#7 Highest Peak of All Time (Bird '86 wins)

[AnaheimRoyale]

I'd rank Duncan 4th all-time, ahead of Magic and Bird, so yeh, his peak is better.

[PTB Fan]

From what I see:

09 LeBron - 5 (therealbig3, colts18, SDChargers#1, Doctor MJ, DavidStern)
03 Duncan - 3 (Dr Positivity, C-izMe, JordansBulls)
86 Bird - 2 (ElGee, PTB Fan)
87 Magic - 1 (ardee)
85 Magic - 1 (Josephpaul)

Only 3 more votes are needed.

[PTB Fan]

I still have '76 Erving over LeBron on my own personal list, so I disagree with him being here.

I'm trying to decide where to put Walton.

I think you should post your great post for Dr J just to add to the variety of choices

[ardee]

From what I see:

09 LeBron - 5 (therealbig3, colts18, SDChargers#1, Doctor MJ, DavidStern)
03 Duncan - 3 (Dr Positivity, C-izMe, JordansBulls)
86 Bird - 2 (ElGee, PTB Fan)
87 Magic - 1 (ardee)
85 Magic - 1 (Josephpaul)

I think the Regul8tor has been voting for '87 Magic for a while now.

[bastillon]

From what I see:

09 LeBron - 5 (therealbig3, colts18, SDChargers#1, Doctor MJ, DavidStern)
03 Duncan - 3 (Dr Positivity, C-izMe, JordansBulls)
86 Bird - 2 (ElGee, PTB Fan)
87 Magic - 1 (ardee)
85 Magic - 1 (Josephpaul)

Only 3 more votes are needed.

it's between Bird 86 and Walton 77 for me, but since neither is getting much of a traction, I'll vote for Duncan 03 as well. I've always been tough on him but he does have excellent arguments vs Bird and Walton. his 02 season seems as the best for me actually, though it should be said that Lakers really struggled to defend PFs all the time.

btw, I think Bird's defense gets severely underrated. yes, he sucks ass a perimeter defender one on one, but he's GREAT team defender and he has massive impact as a PF. there's a reason why Celtics regressed without Bird's defense significantly. his defensive rebounding, positioning and length were really valuable. he's probably the best player left now. doesn't seem to have a big flaw (man defense is overrated) whereas other candidates all have something you can nitpick on. LeBron - didn't play defense in 09 ECFs, doesn't play well with other star players. Walton - can't score, can't break down the defense off isolations. Duncan - regresses vs good post defenders (Grant 01, Malone 04, Sheed 05, Varejao/Ilgauskas 07, Gasol 08), doesn't make a great impact offensively. Magic - net zero defensively. KG - scoring drop off in the postseason, regresses vs good defenders a lot.

also I don't think SD chargers is on the pannel. anyway, vote for Duncan 03.

[C-izMe]

I'm a big Duncan fan, but why is his peak being considered better than Magic's or Bird's? I consider LeBron in their class too, but for the sake of historical perspective, let's leave him out. Magic and Bird are traditionally ranked ahead of Duncan. They do not have a longevity edge over Duncan. So by definition, they definitely have better peaks, no?

This obviously doesn't apply to the people who do have Duncan over Magic and Bird (I know Dr Positivity does)...but C-izMe and JordansBulls, you guys have Duncan ranked over both of them all time right? Because it's not like Magic and Bird saw big dropoffs in their non-peak years.

I can't speak for JB but I have Duncan well over Bird. Mainly because I value the PS a lot and Bird has more than a few PS failures. IMO Magic would be the GOAT if it wasn't for his HIV (I still have him 3rd or 4th on my list). Duncan is 5th or 6th depending on how I rank him and Shaq.

My next vote will probably be Magic, Dr. I, Bird, or Lebron. I'm not too sure because I've been thinking about Duncan the last few threads.

[Woodsanity]

I don't see how anyone can honestly vote for Bird. He was a fairly poor playoff performer(with only 2-3 great playoffs) and his regular season performance is nowhere near good enough to rank him #7 highest peak. If you can argue Bird you should be able to argue Kobe as well who was the better two way player and playoff performer. Lebron 09 and Duncan 03 dominated the regular season and playoffs. They were more impactful and did not play on stacked teams.

[drza]

I've been on my "one of the Bigs or Magic" kick for the last several threads, so since Magic has yet to gain any real traction I've been voting for the best big in contention for awhile. My list of all-time Bigs is dwindling, but Duncan is definitely on there. So...

Vote: Tim Duncan '03

[bastillon]

I don't see how anyone can honestly vote for Bird. He was a fairly poor playoff performer(with only 2-3 great playoffs) and his regular season performance is nowhere near good enough to rank him #7 highest peak. If you can argue Bird you should be able to argue Kobe as well who was the better two way player and playoff performer. Lebron 09 and Duncan 03 dominated the regular season and playoffs. They were more impactful and did not play on stacked teams.

do you even remotely understand the concept of "peak" ? 86 Bird was flawless from start to finish. healthy Bird had a massive postseason impact. Bird's failures hurt his legacy, but not how good he was as a player. this thread is more about your maximum impact rather than all things career-wise considered. thus Bird is a heavy contender here and quite frankly I'm surprised he has slipped so low.

[C-izMe]

So that's 5 Duncan and 3 Lebron. Unless we have some changes Duncan's next up.

[lorak]

So that's 5 Duncan and 3 Lebron. Unless we have some changes Duncan's next up.

From what I see:

09 LeBron - 5 (therealbig3, colts18, SDChargers#1, Doctor MJ, DavidStern)
03 Duncan - 3 (Dr Positivity, C-izMe, JordansBulls)

+ drza and bastillon voted for Duncan
so it's 5 -5 or 5-4, depends on if SDCharges is on the panel

[ardee]

I don't see how anyone can honestly vote for Bird. He was a fairly poor playoff performer(with only 2-3 great playoffs) and his regular season performance is nowhere near good enough to rank him #7 highest peak. If you can argue Bird you should be able to argue Kobe as well who was the better two way player and playoff performer. Lebron 09 and Duncan 03 dominated the regular season and playoffs. They were more impactful and did not play on stacked teams.

You are aware that we are not discussing all time rankings, rather all-time PEAK rankings?

You are aware that in '86 Bird was the KEY of arguably the GOAT team?

You are aware that the Celtics ripped off a 39-5 stretch during which Bird had a PER of over 32?

You are aware that Bird had a 26-9-8 playoffs on 50-40-90 shooting, and averaged a triple double in the Finals?

[C-izMe]

So that's 5 Duncan and 3 Lebron. Unless we have some changes Duncan's next up.

From what I see:

09 LeBron - 5 (therealbig3, colts18, SDChargers#1, Doctor MJ, DavidStern)
03 Duncan - 3 (Dr Positivity, C-izMe, JordansBulls)

+ drza and bastillon voted for Duncan
so it's 5 -5 or 5-4, depends on if SDCharges is on the panel

SDChargers isn't on yet. So it's still close.

[colts18]

That counts for something

What should that "something" be?

The performance level against ALL teams is a better indicator of playoff success than the performance level against certain teams, whatever sample you select. That was tested in different ways, with capped MOV against weak teams, just against weak teams, just against strong teams, etc. pp. In the end the best predictor (on the team level) turned out to be SRS against all teams +HCA. Thus, that ranking doesn't tell much about the "real strength" of the teams.

Elgee, that aren't even 80% of the games, but rather below 65%. A team, which went out in a sweep in the 1st round, can have just 51% of their games included (7 non-playoff teams in the conference á 4 game plus 7*2 against non-playoff teams from the other conference makes 42 games left out from 86 games overall).

No, where is this evidence coming from? This is from B-R:

In the NBA, dominating good teams is clearly the best indicator of postseason success. Teams that had more regular-season dominations (big wins over good teams) won 64.8% of their "final four" series, including 73.3% of their Finals matchups.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8159

[JordansBulls]

I'm a big Duncan fan, but why is his peak being considered better than Magic's or Bird's? I consider LeBron in their class too, but for the sake of historical perspective, let's leave him out. Magic and Bird are traditionally ranked ahead of Duncan. They do not have a longevity edge over Duncan. So by definition, they definitely have better peaks, no?

This obviously doesn't apply to the people who do have Duncan over Magic and Bird (I know Dr Positivity does)...but C-izMe and JordansBulls, you guys have Duncan ranked over both of them all time right? Because it's not like Magic and Bird saw big dropoffs in their non-peak years.

I can't speak for JB but I have Duncan well over Bird. Mainly because I value the PS a lot and Bird has more than a few PS failures. IMO Magic would be the GOAT if it wasn't for his HIV (I still have him 3rd or 4th on my list). Duncan is 5th or 6th depending on how I rank him and Shaq.

My next vote will probably be Magic, Dr. I, Bird, or Lebron. I'm not too sure because I've been thinking about Duncan the last few threads.

I have Magic 4th, Duncan 5th and Bird 8th. Also here while I appreciate Magic's 1987 season, I think Duncan's 2003 season was as good if not better. I do believe Magic had more overall better seasons then Duncan though, but at there peak it seems Duncan was a little better once you account for defense. Also the fact he was the only allstar on his team in 2003. People talk about Duncan's comp in 2003 being bad, but at least he had to go thru the 3x defending champs. The Lakers in 1987 played 3 teams that won 42 or less games to get to the finals. Also since it is relatively close, I appreciate what Duncan did for a franchise like the Spurs.

[ElGee]

I'm a big Duncan fan, but why is his peak being considered better than Magic's or Bird's? I consider LeBron in their class too, but for the sake of historical perspective, let's leave him out. Magic and Bird are traditionally ranked ahead of Duncan. They do not have a longevity edge over Duncan. So by definition, they definitely have better peaks, no?

This obviously doesn't apply to the people who do have Duncan over Magic and Bird (I know Dr Positivity does)...but C-izMe and JordansBulls, you guys have Duncan ranked over both of them all time right? Because it's not like Magic and Bird saw big dropoffs in their non-peak years.

I can't speak for JB but I have Duncan well over Bird. Mainly because I value the PS a lot and Bird has more than a few PS failures. IMO Magic would be the GOAT if it wasn't for his HIV (I still have him 3rd or 4th on my list). Duncan is 5th or 6th depending on how I rank him and Shaq.

My next vote will probably be Magic, Dr. I, Bird, or Lebron. I'm not too sure because I've been thinking about Duncan the last few threads.

This confuses me. Would you not have Bird higher than all these guys if he were healthier? And if that's the case, why are you trying to use it as a logical position in a peak comparison (where Bird was plenty healthy)??

@ Colts -- the word "dominating" there is key.

[C-izMe]

I'm pretty sure he was asking about my all time list. On my all time list Bird is barely top 10.

[colts18]

This confuses me. Would you not have Bird higher than all these guys if he were healthier? And if that's the case, why are you trying to use it as a logical position in a peak comparison (where Bird was plenty healthy)??

@ Colts -- the word "dominating" there is key.

You can't reward Bird for being unhealthy. Fact is he was injury prone not to mention he should be punished heavily for being dumb enough to start a bar fight during the playoffs. Just imagine the outrage if LeBron sucked in the playoffs because of that. I like looking at facts, not hypotheticals, and facts are that Bird sucked and cost his team in 88 vs. the Pistons.



Yeah the key word is dominating but close wins vs. good teams was rated better than close wins vs. bad teams. You can't get a 9 SRS vs. good teams by winning every game by 2 or 3. SRS takes into account those blowouts against good teams so they are rewarded in SRS with the blowouts and less rewarded for the close games.

[MacGill]

This confuses me. Would you not have Bird higher than all these guys if he were healthier? And if that's the case, why are you trying to use it as a logical position in a peak comparison (where Bird was plenty healthy)??

@ Colts -- the word "dominating" there is key.

You can't reward Bird for being unhealthy. Fact is he was injury prone not to mention he should be punished heavily for being dumb enough to start a bar fight during the playoffs. Just imagine the outrage if LeBron sucked in the playoffs because of that. I like looking at facts, not hypotheticals, and facts are that Bird sucked and cost his team in 88 vs. the Pistons.



Yeah the key word is dominating but close wins vs. good teams was rated better than close wins vs. bad teams. You can't get a 9 SRS vs. good teams by winning every game by 2 or 3. SRS takes into account those blowouts against good teams so they are rewarded in SRS with the blowouts and less rewarded for the close games.

Did this happen in 86?

[JordansBulls]

This confuses me. Would you not have Bird higher than all these guys if he were healthier? And if that's the case, why are you trying to use it as a logical position in a peak comparison (where Bird was plenty healthy)??

@ Colts -- the word "dominating" there is key.

You can't reward Bird for being unhealthy. Fact is he was injury prone not to mention he should be punished heavily for being dumb enough to start a bar fight during the playoffs. Just imagine the outrage if LeBron sucked in the playoffs because of that. I like looking at facts, not hypotheticals, and facts are that Bird sucked and cost his team in 88 vs. the Pistons.



Yeah the key word is dominating but close wins vs. good teams was rated better than close wins vs. bad teams. You can't get a 9 SRS vs. good teams by winning every game by 2 or 3. SRS takes into account those blowouts against good teams so they are rewarded in SRS with the blowouts and less rewarded for the close games.

Did this happen in 86?

No, it had to be 85. It was a year he did not win it all.