"Only way to avoid 'super teams' is to impose a hard cap."

[BadMofoPimp]

I have come to the realization that the Orlando Magic will never compete for a NBA title ever again. It just can't happen. There will always be the big 5 or 6 while there will always be 24 teams praying to get lucky in the draft and lottery like OKC while they can compete for 3-4 years before back to the bottom.

Stern should split the league in two so we have an Elite league (IBA) that is expanded worldwide with teams in Europe, China, Russia etc with no cap then have a regular league of teams (NBA) with a hard cap. Then, we can actually get to root for teams with parity while we can also root for superstars in the elite league.

[eatyourchildren]

I have come to the realization that the Orlando Magic will never compete for a NBA title ever again. It just can't happen. There will always be the big 5 or 6 while there will always be 24 teams praying to get lucky in the draft and lottery like OKC while they can compete for 3-4 years before back to the bottom.

Stern should split the league in two so we have an Elite league (IBA) that is expanded worldwide with teams in Europe, China, Russia etc with no cap then have a regular league of teams (NBA) with a hard cap. Then, we can actually get to root for teams with parity while we can also root for superstars in the elite league.

The Magic got the 2 best centers of the past 2 decades and didn't win a single championship with EITHER of them. How is this possible?

[Dennis 37]

I would allow teams to pay their own draft picks, after the rookie contract expires, whatever they want. That salary, if over the max would follow a player if traded, but the new team would have to count that entire salary as part of their cap. If a player left as a free agent, he could only get the max. Sign and trades, for over the max, would not be allowed.

Now this has some reality to it to a degree. The part I put in bold would actually lead to at least smarter and more diligent trades. Teams would have to be willing to make a sound judgement on the player they're trading for. I also like not allowing sign and trades for max money.

This arrangement would allow drafting teams more leverage to keep their drafted players, but would not prevent top echelon players from moving if they were willing to take a significant paycut. Not just a minimal paycut, negated by lack of income taxes in Florida, that LeBron and Bosh took.

So the Lakers would still be able to compile superteams, but the incentive for the top echelon player to stay at his original team would be increased. Levels the playing field a bit.

[eatyourchildren]

I don't like any system that would have forced LeBron to play in basketball purgatory for the rest of his life instead of submitting this season that all NBA fans got to enjoy.

I'm 150% against that.

[Dennis 37]

I have come to the realization that the Orlando Magic will never compete for a NBA title ever again. It just can't happen. There will always be the big 5 or 6 while there will always be 24 teams praying to get lucky in the draft and lottery like OKC while they can compete for 3-4 years before back to the bottom.
.

Welcome to the world of the Toronto Raptors fan.

[DanTown8587]

I would allow teams to pay their own draft picks, after the rookie contract expires, whatever they want. That salary, if over the max would follow a player if traded, but the new team would have to count that entire salary as part of their cap. If a player left as a free agent, he could only get the max. Sign and trades, for over the max, would not be allowed.

Now this has some reality to it to a degree. The part I put in bold would actually lead to at least smarter and more diligent trades. Teams would have to be willing to make a sound judgement on the player they're trading for. I also like not allowing sign and trades for max money.

This arrangement would allow drafting teams more leverage to keep their drafted players, but would not prevent top echelon players from moving if they were willing to take a significant paycut. Not just a minimal paycut, negated by lack of income taxes in Florida, that LeBron and Bosh took.

So the Lakers would still be able to compile superteams, but the incentive for the top echelon player to stay at his original team would be increased. Levels the playing field a bit.

You're essentially arguing for no max. Which means that any team with no cap space could sign players and then you haven't changed anything.

The best argument I can come up with is the 150% of the max to one guy who gets a full No Trade clause but if he is ever traded, his salary reverts back to the max. The extra 50% is not included in BRI distribution and it is not included in luxury tax payments. That money is literally coming out of an owners pocket.

To qualify for the contract, you have to be on the same team at least through the life of a four year contract (rookie deals qualify) and have played made an All-NBA team twice or finished top 5 in the MVP once.

[DanTown8587]

I have come to the realization that the Seattle Supersonics will never compete for a NBA title ever again. It just can't happen. There will always be the big 5 or 6 while there will always be 24 teams praying to get lucky in the draft and lottery like San Antonio while they can compete for 3-4 years before back to the bottom.

Stern should split the league in two so we have an Elite league (IBA) that is expanded worldwide with teams in Europe, China, Russia etc with no cap then have a regular league of teams (NBA) with a hard cap. Then, we can actually get to root for teams with parity while we can also root for superstars in the elite league.

Drafted in April of 2007.

Five years later, the Sonics (now Thunder) played for a NBA title.

You need luck, of course, but it's possible.

[eatyourchildren]

Probably co-sign from Mavs fans as well. They got a new, better owner in Cuban, a better front office, and then they win a title as a semi-cindarella team.

[BadMofoPimp]

Well, the Pistons title run was special in the sense they had no superstars. But, them days are over. I like OKC, but they got lucky with (4) draft picks. How rare is that? Anyways, there are 24 other teams out there trying to be the next Thunder. But, I doubt the Thunder stick around for the long term. Being that Kobe is going to retire in about 2-3 years, that is about the time Durant becomes a Laker to play alongside Dwight.

[Dennis 37]

I don't like any system that would have forced LeBron to play in basketball purgatory for the rest of his life instead of submitting this season that all NBA fans got to enjoy.

I'm 150% against that.

I haven't seen a system proposed that woul force LeBron to stay anywhere. I have only seen systems proposed that would make his choice more difficult. Do I stay in Cleveland at 30 million, or do I go to Miami for 20 or 15 ? He is still free to go, he just has to make more of a financial sacrifice.

Why do you assume that all NBA fans enjoy watching superteams? I, for one, do not mainly due to superstar calls. I'm tired of my announcer saying, "He hasn't been in the league long enough to get that call." Well, when you are the Raptors, in a constant state of rebuilding, you will always have at least two starters that "haven't been in the league long enough". It's bull.

If we accept your logic, that it is unfair for a player to be forced to play in a certain city, then it follows that it is unfair to expect a draft pick to play in a certain city. Examples; Steve Francis and Eric Lindros
Why not just get rid of the draft entirely, as we're only fooling the fans of the lesser teams anyway? Just let players sign where they want to be. What about trades? What if a player, that signed to a team in a city he wished to be, is traded? How is that fair? What if he was traded to the Raptors and he is from southern California? His family will rarely be able to see him play on TV. Should that player not be able to refuse to be traded and say no thanks I'd rather stay here, I have a right not to have to play in purgatory?


Can you argue for the rights of one, just because he is more talented, and not argue for the rights of others?

[Woodsanity]

I have come to the realization that the Orlando Magic will never compete for a NBA title ever again. It just can't happen. There will always be the big 5 or 6 while there will always be 24 teams praying to get lucky in the draft and lottery like OKC while they can compete for 3-4 years before back to the bottom.

Stern should split the league in two so we have an Elite league (IBA) that is expanded worldwide with teams in Europe, China, Russia etc with no cap then have a regular league of teams (NBA) with a hard cap. Then, we can actually get to root for teams with parity while we can also root for superstars in the elite league.

You guys had Shaq(freakin Shaq!) and Dwight. If anything the Magic were very lucky. The Magic would have won at least one championship if it was not for an extremely incompetent FO.

[Dennis 37]

You're essentially arguing for no max. Which means that any team with no cap space could sign players and then you haven't changed anything.

The best argument I can come up with is the 150% of the max to one guy who gets a full No Trade clause but if he is ever traded, his salary reverts back to the max. The extra 50% is not included in BRI distribution and it is not included in luxury tax payments. That money is literally coming out of an owners pocket.

To qualify for the contract, you have to be on the same team at least through the life of a four year contract (rookie deals qualify) and have played made an All-NBA team twice or finished top 5 in the MVP once.

No, I'm arguing that a only a teams' draft picks have no max, but only count against the team's cap at a level that would allow a team to keep all of its draft picks. The Thunder, of whom I am not a fan, should be able to keep all of its draft picks, if it so chooses. If the player leaves as a free agent the most he can expect is the max. He could not get the 150% you are proposing. Your system does nothing to give more leverage to the drafting team. The problem in the league, is that the drafting teams do not have enough leverage.

Why would you give a no trade clause. If the guy starts to slack off, you trade him.

[DanTown8587]

You're essentially arguing for no max. Which means that any team with no cap space could sign players and then you haven't changed anything.

The best argument I can come up with is the 150% of the max to one guy who gets a full No Trade clause but if he is ever traded, his salary reverts back to the max. The extra 50% is not included in BRI distribution and it is not included in luxury tax payments. That money is literally coming out of an owners pocket.

To qualify for the contract, you have to be on the same team at least through the life of a four year contract (rookie deals qualify) and have played made an All-NBA team twice or finished top 5 in the MVP once.

No, I'm arguing that a only a teams' draft picks have no max, but only count against the team's cap at a level that would allow a team to keep all of its draft picks. The Thunder, of whom I am not a fan, should be able to keep all of its draft picks, if it so chooses. If the player leaves as a free agent the most he can expect is the max. He could not get the 150% you are proposing. Your system does nothing to give more leverage to the drafting team. The problem in the league, is that the drafting teams do not have enough leverage.

Why would you give a no trade clause. If the guy starts to slack off, you trade him.

You need to re-read my proposal, I was clear that a player couldn't get this offer from any team other than his current one.

The No-Trade clause is protection for the player. If he loses the bonus by getting traded, he has to have protection against that. And if he slacks off, he's getting paid tens of millions more on his current team, he really isn't going to give that up.

[Bulls Heero 81]

I don't like any system that would have forced LeBron to play in basketball purgatory for the rest of his life instead of submitting this season that all NBA fans got to enjoy.

I'm 150% against that.

I haven't seen a system proposed that woul force LeBron to stay anywhere. I have only seen systems proposed that would make his choice more difficult. Do I stay in Cleveland at 30 million, or do I go to Miami for 20 or 15 ? He is still free to go, he just has to make more of a financial sacrifice.

Why do you assume that all NBA fans enjoy watching superteams? I, for one, do not mainly due to superstar calls. I'm tired of my announcer saying, "He hasn't been in the league long enough to get that call." Well, when you are the Raptors, in a constant state of rebuilding, you will always have at least two starters that "haven't been in the league long enough". It's bull.

If we accept your logic, that it is unfair for a player to be forced to play in a certain city, then it follows that it is unfair to expect a draft pick to play in a certain city. Examples; Steve Francis and Eric Lindros
Why not just get rid of the draft entirely, as we're only fooling the fans of the lesser teams anyway? Just let players sign where they want to be. What about trades? What if a player, that signed to a team in a city he wished to be, is traded? How is that fair? What if he was traded to the Raptors and he is from southern California? His family will rarely be able to see him play on TV. Should that player not be able to refuse to be traded and say no thanks I'd rather stay here, I have a right not to have to play in purgatory?


Can you argue for the rights of one, just because he is more talented, and not argue for the rights of others?

No one is assuming, because it's true for casual fans. The TV contracts and ratings tells us what people are watching and what is being paid in advertising. Even Michael Jordan's highest rated Finals average doesn't compare to many World Series' or NFL football games and Super Bowls.

Dennis, basketball like hockey, soccer, mma, boxing, golf, maybe even baseball are niche sports in America. Football is the only sport that is religion in this country, because here just love football because it gives society so much, violence (gladiator), a man's sport (toughness), ability to be lazy (Sunday), easy to follow schedules (Sunday), being able to gamble and plan for it (once a week). We love it so much we don't care if those guys get hurt and kill their futures. We don't care about the exploitation of college football players or college football parity (doesn't exist). No one really cares about parity in football, some people like to think so, but it's not what drives them to love the game. The NFL didn't have real free agency til the early 90's or a salary cap and many of the great teams were always there. Yet the highest Super Bowl ratings were games played in the early 80's/90's. Ironically, the NBA was the first big league to introduce both the salary cap and the individual max contract, go figure. So when people bring up parity today, it makes me smile knowing football was huge way back before the words "competitive balance" and "parity" became common praises of the NFL. Hell, five players could die on the weekend and it wouldn't hurt our love for that game. It is what it is. Shows called "Friday Night Lights" and "Playmakers" were either mainstream hits or had a cult following. High school football is an institution here.Am I saying that those niche sports can't grow? No. However, we are expecting too much of a niche sport to be as popular as football in our culture.

[DiscoLives4ever]

I don't like any system that would have forced LeBron to play in basketball purgatory for the rest of his life instead of submitting this season that all NBA fans got to enjoy.

I'm 150% against that.

What about a system where he has the choice of Cleveland at $30-$35mil/year vs his current salary in Miami?

[eatyourchildren]

I am okay with that. Hard cap isn't the barrier here. Max salary is.

[Don Draper]

I don't like any system that would have forced LeBron to play in basketball purgatory for the rest of his life instead of submitting this season that all NBA fans got to enjoy.

I'm 150% against that.

What about a system where he has the choice of Cleveland at $30-$35mil/year vs his current salary in Miami?

Why does Lebron have to be boxed into those two choices? I don't get why you guys want to tie stars down to the teams that drafted them for an indefinite period time for an idea that may or may not benefit the league. Why would anyone give a cartel even more power over labor? Makes very little sense.

[BadMofoPimp]

Why does Lebron have to be boxed into those two choices? I don't get why you guys want to tie stars down to the teams that drafted them for an indefinite period time for an idea that may or may not benefit the league. Why would anyone give a cartel even more power over labor? Makes very little sense.

Why have teams in Cleveland, Milwaukee or any other small market. Lets just make the NBA a Six team league and have the elite players go at it. Because, your rationale means the rest of the teams go bankrupt being no fans show up to their arena's to watch a team that will never win a championship and is just a farm team for the Big Markets. If there was no cap, the NBA would probably go out of business in the end.

[Don Draper]

Why does this board have such a hard on for unrealistic, doomsday scenarios? SMH

Why have teams in Cleveland, Milwaukee or any other small market.

Because there is obvious market for professional basketball in Cleveland and Milwaukee.

Lets just make the NBA a Six team league and have the elite players go at it. Not based on anything factual. Because, your rationale means the rest of the teams go bankrupt being no fans show up to their arena's to watch a team that will never win a championship and is just a farm team for the Big Markets. If there was no cap, the NBA would probably go out of business in the end.

Based on what?

This is another problem with these "debates". A lot of people tend to make up scenarios based on what they think would happen. I'm not sure how you expect someone to respond to something that you completely invented from thin air.

BTW leagues without salary caps are in existence today and many of them haven't had work stoppages in years.

[BadMofoPimp]

Fortunately, there is not a chance in hell that the NBA would eliminate the salary cap. Actually, I think they will end up restricting the cap even moreso. But, I think the majority of the basketball fans believe in a cap system while players and their diehard fans can complain about it. Actually, I think Don Draper is one of the 2 or 3 on these forums that believe in a capless system. And, that may be the only person I ever heard of supporting such a system. Thus, it is not going to happen since the fans don't want to see it happen regardless of what players wish for.