#9 Highest Peak of All Time (Duncan '03 wins)

[lorak]

I My order is still KG - Duncan - LeBron.

So you are voting for KG now, or it's still Duncan because of "anyone but LeBron"?

[colts18]

Does anyone have any numbers on LeBron's defense when he was guarding Durant in the finals? I saw a graphic of LeBron vs. Melo and LeBron dominated him.

[Lightning25]

Does anyone have any numbers on LeBron's defense when he was guarding Durant in the finals? I saw a graphic of LeBron vs. Melo and LeBron dominated him.

Lebron didn't guard Durant that much in the Finals, it was primarily Battier.

When Lebron was on Durant though, he would deny him the ball and he would do a good job of it and take him out for stretches. However, I think that there should be some blame for that as well on the Thunder players specifically Westbrook for not willing to re-post up or not willing to find different angles and ways to get Durant the ball.

[lorak]

I know the Magic were listed at #1 in defense in 2009 but it doesn't tell the whole story. Their perimeter defense was very weak.

BS. Magic's opponents perimeter players in the playoffs:

Iguodala 44.9 FG%, 21.5 ppg
Andre 47.5 FG%, 21.2 ppg
Lou 41.2 FG%, 9.7 ppg
Green 41.2 FG%, 7.8 ppg

Pierce 43.4 FG%, 18.9 ppg
Rondo 37.5 FG%, 14.3 ppg
Allen 34.4 FG%, 13.1 ppg

LeBron 48.7 FG%, 38.5 ppg
Mo 37.1 FG%, 18.3 ppg
West 44.9 ppg, 14.5 ppg

Kobe 43.0 FG%, 32.4 ppg
Ariza 35.7 FG%, 11 ppg
Fisher 50.0 FG%, 11 ppg

[lorak]

Does anyone have any numbers on LeBron's defense when he was guarding Durant in the finals? I saw a graphic of LeBron vs. Melo and LeBron dominated him.

Yeah, LeBron defended Melo MUCH better than Battier.
Against Durant he also was very good, for example in G3 he hold him to 2 of 6 from the field, 0-2 from the line, 1 rebound, 0 assists, 2 turnovers in the fourth quarter
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/ ... he-fourth/

[Lightning25]

I know the Magic were listed at #1 in defense in 2009 but it doesn't tell the whole story. Their perimeter defense was very weak.

BS. Magic's opponents perimeter players in the playoffs:

Iguodala 44.9 FG%, 21.5 ppg
Andre 47.5 FG%, 21.2 ppg
Lou 41.2 FG%, 9.7 ppg
Green 41.2 FG%, 7.8 ppg

Pierce 43.4 FG%, 18.9 ppg
Rondo 37.5 FG%, 14.3 ppg
Allen 34.4 FG%, 13.1 ppg

LeBron 48.7 FG%, 38.5 ppg
Mo 37.1 FG%, 18.3 ppg
West 44.9 ppg, 14.5 ppg

Kobe 43.0 FG%, 32.4 ppg
Ariza 35.7 FG%, 11 ppg
Fisher 50.0 FG%, 11 ppg

Ariza, West, Mo? Really?

Ray and Pierce were past their prime by then and those two were probably fatigue from that grueling 1st round series against the Bulls where practically every game went to double and triple OT.

Iguodala, Kobe, and Andre proves my point. You can also check out the numbers other star perimeter players put up against them in the regular season like Wade, Kobe, Dirk, etc.

[bastillon]

ever since mystic made me realise my analysis of Dirk's game was based on his undeserved bad reputation and people's prejudice against unconventional bigs I'm 100% on the same page with colts on this one. there were some terrible comments in this thread about Dirk, even moreso when you realise they came from prominent posters.

The crux of this - why this is a particular issue with Dirk in terms of portability - that Dirk doesn't actually do that much compared other megastars. He's an amazing shooter who is very tall, and he makes good decisions. Yes his shooting will be valued anywhere, but his value in Dallas at this point goes far beyond that.

I couldn't believe what I read. is that seriously your assesment of Dirk's game ? then how the hell is it possible that Dirk's entire cast changed twice or more over the course of last decade and this "tall shooter who makes good decisions" was having Garnett-like impact ? where did that came from ? perhaps Dirk is A LOT MORE than a shooter. first of all, Dirk is a great scorer. not only does he shoot over the top but he's great with pump fakes, he's a crafty ballhandler and he gets to the line a lot, good finisher as well. doesn't turn the ball over. underrated passer. phenomenal screen setter. great at moving without the ball. offensively you can't find a flaw in his game. you can't stop Dirk in any way after he developed low post game. "portability" is an issue with Nash, Magic, LeBron, Erving because they all need the ball in their hands. players like Dirk are the most portable players ever.

See I just don't see the data you posted -- which I assume everyone in this discussion already knew -- and say "top 5 offensive player ever!" Just from a peak perspective, why would you take him over, say, Kobe Bryant?

so Kobe Bryant isn't even close to top5 offensive players ever ? is it somehow bad to be as good as Kobe on offense ?

Then you get into the bigger issue with Dirk in this context, which is his defense. He's always been underrated as a defender, well above replacement (and a positive IMO at his best, which is I tend to side with 06 Dirk), but man, he's a PF. He's giving up a lot in that area, like Barkley (and how is he better than Barkley on offense!?). When I'm building dominant teams, Dirk is forcing me to get a defensively oriented big and then making the sacrifice that I probably can't hit a dominant ceiling on defense with him as my 4. And Dirk isn't really functional playing the 3 (how would that work)?

lmao, Barkley was clearly a lot worse than Dirk as a defender. he doesn't have the length, basketball IQ, positioning or timing that Dirk has. you can argue Barkley was a net negative on defense, Dirk has been a clear positive the last couple of years. he's ranked among the top in Synergy man-defense stats, he's been among the best RAPM defenders, Mavs defense was vastly improved with him on the floor and even without Chandler last year they were able to somewhat sustain their defensive efficiency. I'd like to see some evidence that Karl Malone is a better defender than Dirk, for example. Malone is a great man defender but he's overrated overall as he was never good at lateral movement so he couldn't help and recover like Dirk could.

And Dallas tried just that for many years. Only there wasn't a single dominant team from my POV. It's confusing to then hear you say "top-5 offensive player and Sacred peak" player after watching his career unfold, apparently, because his team narrowly won a title last year.

To me, this kind of talk either comes down to Winning Bias or just a major over-emphasis on one-on-one play...and you know where I stand on both issues.

I don't know, maybe ahonui (DIRK fan) has him that high for those reasons. but guys like colts and me love his impact and postseason efficiency. maybe there wasn't a single dominant team from your perspective but at the same time those teams were net negatives with Dirk off the floor so it's hard to imagine the impact Dirk would've had to have to make them historically good or anything. plus if you actually look at those numbers, you'll notice some of those teams dominating the league with Dirk on the floor. so the reason why they weren't dominant as a team overall is because of how poorly they played without him, which is hard to put on his shoulders. "winning bias" is definitely not the reason we're advocating for him; it's his level of play - amazing production, efficiency and impact, particularly in the postseason.

[therealbig3]

I have Dirk's peak at 14, right after the top 13.

I'd take Dirk's peak over T-Mac/Wade/Kobe/K. Malone/Oscar/West/Barkley/Robinson, personally. His peak is getting underrated here, dude's a monster offensive force, a good defender, and an excellent defensive rebounder. He did have some holes in his game pre-08, but he was still an MVP-caliber player. He became literally unstoppable after he added his mid-post arsenal after his really poor 07 showing in the playoffs.

I'd personally say his peak was 08 or 09.

[lorak]

I know the Magic were listed at #1 in defense in 2009 but it doesn't tell the whole story. Their perimeter defense was very weak.

BS. Magic's opponents perimeter players in the playoffs:

Iguodala 44.9 FG%, 21.5 ppg
Andre 47.5 FG%, 21.2 ppg
Lou 41.2 FG%, 9.7 ppg
Green 41.2 FG%, 7.8 ppg

Pierce 43.4 FG%, 18.9 ppg
Rondo 37.5 FG%, 14.3 ppg
Allen 34.4 FG%, 13.1 ppg

LeBron 48.7 FG%, 38.5 ppg
Mo 37.1 FG%, 18.3 ppg
West 44.9 ppg, 14.5 ppg

Kobe 43.0 FG%, 32.4 ppg
Ariza 35.7 FG%, 11 ppg
Fisher 50.0 FG%, 11 ppg

Ariza, West, Mo? Really?

You said Magic perimeter defense was very weak. So I showed how perimeter players performed vs Magic in playoffs. And with few exceptions most of them played worse than during rest of postseason. And you can't use fatigue as excuse, because for example Pierce also played bad vs ORL during regular season: 43.5 FG%. And Kobe's 43 FG% in no way proves your point. It shows you are wrong and LeBron played against great defensive team. Besides, he scored most of his points inside the paint and there was always Dwight (or very good defensively Gortat) with help, so WTF are you talking about?

[Revv]

kobe in that series: 32.4 PPG/7.4 RPG/5.6 APG/54% TS/9% TOV rate.

yeah, they really shut him down.

[lorak]

kobe in that series: 32.4 PPG/7.4 RPG/5.6 APG/54% TS/9% TOV rate.

yeah, they really shut him down.

I'm not saying Magic shut him down... But he played worse against Magic than during rest of the postseason. So how anyone can say Magic defense was very weak? And keep in mind LeBron was different player than Bryant, he attacked basket a lot more, so Dwight presence affected him a lot more than perimeter oriented Kobe.

[ardee]

kobe in that series: 32.4 PPG/7.4 RPG/5.6 APG/54% TS/9% TOV rate.

yeah, they really shut him down.

I'm not saying Magic shut him down... But he played worse against Magic than during rest of the postseason. So how anyone can say Magic defense was very weak? And keep in mind LeBron was different player than Kobe, he attacked basket a lot more, so Dwight presence affected him a lot more than Kobe.

Utah: 27/5/6 on 57% TS.
Houston: 27/5/4 on 54% TS.
Denver: 34/6/6 o 63% TS.

Orlando was his second best series, arguably his best if you consider the difference in the defensive rating of the Magic and the Nuggets.

[lorak]

^
results vs Jazz are screwed because of one game. Against Nuggets he played a lot better than vs Magic. Against HOU he faced Artest so it's no supraise he played worse. But, as I said and you didn't respond to that: LeBron attacked the basket a lot more than Kobe, so he was affected by Dwight a lot more than perimeter oriented Kobe. Anyway, saying Magic's perimeter defense was very weak is simply BS.

[parapooper]

kobe in that series: 32.4 PPG/7.4 RPG/5.6 APG/54% TS/9% TOV rate.

yeah, they really shut him down.

I'm not saying Magic shut him down... But he played worse against Magic than during rest of the postseason. So how anyone can say Magic defense was very weak? And keep in mind LeBron was different player than Bryant, he attacked basket a lot more, so Dwight presence affected him a lot more than perimeter oriented Kobe.

All true, and of course Kobe's TS was actually 52.5%TS not 54%TS.
So that terrible magic perimeter defense (which Kobe would benefit much more from than LeBron) held an arguably top10 all-time offensive player at his peak to about league average efficiency (possibly below), while LeBron scored 38.5pts @ 59.1%TS.

[parapooper]

kobe in that series: 32.4 PPG/7.4 RPG/5.6 APG/54% TS/9% TOV rate.

yeah, they really shut him down.

I'm not saying Magic shut him down... But he played worse against Magic than during rest of the postseason. So how anyone can say Magic defense was very weak? And keep in mind LeBron was different player than Kobe, he attacked basket a lot more, so Dwight presence affected him a lot more than Kobe.

Utah: 27/5/6 on 57% TS.
Houston: 27/5/4 on 54% TS.
Denver: 34/6/6 o 63% TS.

Orlando was his second best series, arguably his best if you consider the difference in the defensive rating of the Magic and the Nuggets.

So you are basically using the fact that Orlando had a great defense to argue that Orlando's defense was bad.

[parapooper]

LeBron in 09 statistically:

regular season:
leads the league in PER, WS, WS/48, RAPM (noone else had a higher one since 2002 (=start of availability)) and team record (despite meh team!)
is 2nd in defensive WS behind Dwight
PER - 4th best of all time (behind only Wilt, MJ)
WS/48 - 6th best of all time (behind only KAJ, Wilt, MJ)
--> pretty much top3 regular season of all time

postseason:
leads league in postseason PER, WS and WS/48
PER - best of all time by a huge margin among extended postseasons
WS/48 - see above
WS - 3rd highest of all time despite only 14 games
PS clutch eFG 60.5%
"fails" while putting up 38.5@59.1%TS, 8.3, 8 against the best defense in the league

bonus:
best clutch stats, which, while we don't have MJ's clutch stats, must be in GOAT territory
(last 5 min of games within 5 per 48):
55.9 @ 67%TS, 14.3, 12.6, 3.5, 1.7

How did this season even get down to 9th? Statistically it was pretty much a top3 regular season of all time and then he followed it up with BY FAR the best statistical postseason of all time. How is it his fault his teammates underperformed terribly against a hot-shooting Orlando team in the ECF?

It's a miracle what he did with that team anyway. Who else has ever had the #1 record in the league leading such a pile of mediocrity?

And those teammates were wildly overrated because they played with LeBron anyway.
Anyone remember the Amare for Hickson rumors? Here are Hickson's RAPM rankings:
2009: -5.1 =3rd worst in the entire NBA
2010: -5.3 =4th worst in the entire NBA
2011: -5.7 = worst in the entire NBA
2012: -3.7 = peak Hickson- 19th worst in the entire NBA
Not that Amare is that great (benefited from Nash like Hickson did from LeBron) but still - wtf

Look at Clevelands main minute players and check how their FG% changed from 2009-2010 with LeBron to 2010-2011 on the same team without LeBron:
Varejao 57% -> 53%
Jamison 49% -> 43%
Parker 43% -> 40%
M.Williams 44% -> 39%
Hickson 55% -> 46%
Gibson 47% -> 40%
Moon 46% -> 40
J. Williams 39% -> 33%
Can you spot the trend?


LeBron's RS+PS WS lead on his #2 teammate was 14.1WS. Nobody has ever won with such a gap on his second best teammate, except Duncan in 2003 who had 14.1WS more than DRob - but only because he played 18 more games than Robinson. The largest WS gaps for players who won titles:
Duncan 03 14.1
Wilt 67 13.3
Wade 06 11.4
MJ 98 11.1
MJ 91 11.0
KAJ 71 10.9
Shaq 00 10.6
MJ 93 10.1
MJ 96 9.8
In 2010 LeBron again had a +12.1WS lead on his #2 and was ridiculed for not winning.
For comparison, the largest whole-season WS-lead on his #2 for Kobe in a title-year: minus 0.8
(average minus 3.8WS)

[C-izMe]

03 Duncan - 4 (PTB Fan, C-izMe, Josephpaul, Dr Positivity)

So tell me PTB Fan, C-izMe, Josephpaul and Dr Positivity - why Duncan 03 over LJ 09 or 12?

I would take him if I'm starting a team over Lebron 09 (12 isn't even on the same level IMO). He's definetly a better defender, just as good of a playoff performer, and he carried a supporting cast on the same level of Lebron's.

[semi-sentient]

bonus:
best clutch stats, which, while we don't have MJ's clutch stats, must be in GOAT territory
(last 5 min of games within 5 per 48):
55.9 @ 67%TS, 14.3, 12.6, 3.5, 1.7

What do these numbers mean? Which ones are rebounds? Assists?

Without labels these are just a bunch of meaningless numbers.

[colts18]

bonus:
best clutch stats, which, while we don't have MJ's clutch stats, must be in GOAT territory
(last 5 min of games within 5 per 48):
55.9 @ 67%TS, 14.3, 12.6, 3.5, 1.7

What do these numbers mean? Which ones are rebounds? Assists?

Without labels these are just a bunch of meaningless numbers.

It's 56 points, 14 rebounds, 13 assists, 4 stls, 2 blks per 48 minutes. Here are the numbers and the leader-board for those stats in 09:

http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

[parapooper]

bonus:
best clutch stats, which, while we don't have MJ's clutch stats, must be in GOAT territory
(last 5 min of games within 5 per 48):
55.9 @ 67%TS, 14.3, 12.6, 3.5, 1.7

What do these numbers mean? Which ones are rebounds? Assists?

Without labels these are just a bunch of meaningless numbers.

Great point, clearly 14ast/13rbd vs. 14rbd/13ast would have changed everything.