Michael Jordan not greatest according to John Salley

[seoulman]

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=8268528

I don't know how much I agree or disagree with but it was interesting and entertaining.

[Matt6288]

10 more points a game?....I don't think so lol he'll get better looks so his FG% will go up but he will get less shots so his PPG will probably stay about the same.

[semi-sentient]

There are plenty of people who don't view Jordan as the GOAT. Some side with Russell due to his defensive impact and being the leader of the greatest dynasty in NBA history. Some side with Kareem due to his longevity and impact as a two-way big. Some side with Magic or Bird for their impact on his teammates. That's why they are viewed as the "Immortal Six". They all have arguments for GOAT, some stronger than others.

I hope he wasn't implying that Kobe and LeBron are as good though. Jordan was better than both, and no amount of winning that they do from here on out is going to change that. There's no conversation to be had if/when Kobe gets his 6th ring either.

[b shaw20]

Spider is on crack....

the moment he claimed Magic, Bird, Kareem and Zeke were all were better than MJ he lost me.

Magic is my basketball God and I despised seeing Jordan take the torch from Magic and Bird. I grew a Magic fan and I followed basketball since 1979, but I will keep this real --- MJ was in another league than these guys.

And they would be the first to tell you that.

Spider, how did forcing MJ left and keeping him from the basket work out for you when you were swept?

Just sayin'..

[Anklebreaker702]

Spider is on crack....

the moment he claimed Magic, Bird, Kareem and Zeke were all were better than MJ he lost me.

Magic is my basketball God and I despised seeing Jordan take the torch from Magic and Bird. I grew a Magic fan and I followed basketball since 1979, but I will keep this real --- MJ was in another league than these guys.

And they would be the first to tell you that.

Spider, how did forcing MJ left and keeping him from the basket work out for you when you were swept?

Just sayin'..

Ask spider the same question when he has MJ on the bench crying from losing to the Pistons 2 years straight. Jordan was on another level with scoring, I will give him that, but Magic still carries GOAT for me. He impacted the game in many more ways than scoring.

[Stebo_SSK]

I've never been a big fan of MJ. Just wasnt but how with a str8 face can you say that Magic Johnson was better than MJ? Based on what? MJ was a the coldest player to ever touch a ball outside of 81 pt Kobe. Magic was great top 5 great but he was no means better than Mike. Less of a scorer, less rings and definitely a less overall impact on future players.

[ennui]

My top 3 is in constant flux between MJ/KAJ/BR. KAJ is often #1 for me.

[Imadogg]

I hope he wasn't implying that Kobe and LeBron are as good though. Jordan was better than both, and no amount of winning that they do from here on out is going to change that. There's no conversation to be had if/when Kobe gets his 6th ring either.

Kobe can't be as good, it's too late. Lebron can, but I don't think he will

Ask spider the same question when he has MJ on the bench crying from losing to the Pistons 2 years straight. Jordan was on another level with scoring, I will give him that, but Magic still carries GOAT for me. He impacted the game in many more ways than scoring.

What about Tragic Johnson, did that never happen.

Also MJ only scored, ok. And Magic had GOAT level defense

[MAMBAEMD]

Magic made everyone around him be the best they could possibly be.
MJ made himself be the best he could possibly be.

They were totally different players. Hard to compare them in a sense.
MJ would probably eat Magic alive in a one-on-0ne game.
But in a team game, I'd take any team with Magic over any team with MJ.

I think Kobe is the closest thing we've had to MJ.
LBJ is a hybrid of MJ and magic.

My vote for GOAT: Magic, without hesitation, because he made everyone on his team better.

[salmahayek]

A LOT of factors going on here...

Jordan was a superior scorer and in a different stratosphere defensively over Magic. Once Jordan got his teammates involved, the rest is history with six titles. Jordan has more titles even though Magic played on better teams. It's a lot easier to make Kareem better than Will Perdue.

However, that said, Magic and the Lakers would have won a lot more titles if not having to play the caliber of teams they did in the '80s. The Rockets when they failed to make The Finals the only two times in the '80s were very good and when the Rockets beat the Lakers in the playoffs those two seasons, they made The Finals themselves, losing to the Celtics twice.

In The Finals, the Lakers lost once each to the Sixers, Celtics, and Pistons. Jordan and the Bulls never really encountered a team in The Finals as good as those teams...maybe the Trailblazers that one year. Had the Lakers played the quality of teams the Bulls did for their titles, we'd probably be talking about a Lakers run in the '80s to rival the Celtics of the '60s.

Plus, I still think the Lakers could have three-peated in '89 had Magic and Scott not gotten injured at Camp Riles. That team was clicking on all cylinders and undefeated in the playoffs until The Finals injuries, so Magic is equal to or very close with Jordan in terms of championships despite being down one due to the injury situation and level of Finals competition, IMO.

That said, even though Magic is my favorite player, I think when looking at the two players, Jordan ekes him out mainly due to the defensive play and that Jordan never played on teams as good as the Lakers.

I'm old school, so I'm still in the big men making the biggest impact on the game, so I'd likely go Kareem, Wilt, and Russell as my top three, then Jordan and Magic. The O and Bird would have to be somewhere in my next five along with Shaq and Kobe and perhaps Hakeem. I'm probably leaving someone out...

[b shaw20]

Magic made everyone around him be the best they could possibly be.
MJ made himself be the best he could possibly be.

They were totally different players. Hard to compare them in a sense.
MJ would probably eat Magic alive in a one-on-0ne game.
But in a team game, I'd take any team with Magic over any team with MJ.

I think Kobe is the closest thing we've had to MJ.
LBJ is a hybrid of MJ and magic.

My vote for GOAT: Magic, without hesitation, because he made everyone on his team better.

then we get into the argument of surrounding cast. Look at it like this, 5 Magics vs 5 MJs, who wins? My money would be on MJs without a shadow of a doubt.

The turning point for me was in 88 (if my memory is right) when they moved Mike to PG and he rolled 10-11 games in a row with double figures in assists. The guy could do whatever he wanted on the court, single handedly destroyed team defenses.

[Stebo_SSK]

Magic made everyone around him be the best they could possibly be.
MJ made himself be the best he could possibly be.

They were totally different players. Hard to compare them in a sense.
MJ would probably eat Magic alive in a one-on-0ne game.
But in a team game, I'd take any team with Magic over any team with MJ.

I think Kobe is the closest thing we've had to MJ.
LBJ is a hybrid of MJ and magic.

My vote for GOAT: Magic, without hesitation, because he made everyone on his team better.

then we get into the argument of surrounding cast. Look at it like this, 5 Magics vs 5 MJs, who wins? My money would be on MJs without a shadow of a doubt.

The turning point for me was in 88 (if my memory is right) when they moved Mike to PG and he rolled 10-11 games in a row with double figures in assists. The guy could do whatever he wanted on the court, single handedly destroyed team defenses.

I cant believe people are really arguing this. Mike has more accolades and titles and overall popular impact than Magic did. This has to be the Laker bias. Had MJ not retired he could have very well won 8 straight titles. Think about that. 8 straight titles in modern day.

[semi-sentient]

^^^ Success has a lot to do with it. Magic is the best offensive player in history, but he wasn't as successful as MJ, nor was he as complete of a player (although Magic's defense gets underrated while Jordan's gets overrated). Greatness isn't about just how good you are though; it's about how much you achieve while being great.

[makaveli_99]

Magic made everyone around him be the best they could possibly be.
MJ made himself be the best he could possibly be.

They were totally different players. Hard to compare them in a sense.
MJ would probably eat Magic alive in a one-on-0ne game.
But in a team game, I'd take any team with Magic over any team with MJ.

I think Kobe is the closest thing we've had to MJ.
LBJ is a hybrid of MJ and magic.

My vote for GOAT: Magic, without hesitation, because he made everyone on his team better.

then we get into the argument of surrounding cast. Look at it like this, 5 Magics vs 5 MJs, who wins? My money would be on MJs without a shadow of a doubt.

The turning point for me was in 88 (if my memory is right) when they moved Mike to PG and he rolled 10-11 games in a row with double figures in assists. The guy could do whatever he wanted on the court, single handedly destroyed team defenses.

I cant believe people are really arguing this. Mike has more accolades and titles and overall popular impact than Magic did. This has to be the Laker bias. Had MJ not retired he could have very well won 8 straight titles. Think about that. 8 straight titles in modern day.

gotta love the laker bias lol... magic was great, but no contest with MJ. I would say about 90%+ say MJ was and is the greatest, the other 10% are probably just salty.

agree with the kobe statement though, he's my fave player, but just not as good as MJ, even if he gets that 6th ring, or 7th for that matter.

[b shaw20]

Spider is on crack....

the moment he claimed Magic, Bird, Kareem and Zeke were all were better than MJ he lost me.

Magic is my basketball God and I despised seeing Jordan take the torch from Magic and Bird. I grew a Magic fan and I followed basketball since 1979, but I will keep this real --- MJ was in another league than these guys.

And they would be the first to tell you that.

Spider, how did forcing MJ left and keeping him from the basket work out for you when you were swept?

Just sayin'..

Ask spider the same question when he has MJ on the bench crying from losing to the Pistons 2 years straight. Jordan was on another level with scoring, I will give him that, but Magic still carries GOAT for me. He impacted the game in many more ways than scoring.

Ankle,

I tend to agree with much of what you post on here. In this case, its just a matter of opinion. I too hold Magic as my favorite all time player, by far..... BUT when you get into the arguement of who is the better all around basketball player, I can honestly say Mike, hands down.

your statement "he impacted the game in so many ways" is true no doubt. I get it,.. no one led, quarterbacked, organized, controlled tempo, kept people involved, coached on the floorm, etc better than Magic.

But never in my life have I seen a player who always found a way to impact and decide games the way MJ did. He put up numbers despite being double and tripled team all the time. And defensively, he always seemed to hold opponents to numbers below their average. And when the lights were on, in the finals the guy never lost.

I ask the question yet again, 5 Magics vs 5 Jordans -- who wins?

[Stebo_SSK]

5 Magics vs 5 MJs really is a useless question. Of course 5 Magics would win due to more versatility. Doesnt decide anything as far as this debate and is a moot point.

[b shaw20]

5 Magics vs 5 MJs really is a useless question. Of course 5 Magics would win due to more versatility. Doesnt decide anything as far as this debate and is a moot point.

I think the question is valid because basketball is a team game and there is the factor of who your teammates are.

"Of course Magics would win"... smh, ...

I would take getting to the rim at will vs baby skyhooks all day.

The fact that there is even a debate on this is ridiculous... Magic himself would say this.

[Tee212]

actually double and triple team each magic make him kick out to another magic for an open brick and its an mj race for an easy basket all day. easy win for mj

[Kilroy]

I was a huge basketball fan for all of Magic's career, and watched most of MJ's games...

Personally, I thought MJ was slightly over-hyped. I really didn't see him do a whole lot different than DrJ before him. He had much more of a killer instinct than DrJ but their style of play was very similar.

Then again, Bird had the coldest Killer instinct ever...

They invented friendly whistles for MJ too... Nobody outside of pre-Colorado Kobe ever got friendlier whistles than MJ at his height...

Like Salley said, defense was different back then. Not only the hand-check thing, but their were only a few teams that really played lock down D... Pistons being one of them. And even then, teams have only started putting a real emphasis on perimeter D the last 10 or so seasons. Teams start doubling guys like Kobe/LeBron/Durant, etc out at the 3pt line at times now, that just didn't happen very often to MJ.

All that said, MJ is still maybe the greatest ever... I just have a hard time saying he's clear-cut better than the other guys in the conversation, because in many ways it apples/oranges...
How do you compare an over-sized SG to an over-sized PG or a couple ginormous C's?

So all in all, I think "Greatest Ever" is more of a roster than a single guy...

Magic was the most complete offensive Basketball Player I've ever seen... Handles, passing, scoring... No other player I've ever watched could play so many aspects of the game at "Best in the Game" levels if he put his mind to it... If the team was hitting their shots, he'd assist them at top 1 or 2 ever rates, if they weren't hitting their shots or teams were stopping them, he was a threat to score 40 any given night, playing whatever position he needed to. If they needed stops, he'd poke the ball away, if they needed rebounds the ball would come down in Magic's hands... It was uncanny... And he made it look so easy that I think a lot of people underestimate how great he truly was. That and his HIV thing, I think sort of hurts him in people's minds... He didn't get the chance to ride off in the sunset like MJ, taking a couple 'Victory Tours' to solidify his historical placement. That and when Magic was playing, nobody was calling MJ the greatest ever... That took Magic's retirement and 'scandal'... And a pretty heavy east-coast bias from the media for several years...

Kareem was maybe one of the most unstoppable players ever... He had maybe the greatest combination of physical gifts, BBall IQ/aptitude, and killer instinct ever. A dominant and unstoppable presence on both ends of the floor, it's hard to argue against him as greatest ever... It basically comes down to personal preference...

Personally, I think Wilt probably still has the greatest single argument for Goat to this day... The fact that most fans didn't get his every highlight beaten into their heads like MJ, Kobe, LeBron, and to a lesser extent Magic and Bird, I think hurts his legacy...
But at the end of the day, you take anything great anybody has done to this day in Basketball and compare it to Wilt's stats and with the exception of Magic's passing, and Kareem's scoring longevity, Wilt's already done it and maybe done it better... Even though we don't have complete stats on him, most people would agree that if we did, they'd be just as impressive as the rest of his stats... Even with assists, he led the league in '67-'68 and was top 5 2 other seasons...

So the greatest ever debate is like Greek Gods to me... There isn't just one, and there really doesn't have to be unless you're so myopic and insecure that you can't handle not having a single greatest.

[Stebo_SSK]

I will admit that alot of what makes MJ take the "greatest ever" title was his pop culture impact. Even to this day he is the most recognize sports figure in almost any sport. Magic is very popular himself but MJ's impact was on a whole 'nother level.