#9 Highest Peak of All Time (Duncan '03 wins)

[Doctor MJ]

Magic Johnson is enshrined on our list for his '87 seasons.

We'll give you 3 days here for the next thread, because I know some of you have some big weekend plans.

[colts18]

Another LeBron 09 vote. I'm surprised LeBron and Duncan keep getting surpassed in these threads. Wouldn't surprise me if it happened again.

[therealbig3]

Vote: 09 LeBron

Looks like it's going to be LeBron vs Duncan, based on previous voting. Now that Magic and Bird are in, Duncan is next on my list after LeBron, followed super closely by KG.

[Doctor MJ]

I'm surprised LeBron and Duncan keep getting surpassed in these threads. Wouldn't surprise me if it happened again.

Uh, yeah, that is notable.

I'll be pretty surprised if that happens again.

[Doctor MJ]

vote: LeBron '09

[ardee]

Vote: '09 LeBron James

Quite simply, the best offensive season left, and I think the no. 2 in DPoY voting has to count for something.

When you realize just how devoid of other offensive creation he was, the fact that the Cavs won 66 games and made it to the ECF is nothing short of remarkable.

I'm pretty sure there will be Duncan voters as well, and I'll be listening to arguments, but I'm pretty sure on LeBron right now.

[ElGee]

I'm leaning toward Magic or LeBron here. Unfortunately, I like LeBron 12 more, so I'm in a bit of a conundrum. Is the difference for most people one of philosophy, where instead of trying to abstractly evaluate a player you are rating the "results" of his season?

I think you could call it philosophy, but it is a little tricky.

So what your take is, if I'm understanding, is that you saw LeBron get better from '09 to '12, so why would you vote for '12? Others don't seem to be disagreeing with you on that, so what gives?

However, the way the project has been set up is with a seasonal focus: What did that guy actually do in said year? This is done for a variety of reasons, but one reason is to try to anchor these player comparisons in something concrete.

From a seasonal viewpoint, I look at LeBron being asked to do two different sets of things in these two years, and it's hard for me to say that impact he's having in '12 impresses me more than what I saw in '09. Rationally, I understand that '09 could not have done what '12 LeBron did, but if the '12 skills weren't necessary for '09, then why shouldn't I go by the more outstanding year?

Relating to all this is the fact that when players get older, they do grow and do different things, but that comes with a tradeoff of lost youth. One can of course argue in LeBron's case that the growth outweighs the loss, but I look at LeBron scoring much more and much better efficiency through the '09 playoffs and I have to at least question that.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, this is drawing back to the RPOY philosophical differences,..value vs. goodness. Because when you say "outstanding" I can only mean you are referring to conditional value (and then you later reference his 09 impact).

I can't get behind that and here's why: value is conditional. If there were one team where a single player was incredibly valuable on that team for obvious reasons (let's say the lone 3-point shooter on the team with many creators, so he averaged something abnormal like 25 ppg on mostly high% 3's), that wouldn't make him better to me than the members of the Olympic Team simply because he had more value. Or, in the scope of this project, that would dictate voting Walton and Nash near the very top IMO.

I assume you will say "it's more than just that though -- it's about how he performs..." but again, that's conditional in the way you are looking at. The way I'm looking at performance is by evaluating how good someone is at basketball, defined as how much I think they impact a (pseudo) random team based on their performance. You, I think, are evaluating the performance based on stuff like +/-, ppg and TS%...which are all conditional.

In other words, I care about HOW someone generated the +/-, ppg and TS% because being good at basketball is about being good in multiple environments. It's nearly impossible to just build the same, high-quality lineup around a guy's "best fit" and keep it for 10 years. So...

Having a lower +/-, fewer ppg and a lower TS% can come from a better player. Although this rarely happens in all categories, it still can in theory...which is why I don't have Walton and Nash at the top of my peaks list. And yes, I still very much anchor to a season this way.

The final gray area I imagine you will address is the PS, which is highly variable bc of sample size. To that I suppose there is an element of "results-oriented" thinking that I do find very much unclear. If you're going to say "I know luck may be involved, but yes, I want to reward the guy who got hot in May," OK. Hard to see a clear balance to have there, other than to say opportunity still dictates stuff in the postseason! It's a lot harder to get hot when you're on a team of scrubs and the opponent triple-teams you every game than if you're a PnR PF playing with peak Steve Nash.

And none of this restricts 2012 LeBron AT ALL (32-11-6 58% TS 12% TOV 45 mpg and DPOY-level defense after Indy G3).

[ElGee]

Vote: 2009 LeBron James.

Yes, the more I think about it the more I respect his peak. He really impressed me during the Olympics. I do agree that people will look back and be slightly amazed at where his peak is in this project. It's a close group, and the only players I definitely have him over are Kareem and Erving. I could see him as high as 6th on my peaks list if were forced to order them, so 9th isn't really crazy. The only way I could see it looking crazy is if he were better in 2013 (and in 2013 PS)...then he'll start to look transcendent to people and they'll start talking about him as a top-5er...

I wonder, if you picked 5 random games from the 2009 PS and the 2012 PS, and watched every LeBron possession on offense and defense (off-ball included), which player do you think would look better?

EDIT: vote changed to 2009

[drza]

I've done a bunch of Duncan vs LeBron vs KG in pretty much every permutation in recent threads. My order is still KG - Duncan - LeBron. But in going back through some old articles I found an old Slam magazine interview from the summer of 2003 with KG, Duncan and TMac. It's a fun read, and something of a moment in time as far as NBA history goes, as you've got all 3 of them right at their peaks talking straight up honestly about their situations, joking, thinking about the future. Their camaraderie really shows through. Coming at it almost a decade later, knowing how things have turned out since then, it's pretty poignant stuff. Especially the TMac parts, as you remember just how ridiculous he was then and how it all went downhill after that.

"There’s a lot of laughter in this interview. A lot of breeze being shot. And, at the time, it shouldn’t have been any other way. Three All-NBA players, at the top of their games, getting together for the first time in a room. It was bound to be bonkers—especially with Russ throwing them the occasional carrot. And if you read through the entire 3,000 plus word interview, that’s exactly what it was: bonkers. I mean, obviously KG was KG, talking in his usual fast-and-furious fashion. But for the first time, Tracy McGrady and Tim Duncan really let their offcourt personalities shine through: with TD commenting here and there, and laughing throughout; and TMac trying to keep pace with the talkative KG. It seemed like the guys had the time of their life, at the greatest point in their life. Now, six summers and grueling seasons later, the guys have changed—some accomplishing more, others failing at every stop—and our opinions of them have, too. This was KICKS 6 at its finest; look for KICKS 12 to duplicate its goodness.—Tzvi Twersky



Tim Duncan, Tracy McGray and Kevin Garnett At an undisclosed location on the East Coast, the meeting happens. This isn’t the first time they’ve met, but it’s the first time they’ve really gotten together. The first time they’ve really gotten to know each other. This is the kind of thing that’s once in a lifetime.

And maybe this is something you don’t quite understand. Maybe you look at the three guys on the cover and it just doesn’t come through. The connection. Let’s go from left to right—and not even get deep. We’ll just deal with the ’02-03 NBA season: Tim Duncan, 27 years old, NBA Finals and regular season MVP, World Champion; Tracy McGrady: 24, League scoring leader; Kevin Garnett, 27, League leader in double-doubles, All-Star MVP. Along with Shaq and Kobe, these three guys were the All-NBA First Team—and TD became the first player since Larry Bird to earn that honor in each of his first six seasons. These guys collected all the major hardware last year. And now they’re in one place—KG talking up a storm, TD and TMac shooting jumpers (yes, jumpers) from halfcourt (yes, halfcourt). Everything about this set-up is impressive.

So let’s take this opportunity. Let’s sit these three guys down for an hour and get them talking. Let’s just allow the tape recorder to roll and see what happens. That is, assuming Kevin gives the other two guys a chance to say anything at all.

KICKS: If you guys could change one rule in the League, what would it be?
KG: No zone.
TD: Yeah, the zone.
KG: If there was one rule I could change today, it would be the zone. Go back to the [looking down], Am I, am I, am I straddling the line?
Jess [Kersey]: “Hey, you’re on the line! Illegal defense, ’cause you…”
TD: Three seconds.
TM: That **** is stupid.

KICKS: Because it didn’t do what they thought it would do?
KG: I think it puts players that are really good at a disadvantage, so to speak. Everybody here gets double-teams, if not triple-teams, so we can all speak on this. But it sorta—I remember Phoenix sat somebody literally right there [in the lane].
TM: It makes it hard for a guy like me—
KG: —who penetrates.
TD: It makes it hard for all of us.
KG: All of us. Dog, Phoenix sat a person right here! Don’t you go nowhere, Bo Outlaw, you stay right here.
TM: Yeah, but you also got a guy like Troy Hudson who can shoot the ball, Wally can shoot the ball, you know what I’m sayin’? Y’all have guys that can create, for themselves. Me? [Shakes head]
KG: Not always. [Laughter all around]
TM: Me?
TD: You’re the best in the League, man, you do it all yourself. [More laughter]
TM: It’s tough on all of us, it really is. When you’re tryin’ to make a move, and you got another guy sittin’ right there on the same side just waitin’…
KG: Waitin’ on you!
TM: Just waitin’.
KG: He ain’t even playin’ his man!
TM: Nah, not at all.
KG: That’s where teammates are really, really important. Not only is there pressure on you to get them the ball, but the pressure’s on them to be productive and draw the defense.

KICKS: So you don’t feel the benefits of having the zone on defense outweighs having to fight it on offense?
KG: Oh no, we didn’t say that. We didn’t say that.
TD: Our D didn’t change much. But it’s easier not having to deal with worrying about, Am I on this line, am I over this line? You just—you ain’t worried about all that. You get one or two of those calls a game, it’s a tech, two points, fine, whatever, but as much as it takes away, you can get across that lane. I know playing my first couple years, you were afraid to run across that lane with the illegal defense, because you’d get dinged on it if you were too late. Now, if you start going, and you feel that—like, if they’ve got Tracy coming from the wing, shoot, I’m just going across. I’m just gonna go across and wait for him.
KG: Word. It helps on the defensive end, but the offensive end you can’t stand it.

KICKS: What would happen if the three of you were on the same squad?
KG: In the NBA season? ’Cause I’m gonna tell ya, the one guy that gets double-teamed that night? The other two are gonna be—yeah.
TM: I don’t even wanna think about **** like that, man. [Laughter]

KICKS: ’Cause y’all wouldn’t even have to worry about positions.
KG: That don’t even matter. You put me on the court and I’m cool. Just give me a jersey—you don’t even have to put my name on it. I’m cool.

KICKS: If you had you three, who would the other two be? If you could take anyone else.
TM: Come on, man. Of course you take Kobe and Shaq.

KICKS: You run the 1 in that?
TM: Me and Kobe. That’s your three [points at KG], that’s your four [points at TD], you’re good.
KG: They’d outlaw…they wouldn’t even—hell, no. [Laughter] Get that out of everybody’s mind right now. Never. Practice would be cool. Practice would be the real game, know what I’m sayin’?

KICKS: You guys are under 30 still, and I know I talked to you about this, Kevin, but do you think guys in the League have a good enough sense of history about the game?
TD: Definitely—and especially now, with all
the throwbacks. [Laughter] Everybody knows
everybody now.
KG: That’s a good lesson.

KICKS: At least guys know what their names are. The last names, anyway.
TM: I just found out Kwame Brown didn’t know who was on the logo.
TD: What logo?
KG: The NBA logo.
TD: Are you serious?
KG: Say word.
TM: I’m serious.
KG: I woulda kept that one to myself. [Laughter] I would have just laughed along, played along. I don’t know if I woulda said that out loud. Man.

KICKS: Talk a little bit about that difference—that’s what’s cool about having you guys here. Looking at each other, is there anything you feel you missed out on? [To Tim] Do you ever think about what it would have been like to go straight out of high school?
TD: I wouldn’t have been ready. I enjoyed my route.
TM: The only thing that I miss is—I watch college basketball. A lot of guys went to colleges that play in the NCAA Tournament, and they’re all pulling for this team or the other, and I feel a little left out. So I jump on the bandwagon. It’s just that experience—Tournament time—and what it would feel like to experience the whole thing.
KG: I don’t feel left out. I like to sit back and actually watch them fight each other. I’ve been in Minnesota for a minute, and I’ve seen some real diverse groups come through and really get into it. They take it to heart. I just look at it as like—everybody who’s made it to the NBA has struggled on all kinds of levels. None of ’em was easy. As long as you get there, then you’re good.

KICKS: For all of you—Tracy, you’re the only one who’s played for two teams, and Tim, you’ve already made it—but how important is it to win where you’re at? You watch someone like GP…
KG: That hurt me, man. I ain’t even gonna front. Everybody talks about—I know the owners and administrative side talk about players not loyal and whatever—“organizations” [Disgusted]. I don’t know, man, that’s a whole ’nother topic. It goes both ways. You show loyalty and stuff, I think its only right that you feel it back.
TM: It’s a crazy business.
KG: It’s a crazy business, and you just got to understand it.
TM: I just look at what happened to Rick Carlisle this year.
KG: Was that crazy or what?
TM: I don’t know, man. He won 50 games, back-to-back seasons.
KG: It ain’t for us to understand.
TM: No, it’s really not.
KG: If you’re tryin’ to understand it, don’t. It’ll drive you crazy.

KICKS: So do you guys feel pretty lucky about the situations you’re in now? Tim, you have to. You’re in the right spot.
TD: Yeah, but we were in the right spot last year. It’s a whole different year now. You gotta gear up and try to do it again.
TM: I think players such as ourselves really control our own destiny.
KG: The business can get weird, but a lot of it is dependent on you. You have a lot of control in some ways, and if you have the right people around you, you can channel it the right way and make your own tributaries to the oceans, so to speak.

KICKS: Tracy, this year had to be the worst for you, because you were looking at 3-1 and thought, “Of course.” But it’s crazy how fast things can turn like that.
KG: Be careful what you say, boy. I ain’t losin’ in the first round because I want to, Mac. Believe that. You know what I’m sayin’?
TM: It’s hard.
KG: Real hard. I couldn’t believe it. ’Cause we were playin’, and they came back—Detroit won and it’s 3-2! And I was like, Mac’s gonna get up there, they gonna end it up there. And then they like, it’s 3-3! Uh-oh. So I saw you playin’ D. Fourth quarter. Guardin’ Chauncey. And he didn’t do nothin’ but run you off screens, and I’m like, ah, uh-oh. ’Cause I know what it’s like when you gotta guard Tim, and then—let somebody get hot—I could be guardin’ somebody like Malik Rose. I gotta go guard him. Duncan hit a couple, I gotta go guard him, Stephen Jackson hit a couple threes, I gotta guard him. Only person I might not guard is Tony Parker. Then I gotta go on the other end. Let alone if it’s a back to back, and I gotta play somebody like—[looks at Tracy]…
TM: People really don’t understand what we go through on a night-to-night basis.
KG: No, they don’t.
TM: **** pissed me off, man, I woulda moved on to the second round, you know what I’m sayin’, but they extended it to seven games. [Laughter all around] 3-1 yo, let’s move on to the second round. Man, seven games, first round series!

KICKS: And Kevin, you finally get home court, and then you get stuck with the Lakers.
KG: Son, I got a black cloud over me. But I gotta load up that Mac with the banana clip and go do me. That’s all I can do. I ain’t gonna cry about it.

KICKS: There’s a picture floating around of the two of you [to KG and TD] with Tim coming back upcourt and KG grabbing you in the back of the head. It’s gotta be from All-Star.
KG: That’s the best time though, February. Everybody’s at ease. I know in the West, when we play y’all [in the All-Star Game], we’re like, “OK, Tim, I think I gotta guard—”
TD: —a guard. [Laughter]
KG: We over there like, this is how we gonna do it; we just gonna channel everything. For real. ’Cause we got Timmy, me, Dirk…
TM: [Quietly] CWebb.
KG: Webb.
TD: Sheed. Shaq and Yao got the five locked up.
KG: We got Ming! Hold on now, we got the…
TD: What did we go this year? It was me, you, Yao, Dirk and who?
KG: Who was that?
TD: Who was the other big man, was it Kob?
KG: Yeah, and Kob played guard. Kob played guard, yeah. It was funny, man.
TM: That was scary, yo. That was scary.
KG: And you know what we did? [To Tracy] We watched y’all walk out. We said, “Hold on, stay right here, stay right here.” [Duncan laughs] They was like, “Hold on! You gotta, uh…you gotta…” Oh, we watched y’all walk out. We were laughin’—we were like, how y’all gonna match up with this right here? That was fun. That was fun. We was gonna let Shaq bring the ball up.
TD: He did! [Laughs]
KG: Diesel’s funny, man. February’s the best time. Wouldn’t trade All-Star Game in for nothin’. The emotion’s so high when you play man, that’s just a break from that.

KICKS: For all of you guys, who’s your toughest matchup? Is there any one guy you go up against who you know is gonna give you a hard night?
TD: [Points at KG] Him, Webb, Dirk…who am I missing?
KG: Elton.
TD: Elton. Oh man.
KG: It’s not a joke. It’s not a joke.
TM: [To TD] But you still be havin’ 30 and 20. ****. Mine is Ron Artest. He’s tough. He’s strong. He’s the strongest guy I go up against. And he’s a pest, man.
KG: He takes pride in defense.
TM: That’s it, to stop a guy like myself. He love that ****.

KICKS: What if any of you guys could trade bodies with anyone else in the League?
KG: Hell no.

KICKS: No? You cool with you?
KG: Yeah, I can’t see myself bein’—imagine changin’ bodies with AI? [Laughter] No. Just when you think you tough? He got it worse, and he gotta play—man.
TD: I’d take him [pointing at McGrady]. I’d like to fly like him for a night.
TM: I don’t know.
TD: I’d take a 40-inch vertical for a night.
KG: You do got a 40—I’d say it’s more like a 45.
TM: Well, I’d probably take his body [pointing at KG], but then I’d be guarding people like him [points at Duncan]. So that’s why it’s hard for me to say that.

KICKS: So that’s why you still want to be listed at 6-8, so you won’t have to guard guys like him?
KG: [Excited] Put in there that Tracy McGrady is [Duncan joins in] 6-10.

KICKS: So can I put in that Kevin Garnett is 7-1?
KG: Oh man. How we get here? We talkin’ about Mac, how we get over here?
TM: He is 7-1.
KG: Get the hell out of here.
TM: You might even be 7-2.
KG: Now he pushed it. Next thing, I’m 7-4, 7-5.
TM: I’m not 6-10. I’ve never been listed at 6-9.
KG: That’s ‘cause you tell ’em not to! Really, if it was up to you, you’d be 6-6. Chillin’, beastin’. [Laughter] What’s your wingspan, man?
TM: I don’t know, yo.
KG: That ****’s like eight foot. [Laughter] No bull, this is a real-ass story. I seen Mac come from the other side of the free-throw lane and block Wally’s shot—a three. Blocked it. And he jumped—you think I’m BSin’. Blocked it.
TD: You saw the dunk he did on us this year?
TM: Oh my God. [Laughing] I don’t know how I made that.
TD: He came from outside the lane—did Dave swing at you?
KG: It was Dave.
TD: He ducked under Dave, dunked it backwards.
KG: You long. Son, your wingspan is like, 8-2.
TM: OK, but I’m 6-8.
TD: 6-10.
KG: 6-10. And I’m tellin’ everybody, too. When we go through scoutin’ reports—“Son is 6-10.” We need to put a four on him. What are you, two? You play everything one through what, four? I know you guard everything one through four. I seen you one game, you had to guard Joe Smith.
TM: What are you talkin’ about, I be guardin’ you sometimes! ****. Joe Smith, you…
KG: Get your ass outta here, I gotta chase you through…
TM: You a pest too, you. You a ****’ pest. You be holdin’ like a **** out there.
KG: [Sarcastic] Yeah, I hold like a ****.
TD: [Laughing]
TM: Damn you be holdin’!
KG: Oh my God, this is crazy. Now I’m holdin’.
TM: He won’t let me breathe, man.

KICKS: And you’re 7-2.
KG: Yeah, I’m 7-2. Holdin’. You can’t get near Tim, though. You can foul out in the first half if you get too close to Tim. If you get too close to Tim, it’s a foul and everything. Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant get the phantom call all the time. And all it takes is this: “He’s on my elbow!” If he don’t get the bank? Tweet! I’m like, “This is bull. Hue [Hollins], how am I supposed to guard him, Hue? ’Cause he miss a bank, I’m foulin’?” Oh.
TD: [Still laughing]

Kevin Garnett, 2003. KICKS: What does he tell you?
KG: “Come on, Kevin.” You know Hue. “I’m callin’ the foul! I’m callin’ the foul, Kevin—what you mad about?” Oh ****, boy, them refs. Let me shut up before I get fined in the summer.
TD: Fined during the summer? [Keeps laughing]
TM: That’s ill, cuz.
KG: They’ll suspend me for the first three games, ’cause that’s where this is going. Oh, that **** is crazy. Ain’t nothin’ like, for real, though, gettin’ around David Robinson, and there’s Tim; or getting around Tim, and there’s David. I don’t know about Mac, man, but I’m so—I’m looking forward to David sitting down.
TM: I only see him twice a year. You see him four times, so it really doesn’t bother me.
KG: I know, right? God, though. You can win 35 games and get like the fifth seed in the East. Word. [Laughter] What, Detroit won 50 games, Jersey won 49, somebody after that was like 47—I just know the fifth and sixth was like, 35.

KICKS: [To Duncan] I assume you wouldn’t want to go East. I mean, you’re happy where you’re at.
KG: He can’t say **** in this interview! I better not hear you complain!
TD: I haven’t complained one time.

KICKS: But you won’t have David Robinson for the first time next year, that’ll be different.
TD: It’ll be a lot different. But we knew it was comin’. It’s gonna be an adjustment, not having another footer, unless we pick somebody up. [Everybody looks at Kevin] From somewhere.
KG: From somewhere.
TM: What it feels like to play without David? You could ask me a question about what it feels like to play with somebody?

KICKS: Or just what it feels like to play with a seven footer?
TM: All right.

KICKS: Because Stephen’s been hurt all the time.
TM: Who?

KICKS: Stephen Hunter?
TM: Who? [Laughter] I’m just sayin’ who.

KICKS: You had Patrick for a year.
TM: Yeah, Pat came in…Man, I’ma shut up, ’cause I might say some ****. It’s real tough for me man, not having to play with somebody who gives you that low-post presence, who takes that pressure off you. At least one night or two nights, but damn. I gotta bring it 82 games, yo. If I have a subpar game we might win? But I gotta bring it every single night. I’m our best post player. And that’s sad. I got guys on my team that can’t post, man, can’t play with their backs towards the basket.

KICKS: Well, at least you got the scoring title.
TM: For me personally? That was big for me. I wasn’t going out tryin’ to do that, but that’s what I had to do. **** man, it was really, really tough. I’m not even tryin’ to repeat that next year.

KICKS: What do you guys think of the current playoff format? Not only is it shifting to seven games in the first round, but what about the idea of re-seeding by record, regardless of East or West, once the playoffs start.
KG: That would be cool. You mean somebody could play an East team first?

KICKS: Yeah, so maybe you guys [to TMac] would have gone up against San Antonio in the first round this year.
TM: Don’t do that.
TD: The West is like, “That’s cool.” [Laughter]
KG: That would be cool, though. That would be cool.

KICKS: ’Cause you have that power shift now—the West is loaded.
KG: The West is like this, Dog. I’m tellin’ Mac this—this is the best one right here: Dallas-San Antonio, back to back. Day [off]. Houston, Phoenix. Day. Day. Lakers, Portland, back to back. Home. Some **** like that. You’re lookin’ at the schedule, and I’m like, God damn,’ I’m takin’ this one at a time, dog. ’Cause if you really think about it, you’re like, Oh. That’s the West. That’s the West, dog.
TM: Well, I don’t think I’ll be seein’ the West in my career. Stay right on the East. [Laughter]
KG: And it’s gonna be a track race. Ain’t none of that walk-the-ball-up, slow-it-up, ah da da da da, 18-seconds-a-basket scored.

KICKS: You guys [Kevin and Tim] have gotten criticized for the opposite reasons—Tim being too quiet, and Kevin being too loud. Ever wish you could switch places?
KG: Half the people that talk it never played basketball. Critics are funny to me. Timmy had no problem not shoutin’ and goin’ crazy. At the end of the day, you gotta put the ball in the basket. However you do it. You gotta maintain and take care of yourself. They don’t know when you got all that damn energy it takes away from you. And there is a thing as being too poised, because you gotta play with some kind of fire. You just gotta have a great balance, rather than just one side. The last three years I’ve learned that. You come out in the first quarter and just whoosh. I can’t be this hyped, I’m gonna be done by the third or fourth quarter. So you need balance.

KICKS: You feel like that, too, Tracy? That you need balance?
KG: You are the smoothest **** out there on the floor.
TD: He don’t know the game happenin’. [Laughter] He don’t know the game happenin’ until he gets the ball.
KG: I tell you, TMac, like—he like Superfly out there. [Laughter] I tell people this all the time—that **** be out there glidin’. One minute he [holds hand still] then [pushes forward] whoosh. Like you probably
the most—you like Heathcliff the cat, yo. Top Cat, all the cool **** who just cool, and Tim the same way, you think they cool and they quiet, then all of a sudden, boom.

KICKS: You guys are all happy where you are?
KG: It’s an intense situation, let me say that.
TM: You want to win.
KG: Everybody wants to win.

KICKS: But most other players are planets—y’all are suns. Other players come around you.
KG: But you want to be in a position where you win. We all want to be in a situation like Tim, where we can win a couple rings. And who’s to say that what we say today is what we do tomorrow, you know what I’m sayin’? That’s how I’m gonna end it.
TD: [Laughs]
KG: Straight up, I’m serious. We sit here jokin’ and ****, but you may get here, and you sittin’ at home, and straight up, you heated. I don’t even watch basketball ’til the Finals no more. I don’t even know what’s happenin’. I don’t even talk to nobody, I’m like the worst, man. It’s really that hard, I take it that hard. I can only imagine what Mac go through."

http://www.slamonline.com/online/kicks/ ... ower-of-3/

[colts18]

I can't put KG ahead of LeBron because there was a massive difference in offense in that postseason. KG's team was -1.0, LeBron's was +10. LeBron had a 128 O rating compared to KG's 100. That's a huge gap. +10.5% TS% gap. I don't think its possible for a playoff to make up that much of an offensive gap with their defense unless this is a Bill Russell vs. Charles Barkley discussion. KG's gap on defense isn't that big.

[Doctor MJ]

Unless I'm misunderstanding, this is drawing back to the RPOY philosophical differences,..value vs. goodness. Because when you say "outstanding" I can only mean you are referring to conditional value (and then you later reference his 09 impact).

Actually know, when I say "outstanding" I mean salient. I mean a player "popping". I mean watching LeBron in those '09 playoffs and thinking that the way he's consistently tearing each of these teams up through these playoffs is on a level I've never seen before. Not from Jordan, not from Shaq, not anybody.

Yes, the team results showed a very quick jolt of a turnaround, but as mentioned, LeBron still looked great, role players got cold and hot respectively, and after the fact we learn that those role players we were praising so much really couldn't do much without him.

So I'm seeing salience right along with the value and the stats, and when I look at all that, I have a very difficult coming up with any kind of coherent scale that puts LeBron '12 ahead of LeBron '09.

The final gray area I imagine you will address is the PS, which is highly variable bc of sample size. To that I suppose there is an element of "results-oriented" thinking that I do find very much unclear. If you're going to say "I know luck may be involved, but yes, I want to reward the guy who got hot in May," OK. Hard to see a clear balance to have there, other than to say opportunity still dictates stuff in the postseason! It's a lot harder to get hot when you're on a team of scrubs and the opponent triple-teams you every game than if you're a PnR PF playing with peak Steve Nash.

And none of this restricts 2012 LeBron AT ALL (32-11-6 58% TS 12% TOV 45 mpg and DPOY-level defense after Indy G3).

Here's where I see danger of logical pitfalls for myself on both sides. If this is just a player getting "hot" (for lack of a better term) , then I don't know whether that makes me think it's more worthy or less worthy. I can see arguments in both directions.

Part of it depends though on what we mean by "hot". The biggest differentiator between LeBron '09 & LeBron '10 is to me that LeBron got in his own head in '10. I understand that Boston's D had something to do with that, and even before that, Boston's D was chipping away at LeBron's ability to dominate, but I'm already factoring in degree of difficulty here. So bottom line, '09 beats '10 because of mental superiority.

Now, one might say: Hey, it's the same guy. Swap the two with a time machine and whoever is playing in '09 looks better. But that actually to me ties into why it's so dangerous in many situations to move to far into the abstract. We'd never be able to choose between '09 & '10 if we couldn't use the concrete there because it's so close to being the same guy. Forced to choose though, gotta be '09.

Okay, feels like I'm digressing here, I'll just say one more thing because it's on my mind as I write this:

It bothers me when people look at the two upsets of Cleveland like that was a regular season model getting exposed. In both years, we're talking about a team which happens to go up against the two best defenses in the league. Now, you can say:

"Hey, if you want to win a title, you've got to be able to beat the best defense."

But do we have any real confidence that the Heat are any more immune to elite teams? How would (will) they do against an elite team with great size? (Thinking of the Lakers right now)

Have they really accomplished that much more than those Cavs? And I'm particularly thinking offense here because that's the thing people are knocking LeBron for predominantly when they talk about a system exposed. LeBron's adapted to the Heat, but he still isn't leading all-world offenses.

In a nutshell: If Bosh doesn't come back at the right time, and Boston beats the Heat with LeBron playing the same way, do you still put him above LeBron '09.

Of course as I say this, someone could say: You're absolutely right, I pick '09 over '12, but the low ceiling issues you describe are why I rate LeBron significantly lower than you.

[drza]

Interesting Jackie Mac article from 2010 about LeBron and Garnett, their leadership styles, and the events of their youths that helped shape their personalities. It develops the themes of KG's fierceness and loyalty vs LeBron's embracing of his teammates in a sort of shared party atmosphere. This is another slice of life article that talks about the parts of the game that the stats don't touch, but as far as this project goes I do find the...feel of it interesting with respect to the question of LeBron '09 vs LeBron '12. In this article there is a sense of almost defiance from LeBron and his crew about him being playful and happy-go-lucky, and how that does or doesn't affect his approach to winning. My sense is that if this article were re-written in 2012 we'd have seen an entirely different LeBron, as he exhibited an edge and an ability to go into killer mindset in 2012 that he didn't exhibit a few years earlier.

"Greatness leaves its mark, and Leon Powe can prove it. As a member of the 2008 NBA champion Celtics, he immersed himself in the fiercely competitive, emotionally charged environment fueled by Kevin Garnett, and he flourished as a player because of it. KG’s impact on the Boston franchise was immediate and profound — and intermittently uncomfortable for those who didn’t buy into the new level of intensity.

This season, Powe also bore witness to the influence of LeBron James, who, like Garnett, was a high school basketball savant who leaped directly to the pros and instantly altered the culture of his team. The King implemented enthusiasm and inclusion as his galvanizing forces on the Cavaliers, cementing a reputation as a kinder, gentler leader.

King James and KG will step onto the TD Garden parquet tonight for Game 6 of the Eastern Conference semifinals, with their signature pregame rituals accenting their different approaches: Garnett, head bowed, eyes burning, will thump his head into the basket support. James, gazing upward, will grab a fistful of resin and playfully toss it toward the rafters.

Until 48 hours ago, the argument could be made that both strategies were successful. But with heavily favored Cleveland down, three games to two, and on the brink of elimination, there are questions anew about how James leads — or doesn’t lead — his team. The two-time MVP is suddenly under siege following his lackluster Game 5 performance for failing to demonstrate the urgency, intensity, and edge that are required of elite performers.

Which is more effective: a KG shove or a LeBron embrace? Powe, who reveres both superstars, believes there is a place in the game for both.

According to Powe, James feels compelled to foster relationships that extend beyond the court. Garnett limits his trust to the space between the lines.

Asked how many times he went to Garnett’s home during their two seasons together, Powe answered, “Once. He told me to come over and gave me the directions. I’m driving around the middle of nowhere and I call him and say, ‘Where am I going?’ He says, ‘I’ll pick you up.’ So he comes and takes me to his house. I could never find it again — and that’s exactly what he wanted.’’

Powe has been with the Cavaliers less than one year, yet he already has been to James’s home “too many times to count.’’

“He needs to be around people,’’ Powe said. “He likes the attention, the activity. He’s got a chef at his house and we sit around and eat and laugh. It brings us together.

“LeBron doesn’t care if anyone knows where he lives. He’s got police at the front door 24 hours day.’

KG is a low-profile superstar rarely seen in public. His quest for privacy has not prevented him from securing high-level endorsements or becoming wildly popular among consumers. The latest NBA data lists Garnett’s jersey as the No. 3 seller in the league, trailing only Kobe Bryant and LeBron.

The decision to let his play speak for itself was made by the Big Ticket long ago.

“You have to understand, KG keeps to himself,’’ Powe said. “He don’t trust nobody.’’

Not true, counters Garnett. He has a circle of friends, but the group is small, shrouded, airtight. The reason for that traces back nearly two decades.

Defining moments
In May 1994, after his high school team from Mauldin, S.C., won the state championship and Garnett was named Mr. Basketball, a fight broke out between a white student and group of black students. Garnett was there, and when police descended, lights flashing, they surveyed the landscape and slapped the handcuffs on the 6-foot-11-inch kid and nearly every other African-American in the vicinity. There were conflicting reports on what transpired; some say Garnett was an innocent bystander, others claim he was involved.

In any case, his pristine reputation was shredded. The polite, outgoing, well-respected boy had become the lightning rod of a racial maelstrom, and when he turned to members of the community for support, he was stunned as some of them looked the other way.

“I’m big on personal trust and loyalty,’’ Garnett explained. “Once you damage that, it’s pretty much over.’’

The incident in Mauldin changed everything. He moved to Chicago and enrolled at Farragut Academy for his final year of high school. He put the incident behind him, but never forgot it.

“When you are young, you take everything at face value,’’ Garnett said. “Then you find out there are plastic people, these people you thought you knew, that when the lights come on, and it’s a high-volume light, all of a sudden they start to melt. I learned that the hard way.

“It was a crossroad for me. It made me who I am. From then on I made people gain my trust, instead of just giving it to them.

“I’m human. I’m no saint. But when someone puts the cuffs on you and throws you behind bars, it does something to you. You see the world differently.’’

LeBron’s world centered on a single mother who raised him alone and a band of basketball brothers who quickly became the siblings he never had. His coach at St. Vincent-St. Mary High School in Akron, Ohio, Dru Joyce, became his confidant and surrogate father.

“I was an only child,’’ James said. “I liked to have people around me all the time. And I was surrounded by people who looked out for me.

“What happened to KG would change anybody. I’ve never experienced anything like that, but I can understand why he’d take a step back.’’

James endured his own travails as a high school senior. By then he had graced the cover of Sports Illustrated and won multiple state championships.

“There was jealousy,’’ said Joyce. “There was this sense of, ‘Who do you think you are?’ There were people who wanted to take him down.’’

James provided them with the opportunity when he accepted a pair of throwback jerseys from a local merchant that was in direct violation of the Ohio Athletic Association regulations. Suddenly James was in danger of forfeiting the remainder of his high school career.

“The day it happened, he sat in the bleachers and cried,’’ Joyce said. “He knew basketball wasn’t over for him. He was going to the NBA. But at that moment, that didn’t matter. He had let down his friends, his teammates.’’

James returned the jerseys, challenged the Ohio Athletic Association in court and had his suspension reduced to two games. He was bewildered by the number of sudden detractors, who looked vaguely like those who had clamored for his autograph just days earlier.

“But he dealt with it,’’ said Joyce. “He wasn’t bitter. It didn’t define him. Even at that age, he already understood how ‘celebrity’ worked.

“I’ve always said if anyone was built for this life, it’s him.’’

A matter of balance
James and Garnett have avoided the kind of damning publicity that has dogged Tiger Woods and Kobe Bryant. They have grown accustomed to being scrutinized, analyzed, and dissected, navigating the increasingly invasive media world practically unscathed — at least to this point.

Yet every day brings a new cautionary tale, the latest a video of Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones making disparaging remarks about Bill Parcells and Tim Tebow in a bar without realizing a bystander was recording every word.

“When I heard about that incident, KG was the first person I thought of,’’ said Ray Allen. “He’s very paranoid.’’

LeBron professed to know nothing of the Jones story, but acknowledged, “You have to be aware. Everyone has a phone. Every phone has a camera. Nothing is private.

“But I still kind of live my life. I can’t shy away from stardom. I like people too much.’’

It is too simplistic to suggest that James’s good nature prevents him from challenging the Cavaliers.

“He strikes a good balance,’’ teammate Jamario Moon said.

It is a mistake, also, to characterize Garnett as a hard-line NBA loner. Cavs center Shaquille O’Neal maintains that KG is one of the funniest players in the league — in the proper setting.

“I enjoy life,’’ Garnett said. “I love hearing about journeys. I fall into stories so deep I can see them. If I had to paint a picture of myself, it would be me on the porch with my boys, talking junk, enjoying the day.’’

He does not apologize for challenging Rajon Rondo to be more professional, to make smarter decisions, to respect the game and his coaches. Rondo has been the Boston headliner in this series, but he will be the first to concede that he has thrived in the system KG created, even if the two have clashed on occasion.

LeBron feels no pressure to tone down his exuberance. It is how he has always approached winning.

“I hate it when people say he doesn’t respect the game because he’s laughing and smiling on the bench,’’ Joyce said. “That’s just Bron.’’

Moon insists LeBron’s willingness to draw everyone in has resulted in a unified team.

“He’s going out of his way to make everyone feel comfortable,’’ said Moon. “Here’s one of the biggest icons in sports, and he trusts us. And by trusting us in his home, that carries over onto the court.’’

The greatness of LeBron James has given Powe hope that he’ll wear another championship ring.

The greatness of Kevin Garnett has already delivered."

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball ... hs/?page=1

[Lightning25]

I mean watching LeBron in those '09 playoffs and thinking that the way he's consistently tearing each of these teams up through these playoffs is on a level I've never seen before. Not from Jordan, not from Shaq, not anybody.

I think you need to factor in his competition though. He faced a depleted and a team with massive chemistry problems in the Detroit Pistons in the 1st round, a banged up Atlanta Hawks in the 2nd round, and then a weak perimeter defensive team in the Orlando Magic.

Lebron in 2010 was better than Lebron was in 2009. The only difference was that Lebron got to play against a much easier defensive team in 2009 than he did in 2010 which is why his 2009 playoff stats are much better. If you make 2009 Lebron play against the Celtics and 2010 Lebron play against the Magic, there is not a doubt in my mind that 2010 Lebron would do better than 2009 Lebron did and 2009 Lebron would struggle against Boston just like 2010 Lebron did.

I know the Magic were listed at #1 in defense in 2009 but it doesn't tell the whole story. Their perimeter defense was very weak. They had Mickeal Pietrus, Hedo Turkoglu, and occasionally an undersized Courtney Lee guard him throughout the series. Not only could and did Lebron get to the paint at will against the Magic in that 09 ECF, but his jumper was also on fire in that series which led to him putting up video game like numbers. It was why his impact and his numbers were so great. It is not like Lebron was the only perimeter player that dominated that 2009 Magic team either. If you check out the numbers that Kobe, Wade, and other great perimeter players had against the Magic in the regular or post-season, you would see that they all played great and put up great numbers against them, maybe not as great as Lebron's, but still great.

However, I think that if you make him play against a team like the Celtics, a team that had the ability to cut off his ability to get to the rim at will and force him to take jumpers then you will make him struggle and put up inferior/below standard numbers. It is why Lebron historically did struggle against the Celtics when he was with the Cavs. He didn't have a very reliable post game. He really lacked scoring variety when he was with Cleveland and it was something he completely fixed and completely improved on in 2012.

In a nutshell: If Bosh doesn't come back at the right time, and Boston beats the Heat with LeBron playing the same way, do you still put him above LeBron '09.

I would because of his improved and diverse game. I'll quote myself in another thread about '12 Lebron vs. '09 Lebron

I'll bold and underline to cut to the chase but you can read the others if you want.

I would go with '12 LeBron but it's not a big deal if someone believes '09 Lebron or '10 Lebron was better but I personally believe Lebron was better than ever last season.

I think Lebron plays more like a forward these days whereas in Cleveland he pretty much played like an oversized guard with unparallel athleticism.

This was why everybody questioned how long LeBron could play at a high level due to his reliant on athleticism and how much his play was going to be impacted with age.

I think with the way Miami Lebron plays, he will be fine with age because he doesn't depend on his athleticism as much anymore. He uses everything to his advantage these days, his versatility to defend 1-4 positions and play 1-4 positions, his strength and size in the post-up game, etc.

His jump shot for the most part is essentially the same as it was in '09 and '10 except that in 2012 he is much better in the mid-range specifically the high to low post area.

His passing is pretty much the same although he isn't used as much of a playmaker in Miami anymore due to the fact that he plays in the post more often but he does pass out of the post very well these days.

His defense has improved magnificently. While Lebron was an elite and a great defender in his last two seasons in Cleveland he was never really worthy or close to the DPOY award like he is currently and the way he was in 2012. I also don't think that LBJ in Cleveland was capable of guarding 1-4 positions either. I think he might have been able to guard 1-3 but I just think Lebron could guard the 4s and 5s in Miami now probably due to being a smarter defender and being a bit stronger and bulkier.

His rebounding has improved as well. He boxes out more for rebounds, he goes after the rebounds more, and he also scores more off of tip-ins and put-backs. I like the fact that he increased his activity/hustle level and used it as an advantage.

I think the only thing '09 and '10 LeBron did better than '12 LeBron is isolation. He was just a little more quicker and explosive back then and could create his own shot a little better but he can still create his own shot just fine. I don't think it's enough to put over '12 LeBron's improvement in defense, post-game, rebounding, etc. though.




I think a lot of the fact that he doesn't attack and slash to the basket as much as he use to has to do with the fact that he less space to work with Wade out there. I always see LeBron playing like vintage '09 and '10 LeBron offensively and putting up '09 and '10 LeBron numbers when Wade is on the bench out or not playing at all.

It is why I think the Heat should trade Wade but that deal would never be done.

Like I said, Lebron may be slightly less athletic but he is pretty much better at every aspect now than he was in 2009 and 2010. There is no question Lebron was more important to those Cavs team than he was to those Heat teams but this has a lot do with the fact that he had no help in Cleveland whereas he does have help in Miami. It has nothing to do with Lebron being better or worse.

I would rank LeBron's like this

2011-12 Lebron
2009-10 Lebron
2008-09 Lebron

I think that Miami LeBron is like a hybrid between Pippen and Karl Malone whereas Cleveland LeBron was like a hybrid between Pippen and Dwyane Wade. Pippen has always been Lebron's main prototype.

In addition, 2012 Lebron's team looks great on paper but they really didn't perform great especially his other two max contract players in Bosh and Wade. Wade was horribly inconsistent throughout the series. His numbers look alright but anyone who watched him play will tell you that his numbers look a lot better than what he actually performed like. Bosh missed half of the post-season as you would know.

[UDRIH14]

09 who was lebrons opponents in the eastern playoffs?
KG?
03 duncan at least went through shaq/kome

[Lightning25]

I honestly think the equivalent of saying 2009 and 2010 Lebron is better than 2012 Lebron would be like saying 1988 and 1989 Jordan was better than 1991 or 1992 Jordan. Jordan put up much better numbers in those 80s years but it was quite clear when that despite that he was still a better player in the early 90s instead.

One thing that these all-time perimeter greats, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kobe have in common is not just the fact that they are great players and that they have championship rings, but they also have post-games.

Before 2012, Lebron's post game was non-existent, he didn't have much of it at all. However, during the off-season before the 2012 season started, he worked with Hakeem to help improve his post-game to utilize it and help him become more comfortable in it.

The results showed as Lebron completely killed the Thunder in the Finals with his post-game. Thabo, Harden, and Durant had no answer for Lebron's post-game in the Finals and most of his points based off of my memory were from the post. Lebron didn't just kill them with his scoring from the post either but also his passing. He didn't see many doubles until the last two games of the series but in those last two games of the series, he averaged 10+ assists.

Lebron's new post-game in 2012 is not just a huge improvement for him as an individual but also for a team. It is much easier to play off of post players than it is to play off of a player dribbling and dribbling at the top of the game like it is street basketball. There is also a lot more options for the player to work with down in the high/low post as well which really isn't anything that could be shown in the stat-sheet.

He is just much more fundamentally sound these days in 2012 than he was in 2009 and 2010.

I know I'm not a part of the voting committee but I just want to let people know my reasonings and thoughts on why 2012 Lebron is better than 2009 and 2010 Lebron.

[drza]

And speaking of these seasons, here's a quick thought experiment for everyone:

Why was 2003 Duncan better than 2003 Garnett? And if you think 2004 Garnett is clearly improved from the year before, what does that say about their peaks?

Quoting this, because I found an in-depth stats article about 2003 KG from 82games.com. It looks at several different stats and aspects of the game, from overall +/- to defense to defensive rebounding to clutch scoring to passing, and speaks to how these tie together to help explain KG's impact. The article touches on Duncan '03 tangentially as well, since Duncan and KG are both around the top of the league in several of these areas so both get mentioned in the article. The data tables from the article don't copy/paste well, so if you want to see the actual numbers you'll have to follow the link to the article. But here you can at least see the commentary, based upon the numbers.

"Kevin Garnett -- man among boys?

With the Minnesota Timberwolves finally landing a talented cast of characters to play alongside Kevin Garnett, we may get to see one of the NBA's premiere players in a late round playoff game. His 2002-03 regular season campaign though will remain a year for the ages!

How good is Garnett? How much did he mean to the T'Wolves last year?

1) On court versus Off court comparisons
An easy way to get a quick read on a player's worth to his team is to compare the team's performance with him on the court to when he was on the bench (resting in a game, fouled out, or out with an injury).

Garnett made an incredible difference!

When he was on the floor Minnesota beat their opponents by almost six points per 48 minutes of play. When he was off the floor they were outscored by seventeen points! That's a net gain when K.G. was playing of almost 23 points per game!!! KG was #1 in the league in this stat -- for reference, Nowitzki was #2 at +18, and Duncan #3 at +14.

No single player meant more to his team than Garnett!

2) Floor Time Won-Lost Record
If you look at a player's plus/minus stats on a game-by-game basis you can assign wins and losses to individual efforts. For instance if in a game when a player was on the floor his team was up by a net of two points, you could call that a win, whereas if his team was outscored while on the floor he gets a loss -- regardless of the actual overall outcome of the game.

For better accuracy, we adjust the wins and losses based on the quality of the oppositon while a player was on the floor!
The table above shows the top ten NBA players in this stat (who played at least 40% of their team's total minutes). Checking in at #8 is our man Kevin, but note how his overall +/- per 48 minutes rating is lower than the other leaders. Kevin didn't play on a powerhouse team, but he was a powerhouse player! This stat measures consistency among other things, and K.G. was marvelous in giving his team a lead during his playing time (over 70% of the time).

3) Defensive Rebounding
On a percentage basis (the best measure since opportunities vary), Garnett was the #2 defensive rebounder in the league! He actually grabbed more total defensive boards than anyone.

Elite rebounder? Yes!

4) Clutch Scorer

It's one thing to be a great player, but another to be a great player under pressure. We chart how players do in clutch moments of a game, which we define as the 4th quarter and overtime where neither team has a lead of more than five points. Putting Kevin's clutch stats onto a 48 minute average shows the following:

He doesn't shy away from taking the big shots, and while with some players' performance drops off in critical moments, for Garnett his effective field goal percentage (adjusting for three points shots) is actually higher with the game on the line than it is overall. He had a .508 eFG% for all minutes, but a .534 eFG% in money-time.

Not only that, 46% of his baskets came unassisted which means even with the entire world knowing the ball was going to K.G. he could still create his own shot and manufacture points by himself.

5) Outstanding Passer

Being able to put the ball through the net is wonderful, but the very best scorers also learn that by being a great passer as well they can really make a team go and punish opponents for double-teaming too often. Kevin Garnett has nothing to apologize for on the passing front:

The typical assist to turnover ratio you hear bandied about is pretty misleading -- a lot of turnovers for some players come when the last thing on their mind is passing! What matters more is how often a pass is thrown away or stolen compared to the number of assists. Garnett's 6.0 ratio on that front is very solid, and at 7.2 assists per 48 minutes of playing time he is finding his teammates successfully. Imagine what his numbers will be like this year, when he's passing more and has multiple offensive threats to throw to!

6) Defensive Impact

While we haven't yet released our full-on individual player defensive stats and ratings (coming soon!) it's clear that Garnett boosts the defense of the Timberwolves when he's on the court. Of players in the game for at least 1/3 of the team's total minutes, he ranks #2 in the league in defensive impact! The Timberwolves yield almost ten points fewer per 48 minutes with Garnett providing a formidable defensive force.

With some of the top ten players listed it's partly a matter of the team playing a slower pace game with them on court, but that's not the case with K.G. -- the effective field goal percentage (adjusted for three point shots) allowed to opponents also changes dramatically when Garnett is on the sidelines. Tim Duncan edges Garnett by the smallest of margins for top player in the league in this stat category...and we know what happened to Duncan's Spurs in '02-03!

While Minnesota's defense didn't approach the very best teams in the league even with Garnett playing, there's little doubt that his positive influence on that side of the ball is considerable.

Truth be told, we could sing the praises of Garnett all day. Anyone who thinks that the lack of playoff success for the Timberwolves is some kind of blemish on his game is blind to the facts: Garnett is one of the top five players in the league. Now finally he has the personnel around him to really be a force. If Minnesota was in the East, they would be the favorite to make the finals, obviously in the West it's another matter to get through the Lakers, Spurs, Kings and Mavericks. If everything comes together with the new guys in tow, the T'Wolves will be an opponent to avoid in the post-season.

Having said all that, there are a few areas where it would be nice to see some improvement. His shooting late in the shot clock could be better (a .390 effective field goal percentage with 21+ seconds gone), but that should change with more guys who can get a shot off on their own in the lineup. Too often K.G. has been forced to make something out of nothing when the halfcourt set breaks down.

With a player of Garnett's height and athleticism it would be nice to see him take more of his shots from close to the basket (only 23% of his field goal attempts we deemed to be from close range, but with a .719 eFG). There too if he did go inside more often, he would boost his foul drawing from an okay 12.8% to a more superstar worthy level.

All in all though, we're quibbling, this guy is flat out brilliant. In a season where the top stories figure to be the Lakers dream team and LeBron James, keep an eye on the Timberwolves! "

http://www.82games.com/comm1.htm

[therealbig3]

That T-Mac/Duncan/KG piece was awesome, haha.

[ardee]

09 who was lebrons opponents in the eastern playoffs?
KG?
03 duncan at least went through shaq/kome

This is the kind of rhetoric that doesn't make sense

Duncan didn't play Kobe/Shaq 1 on 2 and end their dynasty. His team as a whole played the Lakers as a whole.

If you're looking at individual competition, a very aging Mutombo was the only defender Duncan faced who was at an All-NBA level or thereabouts. On the other side of the ball, Duncan didn't even guard Shaq, who went off for a 25-14-4 series.

LeBron did all the defensive work he could, shutting down Alston and Turkeyglue, in the Magic series. For people who say he should have guarded Dwight, just . If for example the Spurs lost to the Nets in the '03 Finals, would you say Duncan should have picked up Kidd?

[bastillon]

09 who was lebrons opponents in the eastern playoffs?
KG?
03 duncan at least went through shaq/kome

If you're looking at individual competition, a very aging Mutombo was the only defender Duncan faced who was at an All-NBA level or thereabouts. On the other side of the ball, Duncan didn't even guard Shaq, who went off for a 25-14-4 series.

LeBron did all the defensive work he could, shutting down Alston and Turkeyglue, in the Magic series. For people who say he should have guarded Dwight, just . If for example the Spurs lost to the Nets in the '03 Finals, would you say Duncan should have picked up Kidd?

Duncan didn't really face Mutombo because he was rarely on the floor thanks to Scott's horrible coaching. he's actually a guy who would've easily contained Duncan. that'd be a terrible matchup for TD and very likely this decision cost Nets a championship. Mutombo could play back then.

also lmao @ LeBron shutting down Alston and Turkoglu. I guess boxscore tells you that though.

[bastillon]

that was a great read. Kwame not knowing who's on the logo, the wingspan debate, toughest matchups, defensive work... thanks drza