as-if they do for starters.

Way back in the day, my first job out of college, I had a job interview with a female boss. At some point in the interview process I recall reading her body language. I smiled and she smiled back. I was never more confident of anything. I remember practically sitting on the woman's desk (I think I did, actually) at one point during the interview. Of course I got that job.

I agree with you on Ted and Ernie, closg00.

Also, thanks for reminding of something really important -- Never lose your confidence. It will take you a long way in life.