#8 Highest Peak of All Time (Magic '87 wins)

[Dr Positivity]

Vote 2003 Duncan

[therealbig3]

DRAPM clearly supports LeBron in 09 over LeBron in 12.

[Doctor MJ]

As I still have LeBron below Erving (not even including other candidates), I suppose I should just wait until the next thread goes up.

Nah. It just happens that most of the block that are voting LeBron all happen to be on now. Go ahead and make your voice heard...it's likely you won't be the only one backing that candidate.

Like before, my vote will almost certainly come from the group of Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett or Magic Johnson. I could see getting behind Walton as well, though I have him below the previous three. LeBron and Dr. J are definitely behind the previous three, though they'd make a good debate with Walton for me.

Yup. I wouldn't even consider LeBron the favorite here, it's just that the contingent of people who voted him before don't have any reason to delay their vote.

[Doctor MJ]

Speaking of which...

Under the presumption that we have a tie which requires a runoff, my changed vote is in red below:

Vote: Magic '87

Vote: LeBron '09

I'll say again that I don't consider him to have a big edge here. I know others have attempted to convince me to change, and it hasn't happened yet, so that's probably discouraging, but I've really yet to have any vote be an easy one for me.

One thing I will reiterate though: When i say that LeBron '12 learned things that LeBron '09 didn't know, these are not things he learned in response to what happened in '09. What LeBron learned was how to better work with the Heatle talent, not how to patch up a weakness Orlando exploited in him...because they didn't really exploit any weakness in him.

Now as mentioned, I consider LeBron & Erving's peak seasons to be very close siblings, so Erving's likely my next vote.

Other guys are on my mind. Magic certainly. Thinking a lot about Walton though. For all his injury-proneness, he was actually playing more in the '77 playoffs than Magic was in '87. He was playing on a team that by that time was really playing at a top tier level, which means there's no real ceiling on what he can do team-wise while having extreme impact.

As always, the concern with him is the uncertainty based on brevity, but there's not a lot of guys left who I can really swallow putting ahead of him.

[therealbig3]

I completely don't get the "those guys were voted in without discussion". there were multiple cases made from multiple posters for Hakeem/Kareem/Bird. if you want I can re-post those cases. I mean I thought we respect each other's work and read those posts. if I was reg8 or PTB fan I wouldn't copy all those articles for nothing. the reason why there wasn't much of a debate was because LeBron's opponents didn't make a case at all or made it in a very limited way against those players. you had plenty of time to respond to those pro Hakeem/Kareem/Bird arguments. you opted to stay silent instead. now you're acting as if those guys got randomly voted in ? are you kiddin me ?

Well, I'm pretty much the main one who had somewhat of a gripe with Hakeem, because I really didn't think he separated himself from Duncan or KG, and I DID make arguments against him...without a response. I posted how his production seemed to be inferior to Duncan, and from the impact data we have for Hakeem (with/without mainly), he's inferior to Duncan. And using ElGee's SIO, they're about equal. I was trying to make statistical arguments for Duncan over Hakeem (and I had both of them going later), and the only responses I got back were narratives about Hakeem's playoff run and the eye test. At the very least, I didn't see any evidence that Hakeem was better than Magic or Bird at their peaks.

And responses were made to Kareem. drza made a post saying that he didn't feel LeBron should go over Duncan or KG because of their two-way impact...but Kareem's defense was called into question by Doctor MJ and ElGee...although they said he might be getting underrated, they said he was an outstanding scorer, but his offensive impact was still less than the best guards, and his defense was clearly worse than the best big man defenders. As such, why couldn't LeBron, who was better offensively and you could make the case was better defensively, be ranked ahead of him (I believe Doctor MJ posted this question)? fatal9 was the only one who kind of made a response, and he was trying to defend KAJ's defense with a good post about how the Lakers did worse in multiple areas without him...but that just proved that he was a decent impact defensive player, and he even said that he agrees that KAJ was a step down from the best big man defenders.

So it's not like there was a response back to LeBron's case over Kareem's.

I'm not losing sleep over these picks, and like other people have said and like I've agreed with, everyone is so close that you could make a legitimate case for one over any of the others. But the best part of this project is the discussion, and Hakeem/Kareem kind of came out of left field for me personally, and there wasn't much talk about them. For example, I would have loved to see arguments for Hakeem/Kareem against Magic/Bird...I don't believe anyone really made those cases, even though Magic and Bird were already spoken for and had their cases laid out already. So I figured if new candidates were going to be discussed, they should be compared to the other ones being mentioned. Maybe I just missed it, but mainly what I saw were short discussions about Hakeem/Kareem vs LeBron, some general stuff about how good they were, and that was basically it.

[Dr Positivity]

And responses were made to Kareem. drza made a post saying that he didn't feel LeBron should go over Duncan or KG because of their two-way impact...but Kareem's defense was called into question by Doctor MJ and ElGee...although they said he might be getting underrated, they said he was an outstanding scorer, but his offensive impact was still less than the best guards, and his defense was clearly worse than the best big man defenders. As such, why couldn't LeBron, who was better offensively and you could make the case was better defensively, be ranked ahead of him (I believe Doctor MJ posted this question)?

Isn't this true for Shaq 2000 then? Not as valuable offensively as players like Bird and Magic, but not the best defensive big either? Like Shaq, I don't think it's necessarily true that Kareem's offensive impact was less than Lebron's. Kareem is putting up 35ppg .65 TS% in the 77 playoffs. His floor spacing is one of the best ever for a center, if not the best. He was getting called the 2nd best big man passer in the game by the late 70s behind Walton. IMO Kareem as a scorer > 2009 Lebron as a scorer, like a super version of 2011 Dirk was a better scorer than 2011 Lebron - the ability to have a super polished skill level is huge against lockdown defenses. Players who rely on their power are more likely to get exposed. Lebron also had the pound the ball while Kareem could fit off the ball. I think the question then is whether Lebron's playmaking made up for being a worse scoring option. That's definitely a debate that could go either way.

As for the defense, I think 2012 Lebron is pretty close to 77 Kareem in D. 2009 Lebron though? I don't remember thinking of him this highly defensively. I think Wade taking pressure off him offensively has definitely helped him step up a level defensively, to go along with general experience improving him on that end.

Like I said I can see the argument for Lebron over Kareem, but also vice versa, personally I think Kareem was a bit more flawless

I'm surprised at the lukewarm response to Kareem's peak in this project. I had thought people's impressions of Kareem was that he had a GOAT peak case and was from a technical perspective arguably the "best" player in skillset ever, but the biggest reason he got put behind Jordan and Russell because they had an amazing clutch playoff record while Kareem was far more inconsistent in the playoffs + some people freak out about his lack of titles as the alpha + some people (like me) think it's a concern that he didn't have an intangible connection with teammates that led to stuff like the Lakers being disjointed and Dantley'd before Magic pulled them together. I didn't think many people considered his skillset to be less than "GOAT conversation" caliber, at his peak, or that many thought of peak Kareem as that much lesser than say, peak Shaq

[ElGee]

I completely don't get the "those guys were voted in without discussion". there were multiple cases made from multiple posters for Hakeem/Kareem/Bird. if you want I can re-post those cases. I mean I thought we respect each other's work and read those posts. if I was reg8 or PTB fan I wouldn't copy all those articles for nothing. the reason why there wasn't much of a debate was because LeBron's opponents didn't make a case at all or made it in a very limited way against those players. you had plenty of time to respond to those pro Hakeem/Kareem/Bird arguments. you opted to stay silent instead. now you're acting as if those guys got randomly voted in ? are you kiddin me ?

You're totally warping this. In the #6 thread, Colts mentions something about the 77 series v Portland based on 2 games from youtube. There is massive gushing over his scoring (which is like saying Ricky Davis outplayed Steve Nash because he scored 30 and Nash scored 10 -- it's just not a remotely even or accurate way to evaluate these players). NOTE: Colts didn't vote for Kareem! The issue about the scoring is addressed...

Then bast jumps in and seconds the same thought. Dr Positivity then votes Kareem without an explanation. Then SD Chargers says (he would) vote Kareem --he's not on the panel -- to which bast again says his defense wasn't good (with some argumentation). And this is about 71 Kareem...not 77. Meanwhile, bast is arguing against Kareem...then VOTES Kareem 77.

And unless I missed it, drza didn't really say why he voted 77 Kareem. Mufasa never explained it. PTB fan didn't (not sure if he did in an earlier thread?) Then two people switched from 71 to 77 Kareem.

See how Kareem winning came totally out of left field there? There wasn't a clear line of argumentation that could be refuted since I don't thing a single of his voters said "Kareem 77 is my vote over these other players and here is why..."

[Dr Positivity]

I'm really surpised people are dismayed that Kareem got as high as 6th, that's I wouldn't have believed before the project, nothing against someone thinking that way, it's just surprising. So do you guys have Kareem as a barely top 9-10 peak but still top 3-4 all-time because of his longevity??? That's a pretty big gap for his longevity to make up.

As I said in a previous post the length of Kareem's prime is actually not some crazy outlier. '81 is the most obvious place to say it ends - his 12th season. Other 12th seasons: 91 Magic, 08 Kobe, 07 KG, 97 Karl Malone, 96 Hakeem, 68 Russell. Not every one of those players were elite right away, but nevertheless, it's not like he's Stockton assist title-ing them in prime longevity. KG and Kobe are on track to have longevity as impressive as Kareem's even when considering their slow starts. Dirk might very well end up with the best longevity in the history of the NBA, his peak season being in his 13th year already is as far as anyone's gotten in that category, and it wouldn't surprise me if he's dropping 20ppg seasons when he's 40

Kareem is an outlier for having the best post-prime longevity ever. Well, actually he's probably not an outlier anymore because of Kobe and KG, though he gets credit for being elite earlier than them in his career. So the question is, how much do we value what a player does outside of their prime? Some for sure, but I think most of us favor prime on the ATL. If you guys are that out on Kareem's peak as being in the conversation for top 5 ever, it sounds the ATL is where the changes should come

[PTB Fan]

Vote: '03 Duncan

I'll cover the RS this time. As for the PS, you already know that, so it may not be needed. I might do that next time.

Yao Ming's NBA debut ended in an exhibition loss Wednesday night, but the 7-foot-5 center's welcome to the league was a memorable one.

Seconds after entering the game and setting foot on the SBC Center court, Yao took a pass in the low post and made a decisive move to the basket. But as his outstretched right arm rose above the rim, San Antonio 7-footer Tim Duncan, the league's MVP last season, slid over and launched the newest Rocket with a hard body bump that left him sprawled on the floor.

''It's about what I thought it would be,'' Yao said of the physical play after the Spurs rallied for an 80-79 victory. ''I felt like a rookie.''

San Antonio center David Robinson said Yao's initiation, three days after his arrival in the United States, was a good lesson in how the NBA works.

''He's getting thrown right into the fire, and against one of the tallest teams in the league,'' Robinson said. ''It was a good challenge for him tonight.''

Duncan added: ''He handled the ball well and showed some touch. ... He'll end up being a good all-around player, but it always takes time.''

Yao's final line: six points on 1-for-5 shooting from the field and 4-for-4 from the free throw line, four rebounds, four fouls and three turnovers in 13 minutes.

The first of those points came after Duncan roughed him up. Yao, the league's No. 1 draft pick this year, calmly stepped to the line and made two soft, arching free throws that put the Rockets up 28-23.

Five minutes later, as the second quarter was winding down, Yao returned to his spot near the end of the bench. He had added a fadeaway jumper to those foul shots, helping Houston to a 44-38 halftime lead.

But San Antonio battled back from an 11-point second-half deficit for the win.

Duncan finished with 27 points and 13 rebounds, while Stephen Jackson scored 17 points for the Spurs. Cuttino Mobley led the Rockets with 18 points, while Steve Francis added 15 and Eddie Griffin 14.

After sitting out the third quarter, Yao replaced Griffin at 11:10 of the final quarter. Twelve seconds later, the Rockets had a point taken off the scoreboard when Yao stepped into the lane too early on a free throw by Mobley.

He made other mistakes, like rifling a pass to a phantom baseline cutter, but his teammates only had encouragement for him. He leaned way down to listen to some guidance from Francis, and after he picked up his fourth personal by blocking David Robinson, guard Juaquin Hawkins gave him an impromptu footwork lesson.

The 6-8 Jackson ended up with a memory of his own -- dunking over Yao late in the game.

''For him to be under there and me to get him, I'm definitely happy about that,'' Jackson said.

With three minutes remaining, Kelvin Cato came into the game and Yao sat down for the night.

Yao was with China's national team until Oct. 13, when it was upset by South Korea in the Asian Games championship game.

After working out an agreement with the China Basketball Association that will guarantee his home country the right to bring him back for international tournaments, Yao received his visa and reported to the Rockets on Sunday.

With the regular season starting in a week, Yao still has a lot to learn to fit into Houston's offensive and defensive schemes.

''Getting the first-game jitters out of the way is great,'' Rockets coach Rudy Tomjanovich said. ''Everyone is excited about him being here, but now it's time to play basketball. ... My gut feeling is that he will be able to handle this stuff.''

Yao said he was nervous going in, but he eventually settled down and quickly started learning.

''When you watch it on TV it seems really easy,'' he said of the NBA. ''But when you are actually out there playing, it is extremely difficult.''

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=221023024

"Tim Duncan had 23 points and 14 rebounds as the San Antonio Spurs settled Sacramento's perfect home record and ruined Mike Bibby's return, beating the Kings 83-81, Thurdsay night in Sacramento, Calif.

Stephen Jackson scored 18 points as the Spurs followed a victory in Seattle by winning in the NBA's toughest road arena one later. The Kings had won 13 games at Arco Arena where they're 80-14 over the past over the past three seasons, but they gave one of the most lifeless performances in years on the same night their injury-plagued roster became nearly whole.

Sacramento shot less than 35% and never found rhythm. The Spurs were barely better, committing 18 turnovers, but Duncan had another outstanding game and San Antonio hung on by allowing the Kings to make several turnovers and poor shots in the closing minutes."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Gz ... ncan&hl=en

Struggling to find wins, the San Antonio Spurs have temporarily found a solution -- play the Cleveland Cavaliers.

Tim Duncan scored 25 points to lead San Antonio over Cleveland 104-78 Monday night, the Cavaliers' seventh straight loss.

The Spurs, who have won 27 of the last 30 meetings, beat the Cavaliers 90-77 on Saturday in Cleveland even though Duncan was held to a season-low six points because of foul trouble.

''We played the same game as we did in Cleveland and that's a good sign,'' San Antonio coach Gregg Popovich said. ''It's tough to play the same team back-to-back after you beat them the first time. I was pleased with our aggressiveness and tenacity. The bench was terrific. Hopefully, we will continue to improve.''

San Antonio had five players in double figures. Stephen Jackson added 18 points, while Steve Smith and Kevin Willis scored 12 apiece.

Cleveland was led by Zydrunas Ilgauskas, who scored 25 points. Ricky Davis added 19.

''I knew Duncan was going to come out and have a good game tonight,'' Ilgauskas said. ''It's tough to contain a player that good two games in a row. I knew he was motivated to play well. They just made the shots they missed in Cleveland.''

Leading 48-37 at halftime, San Antonio opened the third quarter with a 10-6 run to lead 58-43 on David Robinson's dunk with 6:49 to play in the period.

Cleveland rallied to close the gap to 65-58 on two free throws by Ilgauskas with 36.6 seconds to go.

San Antonio went on a 10-0 run and led 77-58 on a layup by Bruce Bowen with 9:56 remaining in the game.

From there, the Spurs stretched the advantage to as many as 28 points in the fourth quarter and rolled to an easy victory.

''Tonight our turnovers led to points and theirs did not,'' Cleveland coach John Lucas said. ''We are a young team, but I thought we did a lot of good things at points in this game. Their bench hurt us a lot, too. They didn't miss much when they went to their bench.''

Duncan was poked in the right eye by Davis but returned to score 14 first-half points. San Antonio outscored Cleveland 25-14 in the second quarter.

''We really did a much better job of moving the ball around,'' said Duncan, who shot 9-of-16 from the floor and also grabbed nine rebounds. ''They really hurt us in the start of the game, but once we got settled in defensively and took our time, we really started to make things go better.''

The Spurs held Cleveland to only 37.5 percent shooting.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=221118024

"With plenty of blocked shots and high-percentage field goal opportunities, the San Antonio Spurs ended the second-longest winning streak of the NBA season.

Tim Duncan scored 29 points, grabbed 10 rebounds and blocked eight shots to lead the San Antonio Spurs over Philadelphia 98-93 Friday night, snapping the 76ers' eight-game winning streak.

San Antonio blocked 16 shots and shot 56 percent in defeating Philadelphia for the 16th consecutive time at home.

``We did a good job playing defense for 48 minutes,'' San Antonio coach Gregg Popovich said. ``The whole team responded defensively and that's important to do for 48 minutes. If we hadn't shot the way we did, it would have been a tough game.

Stephen Jackson came off the bench to score 24 points, while David Robinson added 13 and Tony Parker 10.

``Tonight we did a good job of playing hard all the way through the game,'' Duncan said. ``Defensively we did a great job as a team. We were unselfish tonight. We shared the ball and moved the basketball well and that got guys some great looks.''

Philadelphia, which hadn't lost since Nov. 16, was led by Allen Iverson with 21 points, but he shot only 9-of-30. Keith Van Horn added 15 and Eric Snow 14.

``Give San Antonio credit, they did a great job just shutting us down,'' Philadelphia coach Larry Brown said. ``Their blocks really hurt us, and they got to the foul line a lot tonight. However, I am pleased with the effort that we made, and was pleased with the way that we finished the ballgame.''

After taking an 80-68 lead into the fourth quarter, San Antonio maintained its advantage behind eight points from Jackson and led 90-78 on Robinson's layup.

After Snow cut the lead to 90-82 on a jump shot with 4:16 remaining, both teams misfired on several scoring opportunities before San Antonio answered with four free throws, the last two by Duncan with 1:41 to play gave the Spurs a 94-82 lead.

Philadelphia would get no closer than five points the rest of the way as both teams emptied their benches.

``I thought Tim and David did a great job of shutting down our inside penetration,'' Iverson said. ``I got into the lane a couple of times, but it was tough getting shots up and making plays. They did a really good job of controlling the lane.''

``It was a team effort to try and cover Iverson,'' said Jackson, who shot 9-for-12. ``We were able to make him take some tough shots over our big guys and we were able to get some blocks on him.''

The Spurs, the NBA's top defensive team, dominated the game inside. The Spurs not only blocked 16 shots, they also outscored the 76ers 54-34 in the paint.

``That was big for us,'' said Duncan, who was 15-for-20 at the free throw line. ``We knew Allen was going to get a lot of shots and they love to drive the ball to the basket. I thought we did a great job of help-side defense tonight.''

San Antonio opened the third quarter with a 10-2 run and led 59-44 on a short jump shot by Steve Smith with 9:52 to play in the period. Duncan had 12 points in the third quarter, 10 coming at the free throw line.

Behind 14 points from Duncan, San Antonio led 49-42 at halftime. The Spurs were able to build the lead behind 21-of-37 shooting from the floor.

``We played great defense overall and played that way for 48 minutes,'' said Robinson, who had 12 rebounds and five blocked shots. ``We've been playing well enough to win all year long but sometimes our concentration lapses, but not tonight. If we had been doing that all year we would have a better record right now.''

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap/_/id/22120 ... onio-spurs

"Boston Celtics forwards Paul Pierce and Antoine Walker on Wednesday were named the Eastern Conference co-Players of the Month while San Antonio forward Tim Duncan received the honor as Western Conference Player of the Month for games played in December.


Pierce averaged 27.7 points, 6.6 rebounds, 3.3 assists, and 2.06 steals while Walker added 23.4 points, 9.3 rebounds, 4.9 assists and 1.13 steals in leading the Celtics to an 11-5 record. Duncan led the Spurs to an 11-3 record by averaging 26.7 points, 13.1 rebounds, 3.4 assists, and 2.64 blocks

Tim Duncan, San Antonio
Dec. 12 vs. Toronto: Had 28 points and 13 rebounds in 108-95 win over the visiting Raptors.
Dec. 14 at Phoenix: Had 32 points, 19 rebounds and five blocks in 105-93 victory.
Dec. 26 vs. Dallas: Scored a career-high 53 points while adding 11 rebounds, four assists and three blocks in 126-123 OT loss to the Mavericks.
Dec. 30 at Memphis: Had 27 points, 18 rebounds, four assists and seven blocks in 83-79 victory over the Grizzlies.
Leads the NBA with 24 double-doubles on the season.
Currently ranks second in rebounding (13.1 per game), sixth in scoring (25.6), fourth in blocks (2.89) and tied for fifth in minutes (40.9)."

http://www.nba.com/news/pom_dec2001.html

"Tim Duncan had 28 points and 20 rebounds as the San Antonio Spurs became the first team in NBA History to win seven consecutive road games on one road trip with a 103-95 victory over the Los Angeles Lakers on Friday night.

Kobe Bryant scored 44 points -- his eight straight game with at least 35 points -- but it wasn't enough for the Lakers to beat San Antonio in a match up of two striking teams. It was Bryant's 11th game of 40-plus points this season.

Shaquille O'Neal had 21 points, but only 5 rebounds for the Lakers, who had their seven-game winning streak snapped and lost to the Spurs for the third time this season. He missed the first two games while recovering from foot surgery."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8w ... ncan&hl=en

"Tim Duncan was too much for the Orlando Magic's beleaguered corps of big men. Duncan had 23 points, 17 rebounds and six assists, and his put-back off his own miss with 4 seconds left gave the San Antonio Spurs a 109-108 victory over Orlando on Friday night.

The Magic had a chance to win, but Tracy McGrady's 17-footer fell short at the buzzer. McGrady scored 12 of his 35 points in the fourth quarter, topping the 30-point mark for the seventh straight game.

Both teams competed real hard; we just happened to make the last shot, I guess," Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "Lots of games come down to that. We were just fortunate enough to make it."

McGrady's jumper with 13.5 seconds to play put the Magic ahead by one, but Orlando couldn't keep Duncan off the boards as he hit his second game-winning shot in a week. Last Friday in Utah, Duncan backed down Karl Malone before hitting a turnaround jumper as the horn sounded.

"On my move, I got hit in the eye and didn't think I was going to get it off," said Duncan, who had nine of the Spurs' 16 offensive rebounds. "I just kind of threw it up there. I just followed it."

"In that situation, we have to make him earn it at the free throw line," said Orlando center Andrew DeClercq, who blamed himself for not fouling Duncan.

David Robinson scored a season-high 20 points, including two go-ahead free throws with 26.9 seconds to play, as the Spurs had six players score in double figures. Tony Parker also scored 20, and his 3-pointer with 53 seconds to go gave the Spurs a 105-104 lead. Parker finished with a career-high 13 assists and Emanuel Ginobili added a season-high 14 points.

After DeClercq sank a short jump hook over Robinson at the 39.6-second mark, Robinson responded with a strong drive to the basket and Darrell Armstrong grabbed him to prevent the easy basket. San Antonio sank 19 of 22 free throws for the game, although Robinson's pair were the team's only fourth-quarter foul shots.

In two games since sitting out a few days with a tight back, Robinson has averaged 16 points and 10 rebounds.

"A couple of days ago, before (Robinson) got on the plane, he told me he was playing whether I liked it or not," Popovich said. "We would've had a tough time without him."

The Spurs trailed 104-100 with 1:32 remaining, but Robinson dunked off Duncan's lob and Parker sank a 3 from the top of the key after McGrady missed a long shot he took with time on the shot clock. Against Bruce Bowen's defense, McGrady shot 15-for-36.

"It seemed like Tracy had about 49 points or so, but he had to work his butt off for it and he had to shoot a lot of shots," Popovich said. "Bruce made him work all night long. He does that night in and night out, and he's been doing that all year long."

The Magic were hurt at times by McGrady's absences, as coach Doc Rivers has made it a priority recently to rest his superstar. McGrady played 35 minutes after averaging more than 43 minutes in five contests entering the week; he played 38 in a win over Cleveland on Wednesday.

San Antonio took a 14-point lead midway through the second quarter behind a 20-3 run, and it appeared the Spurs were going to run away. Orlando's defense was on the floor in theory only, giving up wide-open dunks and 3-pointers. When Malik Rose's uncontested jam put San Antonio up 44-34, Rivers called a timeout, a look of utter disbelief on his face.

After surrendering two more point-blank baskets, the Magic finally went to work up as McGrady's thunderous baseline reverse jam brought the crowd to life. Mike Miller followed with a three-point play and technical foul shot, after Spurs coach Gregg Popovich argued with officials, cutting San Antonio's lead to 50-44 with 3:19 left before the break.

McGrady closed the half with six more points, and Orlando trailed 54-52 at intermission.

"The way we played those guys, it gives us confidence going in to the next few games," said McGrady, who also had seven rebounds and six assists. "Actually, I don't feel as bad as I thought I would. We played our (butts) off."

"Tim Duncan had 32 points and 12 rebounds, including a clinching 3 pointer in the final minute, as the San Antonio Spurs won their fifth straight with 92-90 victory over the New Orleans Hornets on Sunday night.

Duncan's late 3, which came quickly off an inbounds play, gave San Antonio a 91-86 lead after P.J Brown missed a shot he normally makes -- an open 14-foot jumper that could have tied the game.

Duncan set up the shot -- his sixth 3-pointer of the season-- by diving after a loose ball and called timeout before being tied up with Baron Davis.

New Orleans had the momentum up to that point, having erased an 84-75 deficit with an 11-2 run to tie the game at 86 with 2:15 left."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=_t ... ncan&hl=en

"Tim Duncan scored 21 points and grabbed 21 rebounds, and Tony Parker added 21 points, 10 in the fourth quarter, as San Antonio held off New Jersey, 92-78, on Thursday in San Antonio.

The Nets, who lost their fifth in six games, cut the Spurs' margin 83-77 with 1 minute and 41 seconds left on consecutive jumpers by Jason Collins and Kenyon Martin. But San Antonio finished with a 9-1 run capped by a three pointer by Duncan at the buzzer.

The Spurs, who allowed Phoenix to shot 59% in a loss Tuesday night, limited the Nets to 36.6%. Jason Kidd shot 4 for 19 for 11 points, about half of his regular season average, but he had 13 assists."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=9q ... ncan&hl=en

"Tim Duncan of the San Antonio Spurs is the winner of the Maurice Podoloff Trophy as the NBA’s Most Valuable Player for the second straight season, the NBA announced Sunday.

The five-time NBA All-Star finished the season averaging 23.3 points (seventh in NBA), 12.9 rebounds (third) and 2.93 blocks (third) in 81 games. Duncan turned in 58 double-double (points-rebounds) performances this season, including a league-high six 20-plus point and 20-plus rebound outings. On March 21 he scored his 10,000th career point becoming the 13th fastest player in NBA history to score at least 10,000 points and grab at least 5,000 rebounds.

The 7-foot, 260-pound forward totaled 962 points in MVP balloting, including 60 of a possible 119 first-place votes, from a panel of sportswriters and broadcasters throughout the United States and Canada. Players were awarded 10 points for each first-place vote, seven points for each second-place vote, five for third, three for fourth and one for each fifth-place vote received.

This season, Duncan led the Spurs to a 60-22 overall mark, which tied for the best record in the NBA with the Dallas Mavericks, and their fourth Midwest Division title during his six-year NBA career. San Antonio also earned the top seed in the Western Conference playoffs and home-court advantage throughout the postseason. He is the second San Antonio Spurs player to win the MVP award, joining teammate David Robinson who was so honored for the 1994-95 season.

The first overall selection in the 1997 Draft by the Spurs, Duncan joins an elite list of only 10 players in NBA history to collect multiple MVP awards: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (six-time winner), Michael Jordan (five), Bill Russell (five), Wilt Chamberlain (four), Larry Bird (three), Magic Johnson (three), Moses Malone (three), Bob Pettit (two) and Karl Malone (two). Duncan is the first back-to-back winner since Jordan in 1990-91 and 1991-92.

A five-time recipient of the NBA’s Western Conference Player of the Week Award, Duncan scored 30 or more points 16 times and 20 or more 56 times during the 2002-03 season. He hit his second career regular season triple-double (third overall) vs. the Los Angeles Clippers on March 14 finishing with 24 points, 15 rebounds and 10 assists in 34 minutes of play. Duncan also collected 25 rebounds on February 1, the league season-high this year.

On Feb. 11, Duncan was selected to play for the 2003 USA Basketball Men’s Senior National Team that will compete in the 2003 FIBA Men’s Olympic Qualifying Tournament in San Juan, Puerto Rico.
Voted as a starter in this year’s All-Star Game, Duncan scored 19 points and grabbed 15 rebounds in a 155-145 double overtime West victory on February 9 at Atlanta’s Philips Arena.

Along with his two MVP Awards, Duncan has also collected the 1997-98 Rookie of the Year, the 1999 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player, the co-MVP of the 2000 NBA All-Star Game and the 2001-02 NBA IBM Award during his six-year pro career.

The NBA MVP trophy is named in honor of the late Maurice Podoloff, the first commissioner of the NBA who served from 1946 until his retirement in 1963. Attached are the voting results for the 2002-03 NBA Most Valuable Player Award."

[Doctor MJ]

I'm really surpised people are dismayed that Kareem got as high as 6th, that's I wouldn't have believed before the project, nothing against someone thinking that way, it's just surprising. So do you guys have Kareem as a barely top 9-10 peak but still top 3-4 all-time because of his longevity??? That's a pretty big gap for his longevity to make up.

I can't be sure I speak for everyone, but I'm absolutely not dismayed in any way that Kareem got 6th. Doesn't shock me at all, and this is part of the reason why I noted, but didn't sound the alarm when the strategery seemed to be popping up with him.

While I personally would rate guys like LeBron & Magic ahead of Kareem, by no means did I think it was a given that the majority thought that way, and I'm guessing many feel the same way and are just MMQBing the Kareem thread because it's more data to analyze about the concerning trends here.

Re: Big gap to make up. Kareem's longevity is AMAZING, and keep in mind that I ranked Magic 4th & 5th on my GOAT list. Kareem's Showtime career is basically just getting started after he's already had a superstar peak at least as long as Bird & Magic. That is not something I take lightly.

[Doctor MJ]

Isn't this true for Shaq 2000 then? Not as valuable offensively as players like Bird and Magic, but not the best defensive big either?

I consider peak Shaq's impact to be bigger on both ends. To me he really was the best player on both sides of the ball at his peak.

[ElGee]

I'm surprised he went that high, yes, but the previous post was about the voting process, not the result (it could have happened in the 15th thread and I'd say the same thing.) WIthout devolving into a top-100 argument, I'll just simply say that you continue to frame peak-longevity in a black-and-white way and not everyone sees it this way. (I'd suggest most people have a hard time with this issue, period, because they don't understand value added in a single year.)

I care about value added over a career, and there is no black-and-white "prime v out of prime" measurement for that. Miller's career is nearly twice as valuable as Walton's to me. But Wade's career is more valuable than Stockton's.

There are no rules about prime, post-prime, consistency, No. of years, etc. Some players are wonderfully consistent and it gets them over shorter-tenured guys. Others? Not so much. With Kareem, he was an MVP level player the second he stepped in the league (he was a top-5 player in the world IMO while still in college). He played at that level for 12 years. To me, Kareem's final 8 years are essentially identical in value to Bill Walton's career. Kareem has 71-74, 76-77 and 79-80 as 7 stellar years. If you view these years as close to peak Shaq, it follows you'd have Kareem as GOAT, probably with ease.

[ElGee]

Can all the Tim Duncan voters explain why his peak is higher than Kevin Garnett's? Can they explain why they are voting for Duncan 03 and not Duncan 02? Can they do this without using isolated box score stats...because I don't find these things obvious at all.

[PTB Fan]

I completely don't get the "those guys were voted in without discussion". there were multiple cases made from multiple posters for Hakeem/Kareem/Bird. if you want I can re-post those cases. I mean I thought we respect each other's work and read those posts. if I was reg8 or PTB fan I wouldn't copy all those articles for nothing. the reason why there wasn't much of a debate was because LeBron's opponents didn't make a case at all or made it in a very limited way against those players. you had plenty of time to respond to those pro Hakeem/Kareem/Bird arguments. you opted to stay silent instead. now you're acting as if those guys got randomly voted in ? are you kiddin me ?

You're totally warping this. In the #6 thread, Colts mentions something about the 77 series v Portland based on 2 games from youtube. There is massive gushing over his scoring (which is like saying Ricky Davis outplayed Steve Nash because he scored 30 and Nash scored 10 -- it's just not a remotely even or accurate way to evaluate these players). NOTE: Colts didn't vote for Kareem! The issue about the scoring is addressed...

Then bast jumps in and seconds the same thought. Dr Positivity then votes Kareem without an explanation. Then SD Chargers says (he would) vote Kareem --he's not on the panel -- to which bast again says his defense wasn't good (with some argumentation). And this is about 71 Kareem...not 77. Meanwhile, bast is arguing against Kareem...then VOTES Kareem 77.

And unless I missed it, drza didn't really say why he voted 77 Kareem. Mufasa never explained it. PTB fan didn't (not sure if he did in an earlier thread?) Then two people switched from 71 to 77 Kareem.

See how Kareem winning came totally out of left field there? There wasn't a clear line of argumentation that could be refuted since I don't thing a single of his voters said "Kareem 77 is my vote over these other players and here is why..."

This is my post from #5 highest peak thread.

I'm considering to vote for either '77 Kareem, '03 Duncan, '86 Bird, '87 Magic, '77 Walton and '76 Dr J now. Oh.. and '95 Hakeem. I'll think this through a bit. I'm leaning on Kareem's 77 season as my #1 choice, but I wouldn't mind if anyone from the above mentioned guys takes it home.

So I said I'd consider Kareem.

I'll also say this. I'll take '77 Kareem as an example. We voted him overall as the 6th top peak of all time, ahead of the likes of Magic, Bird, LBJ, Walton etc and behind the likes of Shaq, Jordan, Wilt, Russell and Olajuwon.

For me, the margin between #1 ranked Jordan here and #6 Kareem isn't really big at all. Heck, I'd listen to an argument about the latter being better. It's just the criteria that people use in order to praise one player over another.

I believe I'm probably the only one here who has no top 10 list about this project and top 10 of all time, neither I have intentions of making ones because everyday, is it from you guys, stats, newspaper articles and so on, I learn something new about a player.

Hence, that's why I joined this site in the first place (look at my total posts and most of them have been about this project). If anyone has something that the others have, like stats that aren't easy to be find like The Regulato8r has on some playoff series where there only points (like the stats that he has for '64 Oscar's first round series vs Nats, vs Celtics) please share.

To me, I have no trouble going with anyone listed after Jordan to be argued for the #1 list, as long as there's a good argument behind their post.

[PTB Fan]

Can all the Tim Duncan voters explain why his peak is higher than Kevin Garnett's? Can they explain why they are voting for Duncan 03 and not Duncan 02? Can they do this without using isolated box score stats...because I don't find these things obvious at all.

Obvious reasons: Being the last player in the league's history to win a championship without other notable player (an All-Star) in his roster while being a truly elite force on both sides of the court and doing things that aren't found in the box score.

It goes beyond that. The Spurs won their championship similar to the '77 Blazers, expect they didn't have a No.2 All-Star option like Portland had in Maurice Lucas. They filled that weakness with playing their roles nicely, Duncan taking over games late well and him making big impact.

[colts18]

Can all the Tim Duncan voters explain why his peak is higher than Kevin Garnett's? Can they explain why they are voting for Duncan 03 and not Duncan 02? Can they do this without using isolated box score stats...because I don't find these things obvious at all.

Because Duncan won a title with his supporting offensive cast doing absolutely nothing:

Parker: 14 PPG, .471 TS%
Jackson: 10.3 PPG, .468 TS%
Ginobili: 8.7 PPG, .471 TS%
Bowen: 3.3 PPG, .324 TS%

All 4 of those shot under 40% from the field. Robinson was the only one who was efficient but he did it on low volume (6 FGA/game). overall, Duncan's cast had a .493 TS%.

Duncan led his team in the playoffs in points, rebounds, assists, and blocks. Duncan did not have 1 teammate with 15+ PPG, 7+ Reb, 4+ AST, 2+ STL, 2+ Blk in the playoffs. For the playoffs he had only 1 teammate (Robinson) who had higher than a .530 TS%. Duncan's 5.94 playoff WS is the highest total in NBA history.

Duncan's man (Martin) had a horrible series. He averaged 14.7 PPG on .381 TS%. Overall the Nets scored 82 PPG on .447 TS% because of Duncan's defense.

Duncan's game 6 might have been one of the best in history. He had 21-20-10-8. Almost a quadruple. His man Kenyon Martin scored only 6 points on 3-23 shooting (.130 TS%). The Nets were held to a 83.5 D rating for that game.

For the playoffs, the Spurs improved their defense to -8.65 relative to opponent's offensive rating.

[Josephpaul]

It's between '87 Magic, '03 Duncan, '77 Walton and '76 Dr J for me.

Gotta think it through

Same

[Josephpaul]

The competition lebron faced was nothing to blink at and his final game was huge drop off from his previous playoff games. It was almost like he shut down mentality . People say his supporting cast was terrible but his opponent cast wasn't HOF material either . There has to be sme context when voting for peaks no? Just not stat sheet. With that there's no way a top 10 peak in history

[semi-sentient]

Wow, no love for Magic's '87 season? This was one of the GOAT teams. It was the greatest offense ever (highest rated offense in both the RS and PS -- EVER), led by Magic who not only picked up his scoring but still got everyone else involved just the same. He tore through the regular season winning his first MVP award and capped it off by beating his arch rival in the NBA Finals to secure yet another Finals MVP award. Is there any question that Magic's Finals performance was one of the greatest ever?

The articles posted by ThaRegul8r in an earlier thread were also praising Magic for his defense. I'm kind of surprised that his '87 season hasn't gotten more traction.


Regular Season (Lakers 65-17)

Code: Select all

       GP  MP    PTS   TS%    REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV  PER   WS 
==================================================================
Magic  80  36.3  23.9  .602   6.3  12.2  1.7  0.5  3.8  27.0  15.9

Team Offense: Lakers (1st, 115.6 oRtg)
Team Defense: Lakers (7th, 106.5 dRtg)

Playoffs (Lakers 15-3)

Code: Select all

       GP  MP    PTS   TS%    REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV  PER   WS 
==================================================================
Magic  18  37.0  21.8  .607   7.7  12.2  1.7  0.4  2.8  26.2  3.7

Team Offense: Lakers (1st, 119.9 oRtg)
Team Defense: Lakers (4th, 108.6 dRtg)

1st Round (Lakers 3, Nuggets 0)

Code: Select all

       GP  MP    PTS   TS%    REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV
======================================================
Magic  3   32.0  17.7  .646   7.3  14.3  0.7  0.7  2.0

WCSF (Lakers 4, Warriors 1)

Code: Select all

       GP  MP    PTS   TS%    REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV
======================================================
Magic  5   36.0  20.6  .638   8.0  10.8  1.4  0.2  3.4

WCF (Lakers 4, Sonics 0)

Code: Select all

       GP  MP    PTS   TS%    REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV
======================================================
Magic  4   38.5  19.8  .580   7.3  11.0  2.0  0.5  3.8

NBA Finals (Lakers over Celtics, 4-2)

Code: Select all

       GP  MP    PTS   TS%    REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV
======================================================
Magic  6   39.3  26.2  .590   8.0  13.0  2.3  0.3  2.2

Note that Magic also hit the game-winning shot in Game 4 at Boston, one of the most memorable game-winners in NBA history.

[drza]

I said that my vote would come down to Magic, Duncan or KG this thread with Walton as a Dark Horse and, of course, LeBron is the elephant in the room because (better or worse) he's the foil for everyone else right now.

So, I'll start by re-posting some of my posts from this project that I think are pertinent for my mindset when it comes to these players.