Official John Wall Appreciation Thread

[DCZards]

That's true of Wall. As bad as he shoots long 2s, they should be a last resort for him -- not 40% of his shot attempts.

I'm not talking long 2s, unless you consider 10-15 foot jumpers long 2s. Again, I'd argue that Westbrook's 10-15 ft. jumper, which I bet he makes at a clip of 60-65%, is much more of a weapon for him and his team than his three pt. shot, which he makes less than 40% of the time. Plus, I'd argue that both Wall's and Westbrook's ability to make plays (easier shots) for teammates is enhanced by their ability to break down defenses and be a threat to hit the short jumper.

Edit to add: Not to mention that Westbrook's abililty to be a threat to hit the short jumper helps create open 3 pt shots for his tall, lanky teammate--who makes 3 pters like they're layups.

[Nivek]

He still needs to work on the placement of his left hand. On many of those jumpers, it's too high -- almost on top of the ball. It needs to be down further -- alongside the ball. On top slows down the release and makes it tougher to get it off the ball before release. That puts weird spins on the ball, flattens the arc and reduces accuracy.

I didn't like his shooting either in that video. In addition to drifting on his shot, the ball comes off his hand with a flatness and a sidewinding kind of motion.

Nivek, I think you are right about what the cause of that is. Wall's hand IS too much on top of the ball. Instead of using his guide hand alongside the ball and releasing it that way, John Wall is stopping his shot from being true as it could be.

I saw Rondo really improve his shooting and the thing he does a lot better is he puts a great arc on his shot now. John Wall is going to have to shoot the ball with a higher trajectory. He could benefit IMO by shooting a lot of one hand set shots, while releasing the ball as high as possible. I suspect that will automatically force his guide hand to the side instead of over top his shooting hand. Also, I think he should shoot the same amount of left hand set shots with a very high release point. His balance is good but maybe Wall would drift less right or left if he trained both sides. He should be exploding vertically and on balance.

It seems to me that John Wall is just not a shooter, however. I think he would do well to become just an average NBA jump shooter. He is a scorer who could really improve by just being an average jump shooter.

One other thing I don't like from the video -- his follow through. He pulls his hand down fast instead of freezing that follow through.

[Dark Faze]

I think shooting form tends to get overrated. What's more important is that a guy understands why he's missing--did he not put enough on it, does he often fire it a bit too his right? You've got to shoot enough jumpshots in the course of the game to correct this .

That's why year 1 wall was a better offensive player than Wall in year 2. He was a bad shooter but he fired them off more consistently. He won us games with his 3pt shot. He was right on track with his development as an average shooter, which is all he needs to be with his driving game.

He got bad advice for year 2...only way to explain his complete avoidance of the 3pt shot. He absolutely has to keep shooting. In particular his top of the 3pt line shot was actually pretty reliable (middle, directly in line with the basket), was actually a very high percentage shot for him iirc.

If he keeps shooting 3's and from anywhere he'll eventually be an average shooter, but if he listens to that bad advice or completely avoids improving his weaknesses like his sophmore year then it'll be hard for him to be an all-star.

[Nivek]

That's true of Wall. As bad as he shoots long 2s, they should be a last resort for him -- not 40% of his shot attempts.

I'm not talking long 2s, unless you consider 10-15 foot jumpers long 2s. Again, I'd argue that Westbrook's 10-15 ft. jumper, which I bet he makes at a clip of 60-65%, is much more of a weapon for him and his team than his three pt. shot, which he makes less than 40% of the time. Plus, I'd argue that both Wall's and Westbrook's ability to make plays (easier shots) for teammates is enhanced by their ability to break down defenses and be a threat to hit the short jumper.

Edit to add: Not to mention that Westbrook's abililty to be a threat to hit the short jumper helps create open 3 pt shots for his tall, lanky teammate--who makes 3 pters like they're layups.

That's a bet you'd lose. Last season was the best shooting performance from 10-15 feet of Westbrook's career -- he made 37.7%.

And when it comes to the truly short jumpers (3-9 feet), Westbrook, Wall and the rest of the league are lousy shooters from that distance too.

[doclinkin]

Last year was a wasted year as far as development was concerned. No offseason program, no time for basic practice with the compressed schedule, and a midseason coaching change to throw turmoil into the mix. I write it off.

I do think the team needs a shooting coach full time, offseason isn't enough. But whatever we'll see.

I finally figured out whose game JWall reminds me of. He's a longer, turbo-powered version of Rod Strickland. I followed Rod since his rookie years with the 'Bockers and he had a similar shifty drive attack. Always able to blow past his man, but no truly reliable outside shot so they'd sag off him. Often finishing in traffic against bigger players with a nifty and implausible flipshot off the glass without looking. Great body control, occasionally too flashy with the pass.

Johnny Ballgame adds the ability to block a shot and finish an alley oop, but other than that their halfcourt game is similar.

[closg00]

Last year was a wasted year as far as development was concerned. No offseason program, no time for basic practice with the compressed schedule, and a midseason coaching change to throw turmoil into the mix. I write it off.

I do think the team needs a shooting coach full time, offseason isn't enough. But whatever we'll see.

I finally figured out whose game JWall reminds me of. He's a longer, turbo-powered version of Rod Strickland. I followed Rod since his rookie years with the 'Bockers and he had a similar shifty drive attack. Always able to blow past his man, but no truly reliable outside shot so they'd sag off him. Often finishing in traffic against bigger players with a nifty and implausible flipshot off the glass without looking. Great body control, occasionally too flashy with the pass.

Johnny Ballgame adds the ability to block a shot and finish an alley oop, but other than that their halfcourt game is similar.

Ted mentioned something about hiring a shooting coach in one of his interviews or blogs, they do need one for the entire team.

[DCZards]

I finally figured out whose game JWall reminds me of. He's a longer, turbo-powered version of Rod Strickland. I followed Rod since his rookie years with the 'Bockers and he had a similar shifty drive attack. Always able to blow past his man, but no truly reliable outside shot so they'd sag off him. Often finishing in traffic against bigger players with a nifty and implausible flipshot off the glass without looking. Great body control, occasionally too flashy with the pass.

Johnny Ballgame adds the ability to block a shot and finish an alley oop, but other than that their halfcourt game is similar.

Loved Rod's game. Classic NYC point guard. Led the NBA in assists one year. He also used to tear up My Hoyas when he was at DePaul. Knicks drafted Rod in the first round even though they had Mark Jackson who had just won rookie of the year. Strange move by the Knicks.

[Nivek]

I think shooting form tends to get overrated. What's more important is that a guy understands why he's missing--did he not put enough on it, does he often fire it a bit too his right? You've got to shoot enough jumpshots in the course of the game to correct this .

I agree with this for the most important. So-called proper form is a proven way to succeed. "Shoot like Ray Allen, kid." But, there are lots of variations, some of which have been highly successful -- Reggie Miller was one of the game's greatest shooters despite "improper" form. There are certain principles that work. If Wall can improve his jumper with unorthodox technique, that's fine with me. However, with results as bad as his have been, he's obviously doing something wrong. More than one something, in fact.

[pancakes3]

i'd agree if wall has a jumper that works but is ugly. however, the "bad" habits that wall has- hitch in the wrist, splayed elbows, not being square/balanced are pretty egregious. the minutiae like release point, hand position, arm angle, etc. can be overlooked.

[Kanyewest]

i'd agree if wall has a jumper that works but is ugly. however, the "bad" habits that wall has- hitch in the wrist, splayed elbows, not being square/balanced are pretty egregious. the minutiae like release point, hand position, arm angle, etc. can be overlooked.

I remember when Wall came into the league he was working a taking a few dribbles at full speed and then knocking down a jumper on the move. Frankly, John Wall still needs to improve the fundamentals of his jumper just standing still and then go on to mastering moves like that. Hopefully, Hopla helps with that.

[Kanyewest]

I finally figured out whose game JWall reminds me of. He's a longer, turbo-powered version of Rod Strickland. I followed Rod since his rookie years with the 'Bockers and he had a similar shifty drive attack. Always able to blow past his man, but no truly reliable outside shot so they'd sag off him. Often finishing in traffic against bigger players with a nifty and implausible flipshot off the glass without looking. Great body control, occasionally too flashy with the pass.

Johnny Ballgame adds the ability to block a shot and finish an alley oop, but other than that their halfcourt game is similar.

Loved Rod's game. Classic NYC point guard. Led the NBA in assists one year. He also used to tear up My Hoyas when he was at DePaul. Knicks drafted Rod in the first round even though they had Mark Jackson who had just won rookie of the year. Strange move by the Knicks.

Strickland coached him a year at Kentucky so maybe that's where he gets it from.

[Nivek]

i'd agree if wall has a jumper that works but is ugly. however, the "bad" habits that wall has- hitch in the wrist, splayed elbows, not being square/balanced are pretty egregious. the minutiae like release point, hand position, arm angle, etc. can be overlooked.

Those things aren't minutiae.

[MF23]

I think shooting form tends to get overrated. What's more important is that a guy understands why he's missing--did he not put enough on it, does he often fire it a bit too his right? You've got to shoot enough jumpshots in the course of the game to correct this .

I agree with this for the most important. So-called proper form is a proven way to succeed. "Shoot like Ray Allen, kid." But, there are lots of variations, some of which have been highly successful -- Reggie Miller was one of the game's greatest shooters despite "improper" form. There are certain principles that work. If Wall can improve his jumper with unorthodox technique, that's fine with me. However, with results as bad as his have been, he's obviously doing something wrong. More than one something, in fact.

I remember at a Morgan Wooten camp many moons ago Wooten telling us kids that a player can shoot however they want but if they don't use the classic shooting techniques it would always be inconsistent. Through all my years of playing and watching only one player defied that idea. Reggie Miller. He's the only great shooter that has an odd form. As far as Wall he's not too far away but he will struggle as nivek said because the offhand makes it harder to balance the ball.

I'm a student of the game and If there is one player I would say is the antithesis of bad shooting form it would be Oscar Schmidt. He and Michael Jordan were who I modeled my shot after and John Walls form isn't that different from Schmidt's. I wish a coach would identify his Wall's mechanical issues and get him to work on them.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I remember at a Morgan Wooten camp many moons ago Wooten telling us kids that a player can shoot however they want but if they don't use the classic shooting techniques it would always be inconsistent. Through all my years of playing and watching only one player defied that idea. Reggie Miller. He's the only great shooter that has an odd form. As far as Wall he's not too far away but he will struggle as nivek said because the offhand makes it harder to balance the ball.

I'm a student of the game and If there is one player I would say is the antithesis of bad shooting form it would be Oscar Schmidt. He and Michael Jordan were who I modeled my shot after and John Walls form isn't that different from Schmidt's. I wish a coach would identify his Wall's mechanical issues and get him to work on them.

Oscar S is Kobe's idol as well.

MF23, Reggie Miller's shot is chronicled pretty well in this link:

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/reggie-mil ... 1317316484











Reggie seemed to allow the ball to nestle near his palm more. Ray, a more classical shooter, uses all fingertips. Reggie's guide hand is a bit over the top at the start of his shot, but by his release it's to the side.

MF23, what is it you find atypical of Reggie Miller's shot?

[Nivek]

Reggie had this kind of weird cross-stroke with his shooting hand. Ray Allen's shooting hand goes straight at the target -- Reggie's would go to the left. You can see it pretty clearly at 3:20 of this video -- http://youtu.be/Ug3bvlF8SJo

[Kanyewest]

Kevin Martin also has an odd shooting form that's effective.

[queridiculo]

Loved Rod's game. Classic NYC point guard. Led the NBA in assists one year. He also used to tear up My Hoyas when he was at DePaul. Knicks drafted Rod in the first round even though they had Mark Jackson who had just won rookie of the year. Strange move by the Knicks.

I could be way off on this one, but I also remember Rod for his advanced ball handling and in particular his signature inside-out dribble.

Pretty common-place nowadays, but I don't really recall anybody using it much back then. He consistently left defenders flat footed with that move.

[MF23]

CCJ, nivek said the leftward stroke and his off hand would sway right to collide with the right. It's not a normal but you can see Miller's technique is flawless up into that point. Look at his balance, how straight his back is, air underneath the ball before release, the position of his forearm and elbow.

I remember talking to a well respected person and telling him Nick Young shot like Reggie Miller. I believe I was told I sound like a damn fan and more disparaging things. The more I think about it maybe Nick Young doesn't shoot like Miller. Haha.

BTW if anyone wants to see a pretty jump shot check out Charlie Scott. I believe that's who Michael Jordan patterned his jump shot after.

[fishercob]

I'm much less concerned with Wall's release than his balance and footwork. He's solid and respectable from the free throw line -- when everything is stationary. When he starts moving, everything goes to crap.

I'd drill him on gathering himself and jumping and landing on the same spot. I also wonder if he's too far gone on angling his feet/toes to see if we could change that. I can't think of any good shooters who do that. It makes it nearly impossible for him to square his shoulders to his target.

As to the "i don't care what his shot looks like as long as it goes in" -- yeah, sure. The point is that it doesn't go in very much looking like it does. He needs to make some fundamental changes to fix it and approach his potential. As I said, color me concerned.

[TheBigThree]

Wall needs a PR guy (either that or he just needs to mature). All these stupid mixtapes and games against garbage competition really is doing him no favors. At least last year there were lots of other big names playing in these games because of the lockout. Was hoping Wall would stay away and work on his craft, guess not.

Needless to say I don't have high hopes for the needed improvements to manifest themselves next season. Hope I'm wrong.