Official Speculation Thread (Pt. XLVI "Re-Building" Edition)

[thelead]

It is all a crap shoot. Magic almost took Okafor over Dwight. Just saying that the Magic could just as easily be mired like the Bobcats for the next decade than actually get the right pieces. It isn't that easy. That is why it was so important to try to get something out of a trade with Howard instead of just late 1st round picks.

There are too many if's now. Now, you have to win the lottery and pick a player that will at least be a superstar. And, with only late round draft picks, that will be so much harder to find those players.

We obviously picked the right player in that draft, but who's to say Emeka wouldn't have turned out to being a better player if he had the same pieces around him. Dwight could have easily had a much tougher go at it if he'd went to Charlotte.

Who's to say Okafor didn't turn into a DPOY or even a better player if he'd played with Francis/Shard/Nelson/Turk.

A lot of what ifs, it would have been very interesting to see how Okafor would have turned out had he come here instead.

[OMPunk]

It is all a crap shoot. Magic almost took Okafor over Dwight. Just saying that the Magic could just as easily be mired like the Bobcats for the next decade than actually get the right pieces. It isn't that easy. That is why it was so important to try to get something out of a trade with Howard instead of just late 1st round picks.

There are too many if's now. Now, you have to win the lottery and pick a player that will at least be a superstar. And, with only late round draft picks, that will be so much harder to find those players.

We obviously picked the right player in that draft, but who's to say Emeka wouldn't have turned out to being a better player if he had the same pieces around him. Dwight could have easily had a much tougher go at it if he'd went to Charlotte.

Who's to say Okafor didn't turn into a DPOY or even a better player if he'd played with Francis/Shard/Nelson/Turk.

A lot of what ifs, it would have been very interesting to see how Okafor would have turned out had he come here instead.

Laugh all you want but players getting put into different situations have different outcomes, and your ignorant to not believe that.

[BadMofoPimp]

It is not possible for Okafor to have the physical presence of Dwight power. It is not in his genes or biological makeup.

[thelead]

Laugh all you want but players getting put into different situations have different outcomes, and your ignorant to not believe that.

To an extent, yeah. But not from Okafor to what Dwight became.

[j_n]

We obviously picked the right player in that draft, but who's to say Emeka wouldn't have turned out to being a better player if he had the same pieces around him. Dwight could have easily had a much tougher go at it if he'd went to Charlotte.

Who's to say Okafor didn't turn into a DPOY or even a better player if he'd played with Francis/Shard/Nelson/Turk.

A lot of what ifs, it would have been very interesting to see how Okafor would have turned out had he come here instead.

So you think that the enviroment which a player falls into doesnt play a part in what kind of player he will turn out to be?
Do you also think its a coinsidence that so many Nba players have children that become NBA players?
Do you also think that leadership qualities in players are meaningless?

[ChildishGambino]

@thelead
Put it this way then....Moe's ballhandling is better than J-rich's and improving....At 19 years old i think i can give him a bit of time to develop that....Either way this kid has potential to be very good....didn't see it at first but after i did a bit of reading.....what gm's said about him....what opposing coaches said about him....his own coach said about him....his potential is sky-high imo...from here on out it's all about the work ethic to become great.....

[Bensational]

I just think people are expecting a bit too much out of Harden. Superstar players, #1 options, are able to affect the game in more than one way. Outside of scoring, which Harden is really good at, I don't see where he excels. He's certainly not a #1 option right now. Solely adding Harden to this team doesn't even make it a playoff team. We're still banking on the hope that we can draft really well and that those guys pan out.

Harden is a playmaker who can run an offense, not just score. if he were to have the ball in his hands as much as Durant and Westbrook, he'd average over 5apg and over 20ppg. it's also not just the fact that he scores, but that he scores in an efficient and intelligent way. he gets to the line consistently, he knocks down 3's at a high clip, and he's got the ball handling to take guys off the dribble.

And I'm still convinced that we could possibly draft someone with his skill set in the draft (e.g. Shabazz) and he'd still be on a rookie deal as opposed to a max.

Plus, taking the Thunder's 3rd or 4th best player to be our best player just doesn't sit well with me. We're going to need guys on KD and Westbrook's level to take us far. That will come thru the draft.

i'm all for landing gems in the draft, and i have faith in Hennigan's ability to draft well, but how many rookies just don't pan out? Shabazz might be OJ Mayo. Wiggins might be PJ3 part 2. what we need is Kobe or Wade, and they are few and far between. just how many SGs are on their level currently? none, it's a 2 horse race at the 2.

[OrlandoMajinBuu]

I saw these on a Raptors thread. And I would love to share them on here. Jaja
I hope it doesn't bring discussion around here!

[magicman123]

Is gay a star? No, so I would wait on him, he would only make this team average while hampering our draft pick, he would prolong the rebuilding project, plus he eats up to much salary, the time is not now, maybe this time next year after the draft, but we need atleast 1 year of a good draft pick, I think thats what management wants

Let's TANK for a good draft pick, OK!!
@magicman123

I would TANK if there was a Lebron, Ewing, Hakeem, Shaq, D12, or Duncan type prospect who would come into league and be an all-star by 2nd year, so I ask DO YOU SEE anyone coming out on that level???

is gay worth 1/3 of the magics payroll? NO, dudes not that good

[Def Swami]

I just think people are expecting a bit too much out of Harden. Superstar players, #1 options, are able to affect the game in more than one way. Outside of scoring, which Harden is really good at, I don't see where he excels. He's certainly not a #1 option right now. Solely adding Harden to this team doesn't even make it a playoff team. We're still banking on the hope that we can draft really well and that those guys pan out.

Harden is a playmaker who can run an offense, not just score. if he were to have the ball in his hands as much as Durant and Westbrook, he'd average over 5apg and over 20ppg. it's also not just the fact that he scores, but that he scores in an efficient and intelligent way. he gets to the line consistently, he knocks down 3's at a high clip, and he's got the ball handling to take guys off the dribble.

And I'm still convinced that we could possibly draft someone with his skill set in the draft (e.g. Shabazz) and he'd still be on a rookie deal as opposed to a max.

Plus, taking the Thunder's 3rd or 4th best player to be our best player just doesn't sit well with me. We're going to need guys on KD and Westbrook's level to take us far. That will come thru the draft.

i'm all for landing gems in the draft, and i have faith in Hennigan's ability to draft well, but how many rookies just don't pan out? Shabazz might be OJ Mayo. Wiggins might be PJ3 part 2. what we need is Kobe or Wade, and they are few and far between. just how many SGs are on their level currently? none, it's a 2 horse race at the 2.

And what I'm saying is that Harden is not Kobe or Wade. He's not a guy to lead a team deep into the playoffs. Good compliment, but not a horse. And since we don't see many of those available in free agency, I say drafting one is our best shot. I don't mind getting Harden and he's actually one of my favorite players in the league. But I do think it's a bit naive for some to think he can be a #1 option. He's going to need some help and in order for our team to be a real contender, it'll need a real 1st or 2nd all-NBA team player.

And thinking practically, our best chance of getting Harden would be having to trade for him, IF OKC decides to do so, in which we would almost certainly have to part ways with some nice trade assets and potentially our lottery pick. I don't think it's worth it. I think a lot of risk comes with that.

If he were to hit free agency, I doubt we, as a rebuilding situation, would be his first choice.

[Bensational]

Harden is more than just a scorer he is a solid distributor....bottom line he makes his teammates better....either way i like that fact that we have a shot to do it both ways free agency and through the draft....putting all your eggs in just the draft basket might be a bit dangerous.....that's why we have flexibility to draft well and the ability to get a big time free agent

He averaged 3.7 assists per game last season, and 4.2 assists per 36 minutes. He makes good decisions with the ball and has a high basketball IQ, but it's not like he's a masterful playmaker. He just allows KD and Westbrook to be in attack mode while dribbling the ball up.

i wouldn't call Durant or Westbrook masterful playmakers either. they're athletic and offensively talented, and that allows them to find the open man once they create space for them by drawing defenders.

[ChildishGambino]

The way i see it about Harden is he's basically the next best SG in the league after the kobe's and wade's really start to feel father time's effects....i mean after those two who's the next premier 2 in the league? Harden is 23 and is basically already a star in the league and has enough respect to make Team USA i mean they don't let anybody on that team.....nothing is set in stone but sometimes just sometimes all it takes is for someone to get an opportunity to be the man....you never know for sure if he doesn't have what it takes to be a number 1 option....hasn't had the opportunity....but to me in Harden's case of him not being a Number 1 it wouldn't be because of a lack of skill....anyone who says he can't be number 1 because he doesn't have the skills is lying to themselves.....i think it it's a matter of mentality....does he have a number 1 instinct? that's the real question imo.....

[Def Swami]

Harden is more than just a scorer he is a solid distributor....bottom line he makes his teammates better....either way i like that fact that we have a shot to do it both ways free agency and through the draft....putting all your eggs in just the draft basket might be a bit dangerous.....that's why we have flexibility to draft well and the ability to get a big time free agent

He averaged 3.7 assists per game last season, and 4.2 assists per 36 minutes. He makes good decisions with the ball and has a high basketball IQ, but it's not like he's a masterful playmaker. He just allows KD and Westbrook to be in attack mode while dribbling the ball up.

i wouldn't call Durant or Westbrook masterful playmakers either. they're athletic and offensively talented, and that allows them to find the open man once they create space for them by drawing defenders.

It's certainly a weakness of theirs. But they are match up nightmares for opponents and can draw double teams with ease, enabling themselves to create shots for others. I don't think Harden poses that threat, yet.

[Def Swami]

Do we actually have a legitimate shot at landing James Harden?

[Bensational]

And what I'm saying is that Harden is not Kobe or Wade. He's not a guy to lead a team deep into the playoffs. Good compliment, but not a horse. And since we don't see many of those available in free agency, I say drafting one is our best shot. I don't mind getting Harden and he's actually one of my favorite players in the league. But I do think it's a bit naive for some to think he can be a #1 option. He's going to need some help and in order for our team to be a real contender, it'll need a real 1st or 2nd all-NBA team player.

And thinking practically, our best chance of getting Harden would be having to trade for him, IF OKC decides to do so, in which we would almost certainly have to part ways with some nice trade assets and potentially our lottery pick. I don't think it's worth it. I think a lot of risk comes with that.

If he were to hit free agency, I doubt we, as a rebuilding situation, would be his first choice.

i think people are confusing Harden's acquisition as an answer to our lack of a franchise player or go to option. Harden is the consummate #2. picking him up first doesn't mean he's our long term #1 option, it just means he fills that role whilst we look for a legit #1. the way Wade carried Miami for a couple seasons in the Shaq - LeBron limbo.

given more opportunity, i think you'd be surprised to see how much of a horse Harden can be. some of the ways he can score are just so hard to stop. he's the 7th best player at converting ISO situations. he's the 9th best player converting off P&R's. he's the BEST player in the league at converting hand off situations, AND scoring when coming off screens. those are 3 basic plays/elements, right there, that are staples to any offense and he's already shown to be a dominant force in those areas - and you just KNOW that Hennigan is going to appreciate efficiency like that.

how confident are you that you can find a player in the draft that will be the best in the league at any area? we've got a guy, right here, who's already shown that and he's just 22.

[TheLastDon]

Do we actually have a legitimate shot at landing James Harden?

NO... RFA in 2013 and Harden will recieve 4yr/$58 Max deal and OKC can match... NO James Harden will not be a member of rebuilding Magic Squad

[ChildishGambino]

Do we actually have a legitimate shot at landing James Harden?

NO... RFA in 2013 and Harden will recieve 4yr/$58 Max deal and OKC can match... NO James Harden will not be a member of rebuilding Magic Squad

so you know for sure that they will match? don't say you do it's a rhetorical question....lot's of things to consider especially with the CBA in year 2 when more "restrictions" set in....but on the other hand you're right they can match....

[TDJacksonville]

Unless there is a clear concensus superstar, they are all a roll of the dice. Look at Oden, everyone and I mean everyone said he was the next franchise center and Portland would be able to build around him for years to come...instead, he's thinking about becoming a teacher or a farmer or something if he can't get his health back into a state he can play.

is odens fault hes always hurt. nope.

He was hurt in college. He's been a frail player so far. That's not his fault, his injuries have been attributed to bad luck. Not lack of conditioning.

sure it takes luck to build like the way i want but it will be Much better and cost efficient. Harden will get matched and wouldnt be much of an upgrade anyways. we need to build the team from the Ground up and we havent hit ground zero yet.

people gotta learn to be Patient when rebuilding. Was Rome Built in 1 day? the answer is no and it took many days to build rome.

So you would rather rely on luck than known quantities? That's a poor way to approach business.

Presumably when you say Harden isn't much of an upgrade, you mean compared to Afflalo? I dont agree there. And it's got nothing to do with being patient when rebuilding, it's about making informed decisions rather than hoping for lucky guesses and bounces of ping pong balls. Adding proven talent rather than just hoping for a good draft pick is good business and good strategy.

And that isn't to say you ignore the draft, but it is to say you don't assume you'll get lucky and pick the next Dirk with your picks. The draft is risky no matter who is picking. Yes you can mitigate the risk to an extent but there is still elements of risk and luck.

Signing a known quantity is inherently less risky.

spending Max Money on Robin when u dont got Batman is pretty stupid. harden isnt much of an upgrade over affalo. Affalo plays better defense and can be a Solid Starter while Harden is Manu which comes off the bench

Hennigan knows how to evaluate Talent. he was a Scout. im sure hes going to be More focused on Drafting players that can be atleast Potential Assets over Overpaying Players in free agency.

Is Harden worth Max Money. IMO he isnt and anyways hes More Likely to be a Sun than a Magic player with his Family there anyway so theres no Need to even have a Discussion about a Player who Isnt going to be a Magic Player for a Long time if at all.

[Def Swami]

And what I'm saying is that Harden is not Kobe or Wade. He's not a guy to lead a team deep into the playoffs. Good compliment, but not a horse. And since we don't see many of those available in free agency, I say drafting one is our best shot. I don't mind getting Harden and he's actually one of my favorite players in the league. But I do think it's a bit naive for some to think he can be a #1 option. He's going to need some help and in order for our team to be a real contender, it'll need a real 1st or 2nd all-NBA team player.

And thinking practically, our best chance of getting Harden would be having to trade for him, IF OKC decides to do so, in which we would almost certainly have to part ways with some nice trade assets and potentially our lottery pick. I don't think it's worth it. I think a lot of risk comes with that.

If he were to hit free agency, I doubt we, as a rebuilding situation, would be his first choice.

i think people are confusing Harden's acquisition as an answer to our lack of a franchise player or go to option. Harden is the consummate #2. picking him up first doesn't mean he's our long term #1 option, it just means he fills that role whilst we look for a legit #1. the way Wade carried Miami for a couple seasons in the Shaq - LeBron limbo.

given more opportunity, i think you'd be surprised to see how much of a horse Harden can be. some of the ways he can score are just so hard to stop. he's the 7th best player at converting ISO situations. he's the 9th best player converting off P&R's. he's the BEST player in the league at converting hand off situations, AND scoring when coming off screens. those are 3 basic plays/elements, right there, that are staples to any offense and he's already shown to be a dominant force in those areas - and you just KNOW that Hennigan is going to appreciate efficiency like that.

how confident are you that you can find a player in the draft that will be the best in the league at any area? we've got a guy, right here, who's already shown that and he's just 22.

More confident than we can find one in free agency or via trade. And again, I like Harden and what he brings to a team as a #2 or complimentary player. I agree with your assessment of his game. But I'm still concerned that we'd possibly have to give up a lot to get him in a trade, depleting our assets and opportunities to add other players around him. And I don't see why Harden would pick us as a free agent.

But I'll bite. Tell me how we'd acquire Harden and then once we do, how would you build around Harden. Feel free, anyone, to jump in. I'm having a hard time of envisioning this.

[ChildishGambino]

Unless there is a clear concensus superstar, they are all a roll of the dice. Look at Oden, everyone and I mean everyone said he was the next franchise center and Portland would be able to build around him for years to come...instead, he's thinking about becoming a teacher or a farmer or something if he can't get his health back into a state he can play.
is odens fault hes always hurt. nope.

He was hurt in college. He's been a frail player so far. That's not his fault, his injuries have been attributed to bad luck. Not lack of conditioning.


sure it takes luck to build like the way i want but it will be Much better and cost efficient. Harden will get matched and wouldnt be much of an upgrade anyways. we need to build the team from the Ground up and we havent hit ground zero yet.

people gotta learn to be Patient when rebuilding. Was Rome Built in 1 day? the answer is no and it took many days to build rome.

So you would rather rely on luck than known quantities? That's a poor way to approach business.

Presumably when you say Harden isn't much of an upgrade, you mean compared to Afflalo? I dont agree there. And it's got nothing to do with being patient when rebuilding, it's about making informed decisions rather than hoping for lucky guesses and bounces of ping pong balls. Adding proven talent rather than just hoping for a good draft pick is good business and good strategy.

And that isn't to say you ignore the draft, but it is to say you don't assume you'll get lucky and pick the next Dirk with your picks. The draft is risky no matter who is picking. Yes you can mitigate the risk to an extent but there is still elements of risk and luck.

Signing a known quantity is inherently less risky. spending Max Money on Robin when u dont got Batman is pretty stupid. harden isnt much of an upgrade over affalo. Affalo plays better defense and can be a Solid Starter while Harden is Manu which comes off the bench

Hennigan knows how to evaluate Talent. he was a Scout. im sure hes going to be More focused on Drafting players that can be atleast Potential Assets over Overpaying Players in free agency.

Is Harden worth Max Money. IMO he isnt and anyways hes More Likely to be a Sun than a Magic player with his Family there anyway so theres no Need to even have a Discussion about a Player who Isnt going to be a Magic Player for a Long time if at all.

there is some fallacy here...but i'm not smart enough to know what it is....