#10 Highest Peak of All Time (LeBron '09)

[Doctor MJ]

Tim Duncan got enshrined with the last vote, so we'll get going with the next one.

Noteworthy: LeBron actually got more votes than Duncan in the last thread. I'm going to open up some discussion on the general stuff in the project thread.

In this thread though, LeBron folks (of which I"m one) need to talk this stuff out.

[colts18]

So this is like the 7th straight thread where LeBron finished in 2nd place. I'll repost my LeBron rationale:

LeBron led the team in pts, reb, ast, blk, and stl. He led a mediocre team to 66 wins. From 08-10, the Cavs were 1-13 in games LeBron missed (+13.7 difference). LeBron had a ridiculous +21.83 in plus/minus which led the NBA. He was +13 on offense and -8 on defense. The Cavs were +14.9 with LeBron on the court which is better than what the 96 Bulls did (+13.4). When LeBron was off the court, they were -7 which is on the level of last year's Cavs and Nets. On offense, the Cavs were 115.1 O rating with LeBron on the court which is around what the 96 Bulls and 10 Suns did. When LeBron was off the court, they were 101 O rating which would have been the worst in the NBA that season (Clippers were the worst at 102.3). They went from historical offense with LeBron to worst offense in league without. On defense, the Cavs were 100.2 with LeBron and 108.31 without. The 100.2 is -8.1 from the league average. That -8.1 is so good that it is better than the 04 Pistons (-7.5). So they went from all-time defense with LeBron on the court, to League average without. The Cavs 8.68 SRS was tied for 7th best ever in the 3 point era ahead of teams like the 87 Lakers, 91 Bulls, 07 Spurs, and 00 Lakers.

From 08-10, LeBron missed 14 games. Here are the results:
With: .737 win% +5.81 MOV
Without: 1-13 (.071 win%) (-7.68 MOV
Difference: .666 win%, +13.67 MOV

Biggest SRS dropoff in history:
1. 99 Bulls -15.82 (MJ/Pippen/Rodman)
2. 11 cavs -15.05 (LeBron)
3. 97 Spurs -13.91 (Drob injured)
4. 91 Nuggets -11.88 (English)
5. 83 Rockets -10.73 (Moses)


Next up, I'll talk about LeBron's clutch season. Arguably one of the clutchest ever. Per 48 minutes he averaged 56-14-13, .693 TS%. He was 2nd in scoring and 1st in assists during the clutch. The Cavs outscored opponents by 45 points per 48 minutes with LeBron on the court in the clutch .


Now onto the playoffs. In fact the Cavs played almost the exact same in the playoffs as they did in the regular season. They had a 112 O rating and 102 D rating in both the regular season and postseason. Their SRS improved from 8.68 to 11.67 in the playoffs. LeBron averaged 35-9-7, .618 TS%, 8.7 TOV%. His PER and WS/48 are easily the best in playoff history. The crazy part is that not one of LeBron's teammates had a PER better than 15 in the playoffs which is the league average. LeBron had a 128 O rating and 100 D rating. MJ never beat 128 O rating or 100 D rating in any of his playoff seasons

In the first two rounds, LeBron averaged 33-9-7, .644 TS%, 38.0% usage% and an insane 6.0 TOV%. That TOV% is so insane that if he did that in the regular season, it would be #2 overall in the league, just 0.1% behind the leader (Dequan Cook). That led to him having a 139 O rating and 90 D rating. To put that into perspective, the all-time #1 O rating is 92 Horace Grant at 132, LeBron would have smashed that. That 90 D rating would have led the league in 2009 ahead of the #1 guy (Howard) who had a 94.6 D rating. This might have been the best two round stretch in NBA history. The Cavs won their games by 16.75 PPG with the closest game being a 10 point win. The Cavs had a 115.95 O rating (similar to 92 Bulls) and a 95.48 D rating (04 Pistons).

Against Orlando, LeBron averaged 39-8-8, .591 TS% against the team with the #1 ranked defense in the league. More amazing, LeBron only had a 11.3 TOV% (38.3 USG%) in that series. Some blame the loss on LeBron being ball dominant but the Cavs had a 112.60 O rating in the series against a team that had a 101.9 D rating in the regular season. That makes the offense +10.70. That is on the level of the 80's Lakers and 00s Suns. For some reason, LeBron gets hate on for his defense in this series but the guys he was guarding (Turkoglu and Alston) didn't do much. Turk averaged 17.2 PPG on 39.0 FG% and Alston 12.5 PPG on 37 FG%. LeBron's sidekicks failed him though. Mo Williams did average 18.3 PPG but on 37 FG%. LeBron only had 3 teammates average 10+ PPG and those teammates did it on .505 TS%. This series was completely on his teammates failing offensively and not being able to guard Lewis and Howard.

The difference between 09 LeBron's WS/48 and 91 MJ's playoff WS/48 is bigger than the difference between 91 MJ and 97 Steve Smith.


Of course I have to mention LeBron's elite defense too. As mentioned above, LeBron shut down Turkoglu and Alston in the Orlando series. In the 1st round, Tayshaun Prince averaged 3.8 PPG and a .278 TS% despite playing 32 MPG. LeBron completely shut him down. In the next round, Joe Johnson averaged 15 PPG on .452 TS%. In the regular season, Carmelo averaged 15.5 PPG on .525 TS% vs. Cleveland. Pierce averaged 20.3 PPG on .490 TS%. Durant averaged 19.5 PPG on .528 TS%. Rudy Gay averaged 11.5 PPG on .350 TS%. Caron Butler who averaged 20.8 PPG on .552 TS% in the regular season dropped down to 15 PPG on .458 TS% vs. Cleveland.

He led the Cavs that season in steals and blocks that season. LeBron was 3rd in the league in D rating and 2nd in the league in Defensive win shares (behind Howard). With LeBron on the court, the defense had a 100.2 D rating which was -8.1 relative to league average. By comparison that is better than the 04 Pistons (-7.5) and 99 Spurs. The Cavs were 8.12 points/100 better with LeBron on the court on defense than without. That was the 2nd best total in the league behind Joel Przybilla. 82games had opponents had a PER vs. LeBron at 10.4 (which is the level of Fredette, Joel Anthony, and Johan petro). According to 82games, his opposing SF had 12.8 pts/36 on .525 TS% and PF had 13.3 pts/36 on .484 TS% when LeBron played PF. He had a +2.8 Defensive RAPM which was 2nd among qualifying perimeter players behind Ron Artest.

Some defensive stats for his position:
17.3 pts/game allowed (1st in league)
41.2 FG% allowed (1st)
15.1 FGA allowed (2nd fewest)
16.6 Efficiency allowed (1st)
1.3 Offensive rebounds allowed (3rd)

Vote LeBron 09

[colts18]

This is a reply to Drza's post in the last thread. Didn't want to post it there because it's more relevant in this thread now that KG is in the picture

These are both great responses, and literally what I expected/hoped to see in response to what I had written because it lets me further clarify what I meant before. Notice, my initial post on this subject came in response to Bastillon's comment about '12 LeBron "stepping up in the face of adversity". This also dovetails with the themes of some of my previous posts in the threads about how bad the '04 Wolves were once Cassell started hobbling. The level that KG was having to "step it up to", when you factor in both teammate support and opponent, was higher than what LeBron '09 or Duncan '03 had to face.

We can play this same game for Dirk 2011.

a) Supporting cast: None of the '09 Cavs, the '03 Spurs, nor the '04 Wolves (with healthy Cassell) were overly talented. But what all of them had was enough support for the team to build a strong identity around the mega star. Now, that identity (and the team outlook) would be crap if the mega star wasn't on the court to pull it, but WITH the mega star the whole could be stronger than the parts.

The '09 Cavs' support was built around having two centers on the floor at all times (3 man rotation, 2 of which were strong defenders) and a everyone else shooters, which (coupled with LeBron's awesome talents) let them have a strong inside-out defensive/rebounding team as well as a floor-spreaded offensive squad that was strong as long as the treys were falling.

The '03 Spurs support was built around having excellent defensive players from 2 - 5 in a strong defensive system, which was keyed of course by Duncan's defensive strengths. Then on offense, they ran the kind of committee-around-Duncan approach that ElGee did a good job of detailing in a recent post.

The '04 Wolves support was essentially built around a scoring guard's ability to play offense off of Garnett in a 2-man game, and with Spree and Hassell no longer getting completely torched on the perimeter (the way that Wally and Peeler used to) it allowed KG's help defense to make the defense formidable as well. (I say "scoring guard" above because that offense worked and was strong whether that scoring guard was '02 Billups, '03 Hudson, '04 Cassell, or '05 Hudson/Cassell...but with '04 Cassell able to do more of the team set-up as well as being the most consistent scorer of that group as well, his 2-man game with KG made for frighteningly consistent offense even on a team with very little other offensive talent.

While these support systems couldn't have made it out of the lottery on their own, they were each strong enough to a) build something special around the mega star and b) allow that mega star to specialize a bit. LeBron was able to just be a strong cog on the defense, and he had others to help on the boards and knock down the 3s to keep the floor stretched..."all" he had to do was focus on generating offense for himself and his shooters, and just do a good job on defense. Similarly, Duncan was able to lead the dominant defense (instead of BEING the defense), which was good enough to keep them in any game, and let him then focus more on offense. And with Cassell's help Garnett was able to lead the offense (instead of being the offense), which let him focus more on his defense (not coincidence this was his peak defensive season in the Flip Saunders era).

For '09 LeBron and '03 Duncan, the scenario described above was also true in the postseason. But for Garnett, with Cassell limping and then eventually out, the cast was no longer strong enough in any area to let him specialize in any way. He had to BE the offense AND also BE the defense, for his team to have any chance against strong competition. On a level that '09 LeBron and '03 Duncan never had to...they never had to stop specializing and go into scramble mode, the way that '04 KG had to.

It's the same for Dirk. He had to singlehandedly carry the offense to absurd levels. Without him, the Mavs offense was nothing. Dirk's defense was pretty big too. In playoffs, Aldrige averaged 16.8 PPG, 5.7 Reb, .490 TS% when Dirk was on the court. Gasol averaged 10.6 PPG, 8.5 Reb, .446 TS% with Dirk on the court. He didn't have KG's defensive impact, but his defensive impact was comparable to KG's offense.


But Dirk's supporting cast was on the same level as KG's. Dirk had noone anywhere near Cassell's level. Cassell was a 2nd team All-NBA who was underrated throughout his career. Dirk had no all-stars or anything close. Here is what Dirk's cast did in the games he missed:

2-7 record (lost to teams like Raptors, Bucks, and Pacers)
-5.9 MOV (would be between the Kings and Nets for a full season.
-5.82 off court without Dirk (-7.17 in the playoffs)
103.6 (-3.7) O rating, 110.2 (+2.9) D rating (same as Wizards) in the games Dirk missed
110.5 (+3.2) O rating, 104.4 (-2.9) D rating in the games Dirk played


Just look at the numbers i posted before on how Dirk's cast declined significantly without him on the court. That happened in the games he missed as the offense was horrible without Dirk (O rating similar to the Kings and Bobcats). The defense sucked too as Dirk made almost a 6 point impact on Defense. Dirk had 8 guys on his team in the playoffs who played significant minutes. 5 of them (Stevenson, Kidd, Barea, Haywood, Peja) are horrible players. Terry and Chandler are nice role players. Marion is decent but isn't anywhere near his Phoenix levels. He was exposed after he left Nash. Those 3 guys are the only ones who play significant minutes on contender.

b) The opponents. The other aspect is the opponent. And this is a key...neither the 2003 Spurs nor the 2009 Cavs ever faced a situation where the opponent was lopsidedly more talented. I mentioned this in a previous post, but it doesn't even matter so much whether the opponent's talent is mainly offense or mainly defense, just that the opponent is clearly (much) better. The '09 Cavs faced 2 easy opponents, and the a Magic team that was not more talented than them. Again, this is important. The talent around Howard was roughly equivalent to the talent around LeBron, and both teams were somewhat gimmick squads around their star (Cavs with 2 starting centers and shooters, Magic with all shooters around the dominant big). So it's not that the Magic were just better than the Cavs...it's just that their gimmick made the Cavs' gimmick ineffective.

Similarly, the '03 Spurs never faced an opponent that clearly outgunned them. The Lakers had the worst year of the Shaq/Kobe prime era, and Kobe was playing hurt. The Mavs were playing them to a standstill before Dirk got hurt, and afterwards the Spurs had the clear advantage. And the Nets just weren't on the level of the top teams in the league...the East was just weak.

Garnett's Wolves, on the other hand, were facing the Shaq/Kobe/old Malone/old Payton Lakers and the Webber/Peja/Bibby/Miller Kings. Teams (especially the Lakers) that likely would have been more talented than even a Wolves squad at full strength, but that dramatically outgunned KG with limping (or absent) Cassell.

This favors Dirk significantly. Here are the rankings from BBR which is O rating and D rating adjusted for HCA and opponents http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9217

Post-deadline, The Thunder were the #3 in the league, Lakers #4, and Blazers #9.

Blazers: The Blazers were a 5.35 SRS team with Gerald Wallace. They improved to 7.76 SRS in the 14 games he started (beat the Spurs x2, Mavs x2, Lakers, Grizzlies, and Thunder). They also significantly out talented the Mavs. Here is the comparison between the two teams minus their best player:

Blazers: Wallace, Miller, Camby, Matthews, Roy, Batum, and Fernandez. That is a significant talent gap. Gerald Wallace would be the best player on the Mavs. Everyone one of those guys is solid.

Lakers: In the 2nd half of the year+1st round, the Lakers had a 7.71 SRS in the games Bynum played.

Lakers: Gasol, Bynum, Odom, MWP, Fisher, Barnes, Blake, Brown

Another significant talent gap. Gasol, Bynum and Odom would have been the best players on the Mavs (ignoring Odom's horrific Mavs stint). This talent gap is around the same level as the 04 Lakers vs. 04 Wolves except the Mavs swept the Lakers without HCA while the TWolves lost with HCA in 6 games. I don't think the talent was big enough to overcome the 6 game gap in outcome.

Thunder: 7.22 SRS in the games Perkins played+first 2 rounds. Look at the linkI posted up earlier. The Thunder were a top 3-5 team post deadline. This is another team with a big gap in talent:

Thunder: Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka, Perkins, Collison, Thabo, Maynor

Westbrook is easily much better than any of the players Dirk played with. Harden would be right up there with Dirk's 2nd best player. Harden averaged 15-6-4, 126 O rating, .634 TS%, per 36 minutes in the playoffs. Terry was 19-4-2, 119 O rating, .604 TS% in the playoffs so both of those guys were not far off. And Terry was Dirk's 2nd best player in the playoffs. It's a very close comparison if you take into account what Terry was doing with Dirk off the court (.551 TS%). Ibaka, Perkins, and Collison are better than the non-Chandler/Marion/Terry players. This Thunder team was better than the 04 Kings.

Heat: This is self-explanatory. One of the biggest upsets in finals history based on talent. The Heat entered the finals with a 27-6 record and 9.25 SRS in their past 33 games as they got healthy (Miller and Haslem being healthy). Overall for the whole season, the Heat had a 7.82 SRS in the games that the Big 3 played. The Big 3 over the past 2 years were a +14.4 team when they were on the court together and in the finals they played about 40 MPG. The Heat got rid of some of their bad players and played Chalmers, Miller, Haslem, and Anthony more. This was an elite team that beat just came off of beating the Bulls without HCA in 5 games. The Bulls with their starters healthy were a +8.14 SRS team and the Heat easily beat them.

Heat: Wade, Bosh, Chalmers, Haslem, Miller, Anthony, Bibby

The only real horrible player there is Bibby but his minutes were reduced in the finals. Wade was another level compared to Dirk's players. Wade was an MVP caliber player. Bosh was an all-star who was also better than Dirk's cast. Chalmers, Haslem, and Miller would have fit well with Dirk's role players. If KG lost this series, his fans would make so many excuses saying he couldn't be expected to beat LeBron/Wade and Bosh at the same time (see how a loss to a weaker Shaq/Kobe duo was excused). Dirk did it himself (had a Plus/minus of +40 in the finals). And Dirk also did it without HCA advantage on his side. You can't tell me the gap in talent between 04 Wolves and Lakers is that much bigger than the gap between 11 Mavs and Heat to explain the huge difference in outcomes.

Dirk beat 6 out of the 9 non-Dirk players in the All-NBA first and 2nd teams. And Dirk beat 3 teams that each had 2 1st/2nd team All-NBA players. The Heat also added an All-star in Bosh who wasn't an All-NBA player. Aldridge also made 3rd team all-NBA and Dirk outplayed him H2H. So that's 7 All-NBA players and 8 All-stars (would have been 9 if Bynum was healthy all year). Yet Dirk did this with no all-stars on his side. Dirk hasn't had an All-star player by his side since 2007 and hasn't had an All-NBA player since 2003 yet he had plenty of success in that span. KG had a player who was one of the tops in +/- stats and was 2nd team all-NBA. Dirk didn't have a player anywhere close to 2nd team all-NBA.

Conclusion: Put (a) and (b) together, and Garnett is in a situation where he a) doesn't have the team anymore that would let him maximize his own production, but b) requires MORE than his previous MVP-level of production to even have a shot at a win. This isn't a comparable situation to '09 LeBron or '03 Duncan, so a straight box score-for-box score comparison won't give you an accurate sense of what was going on.

I reiterate. KG was a monster at his peak.

Conclusion: Dirk was a monster at his peak. Bird like offense with pretty good defense. Dirk was in a situation that required him to carry a mediocre team past 7 different All-NBA players and Dirk had to do it every game to make up for his inferior team.

[colts18]

I really like LeBron 09 but I might lean towards Dirk's 2011 season. Here is what i posted before on how Dirk affected the Mavs offense. Every significant player other than Chandler had their efficiency drop through the roof without Dirk:

Here is what Dirk did for his teammates in his peak 2011 season (stats per 36 minutes):

Kidd:

Dirk on Court: 8.7 pts, .542 TS%, 9.3 AST, +6.8 on court plus/minus

Dirk off court: 8.3 pts, .442 TS%, 8.2 AST , -4.6

Marion:

On: 15 pts, .585 TS%, +6.2

off: 17 pts, .522 TS%, -6.8

Barea:

On: 16.4 pts, .538 TS%, +8.4

off: 16.8 pts, .528 TS%, -5.7

Terry:

on: 18.1 pts, .576 TS%, +11.8

off: 18.2 pts, .509 TS%, -5.6

Chandler

on: 12.7 pts, .680 TS%, +8.3

off: 13.8 pts, .733 TS%, -1.3

Stevenson:

on: 11.8 pts, .568 TS%, +5.5

off: 12.7 pts, .521 TS%, -5.3

Haywood:

on: 8.1 pts, .545 TS%, +3.1

off: 9.4 pts, .515 TS%, -5.3


Even low minute players like Peja (.612 TS% with .497 TS% without) and Caron (.560 TS% with .480 TS% without) exhibited the same effect. Chandler was the only one who wasn’t affected by Dirk and he not so coincidentally had the best TS% season in history in New York.

On average these 9 players had a .578 TS% with Dirk on the court and .527 TS% without him. That's a 5.1 TS% dropoff. That's about the same as the gap between Chris Paul and Kendrick Perkins in TS% difference. For the big minute players, they averaged +7.16 when they played with Dirk on the court. When Dirk was off, they were -4.94 when they didn't play with Dirk. Every single one of them was a negative with Dirk off the court and 6 out of those 7 players were at least -4.50 or worse.

[ardee]

Doc, I'm pretty sure that LeBron '12 voters changed their vote to '09, and it was tied at 6-6.

[therealbig3]

Vote: 09 LeBron

[therealbig3]

Doc, I'm pretty sure that LeBron '12 voters changed their vote to '09, and it was tied at 6-6.

Was it done on time though?

[Doctor MJ]

Doc, I'm pretty sure that LeBron '12 voters changed their vote to '09, and it was tied at 6-6.

Hmm. Going back and checking.

EDIT: I checked. We're still on. One vote was changed in time, but it was still:

Duncan '03 - 6
LeBron '09 - 5
LeBron -12 - 2

Let me say some things in bold here just to try to get everyone's attention. If I seem irritated please know I'm not mad at individuals, but I'm getting frustrated that I keep having to explain things. Clearly my methods simply aren't ideal for communicating, but I don't know what else to do:


Tallying up these votes is a huge pain in the ass. Partly just because there's a lot of discussion - which is a good thing. But partly it's because people just aren't following rules, and maybe the rules themselves can't be improved a bit so:

1) When you vote, you vote by saying the following at the top of your post in just this format:

Vote: Adam Morrison '13

2) If you switch your vote, you make a very clear edit of that post.

In addition, I'll ask you to do what some have already done despite me not telling them to: At the time you change your actual voting post, make a NEW post just saying the change you made. Do not use the Vote format in the new post. Just make it clear, so it's easier to know about. I have to admit, in this last thread I was expecting to see those updates despite the fact I never told you to do that. My fault there fellas.

3) While you can switch your vote at any time before the deadline, the deadline is real and I'm doing zero mind-reading after the fact. There is no "X but Y if Y can win", and there's definitely no "I'm switching to Y for strategy purposes, but switch it back if X finishes higher".

I allow voting strategy because I can't stop it, but stuff like this would make my job far harder if I allowed it, and in the process would make the voters task that much more complicated. There's no reason these negatives need to be dealt with.

~Doc

[lorak]

vote: LJ '09

[Doctor MJ]

Vote: LeBron '09

C'mon baby, papa needs a new Cadillac...

[ardee]

Vote: LeBron James 2009

I hope we get a majority within a day so we can just move on to say the Garnetts and Ervings and Waltons....

[ardee]

Conclusion: Dirk was a monster at his peak. Bird like offense with pretty good defense. Dirk was in a situation that required him to carry a mediocre team past 7 different All-NBA players and Dirk had to do it every game to make up for his inferior team.

Stop with the revisionist history, seriously. This happened a little over a year ago. The Mavs may not have had any other All Stars but they were a LOADED team. Two legitimate starters at practically every position. What about the Finals? Dirk went cold (he made a few key shots but don't act as if he was anywhere near his OKC-LAL level), and Terry, Barea, Kidd, etc. stepped up spectacularly. It was a GREAT supporting cast. Absolutely perfect for him.

[C-izMe]

I'm voting Lebron 09.


Surprised he couldn't make the top ten.

[JordansBulls]

Between these guys for me

--------- RS PER, WS48, --------- PER, WS48 playoffs
Moses Malone 1983: 25.1, 0.248 -----25.7, 0.260 (13 playoff games, title)
Lebron James 2012:30.7, 0.298-------30.3, 0.284 (23 playoff games, title)
Dwyane Wade 2006: 27.6, 0.239-------26.9, 0.240 (23 playoff games, title)
Julius Erving 1976: 28.7, 0.262-----32.0, 0.321 (13 playoff games, title) - ABA


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/ ... ormances-3


2003 DUNCAN'S STATS
Points per game: 24.2
Boards per game: 17.0
Assists per game: 5.3
PER: 32.0



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/ ... ormances-1

2006 WADE'S STATS
Points per game: 34.7
Boards per game: 7.8
Steals per game: 2.7
PER: 33.8


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2 ... nces-11-20

MOSES MALONE FINALS STATS
Points per game: 25.8
Boards per game: 18.0
Blocks per game: 1.5
PER: 26.0

VOTE: Lebron James 2012. Was on a mission all season long and played both ends of the floor and even guarded star players as well.

[ThaRegul8r]

I'm voting Lebron 09.


Surprised he couldn't make the top ten.

Psst.

This is voting for the 10th highest peak of all time.

Meaning the top ten hasn't been set yet.

Which makes it odd that you would say it's surprising a player couldn't make the top ten when voting for the top ten is still ongoing. If this were the "#11 Highest Peak of All Time" thread, then the comment would be valid.

[bastillon]

Conclusion: Dirk was a monster at his peak. Bird like offense with pretty good defense. Dirk was in a situation that required him to carry a mediocre team past 7 different All-NBA players and Dirk had to do it every game to make up for his inferior team.

Stop with the revisionist history, seriously. This happened a little over a year ago. The Mavs may not have had any other All Stars but they were a LOADED team. Two legitimate starters at practically every position. What about the Finals? Dirk went cold (he made a few key shots but don't act as if he was anywhere near his OKC-LAL level), and Terry, Barea, Kidd, etc. stepped up spectacularly. It was a GREAT supporting cast. Absolutely perfect for him.

lmao @ Mavs being a loaded team while winning 2-7 without Dirk and struggling ALL DECADE without Dirk on the floor. this is just a horrible statement to make. if by "stepping up" you mean "hitting open shots and moving the ball with skip pass while entire defense collapsed miserably trying to stop Dirk from getting his shot off" then yeah, they really stepped up. reminds me of Shaq fans trying to tell me how Houston's supporting cast was "stepping up" not that Shaq was thoroughly outplayed during key stretches of those finals, when the game was being decided (4th + OT of G1, 1st half of G2, 4th of G4). nice narrative, but that's what was happening. Dirk was going nuts so teams were desperate to stop him. when OKC tried defending him 1 on 1 he put up a 48 pt game on like 90% TS. Dirk's cast was alright but it was far from being loaded. Miami is loaded. Lakers 2013 are gonna be loaded. Dallas 2011 was most certainly NOT loaded.

[Rapcity_11]

When are people going to stop evaluating supporting casts on the sole basis of how they are without the star?

How they fit/play with the star is more important.

[bastillon]

When are people going to stop evaluating supporting casts on the sole basis of how they are without the star?

How they fit/play with the star is more important.

that's a fair approach. but still - LOADED ? I'd expect loaded supporting cast to fit well with the superstar but also play well without him. TD 03 had a very good supporting cast in terms of fit. but they were pretty poor without him. would you say they were loaded ?

[MisterWestside]

When are people going to stop evaluating supporting casts on the sole basis of how they are without the star?

You nailed it, sir. Seems like this point is forgotten around here at times.

[Rapcity_11]

When are people going to stop evaluating supporting casts on the sole basis of how they are without the star?

How they fit/play with the star is more important.

that's a fair approach. but still - LOADED ? I'd expect loaded supporting cast to fit well with the superstar but also play well without him. TD 03 had a very good supporting cast in terms of fit. but they were pretty poor without him. would you say they were loaded ?

Never said I agreed with "loaded"

I just think a lot people approach the issue of supporting casts in a very simplistic way.