Advanced Stats Comparison: Why is Kobe so "mediocre"?

[Mr Grant Hill]

See, I'm no stats nerd who understands advanced stats completely - tho I'm using them regularly *shame on me*.

I really don't like Kobe, but I know what he achieved and all, and then I'm looking up his career stats - 25/5/5 on 55 TS%. That's great stuff, really. But what about his advanced stats in total? Why are they partially so mediocre? What's that all about?

He's ranked 21st in career PER (in terms of "career" I didn't include players like LeBron that are "only" 9 seasons in the league, I chose players with around 900+ RS games), but okay still a top20 player in these categories.


Fast forward: WS/48
.1840 is 19th (again in terms of career I didn't include players that are not that long in the league), but what about his career high of .224? Or his peak average of .215?


And then: ORtg minus DRtg
That's really killing me. Why is he so "mediocre"?


What's that all about? According to advanced stats he's nowhere near a top10 player, neither in career, peak or prime. Some categories are just disappointing. So what does it mean? Magic for example isn't that great in PER (especially career high), I guess because assists are not rated that highly in PER, but his ORtg-DRtg is immense. But Kobe doesn't stand out in any category.
And you have to remember that the category "best individudal season" doesn't mean that those players didn't have similar seasons.
Kobe's highest PER ranks 50th all-time.
And Kobe's highest WS/48 ranks 195th all-time.
In terms of ORtg-DRtg his career high is +12. Jordan's or Robinson's career high is +24.

What's this about?

[GetItDone]

Kobe fans will tell you advanced stats mean nothing, however, when they benefit Kobe, they suddenly do have merit.

[An Unbiased Fan]

The problem is that "advanced" stats are nothing more than composite stats created by individuals. Both PER & WS are based on boxscore formulas, and really don't reflect anything other than production numbers.

And at the end of the day, that's the problem. Kobe's role was never to rack up big boxscore numbers. In 2006-07, Phil asked him to up his scoring, but for the most part, Kobe's teams tried to maintain floor balance. Even when he had Kwame/Mihm, he tried to use what they had downlow. This style doesn't lead to gaudy rpg, apg numbers. Minny ran a lot through KG in 2004, so his boxscore numbers are stacked, but for me, that doesn't make him a better player, it just tells me that his team's system ran more through him.

I mean look at Tmac/CP3 are both in the Top 8 all-time for PER seasons, what does that tell you? 2003 ORL and 08' NO utilized them more, is what I get out of it.

Ask yourself....why is one of the greatest defenders (Russell) so "mediocre"? Why is one of the greatest offensive players (Nash) so mediocre? is CP3 better than Duncan?

The Top 10 all-time according to PER is....

1) MJ
2) Lebron
3) Shaq
4) DRob
5) Wilt
6) Wade
7) CP3
8) Petit
9) Duncan
10) Johnston

The Top 10 according to WS/48 is.....

1) MJ
2) DRob
3) Wilt
4) Johnston
5) CP3
6) Lebron
7) KAJ
8) Magic
9) Barkley
10) Manu

^
Does that look accurate to you? or could it be that these composite stats are a bit flawed?

[Josephpaul]

Part of the problem is how he was used in the triangle and his usage rates. Who going help with usage rate in 06? Smush Parker ? Derek Fisher? He's never had a decent point guard until now.

[SilkStream]

Maybe because he didn't have near the actual value some his die hard fans think he had?
His career is insanely overrated as was he himself as a player.

Most overrated player of All-Time... easily.

He was a sidekick for his first 3 titles and he was only an inefficient low to mid level All-Star in 00 and 02.
In 03 and 04 he was either injured (03) or overweight and playing poorly/selfishly (04) and injured again (05).

His 06-09 Prime was great but far from transcendent in an All-Time sense and his impact in 2011 and onwards has been far from that of a Super-Star.

Box score stats can be empty often don't accurately display impact.
This last season he was barely a positive/plus for his team.
He put up nice ppg but with terrible ball dominance that frequently led to him alienating his teammates on offense and keeping them from staying productive on that end.
Plus his own inefficiency/consistency.

His "special fans" will ignore this and just say "look at the pretty ppg" and he is still MVP etc... and even the media seems to buy into that way of thinking nowadays... its pretty sad.

Advanced stats and actual performances are why Kobe will never be anything more then a borderline Top 10 player.
This stuff below... is what they don't want you to see.

**************************************************

Playoff PER

A's (Main Star) :
Shaq (00-02) : 29
Jordan (91-93 + 96-98) : 28.53

B's (Side-Kicks) :
Kobe (00-02) : 21
Pippen (91-93 + 96-98) : 19.5

The difference is clear and obvious.
_______________________________________________________

Comparison Between Kobe/Gasol in 2010.

Regular Season PER / WShares
Gasol : 22.9 ||| 11
Kobe : 21.9 ||| 9.4

Playoff PER / WShares
Gasol : 24 ||| 4.7
Kobe : 24.7 ||| 3.6

**************************************************

-------------------------------------------------------------

#1.
Jordan : Post Season - PER
Peak : 32
Top 5 : 30.16
Top 7 : 29.61
Top 10 : 28.89
Top 13 : 28.6

------------------------------------------------------------

#2.
Shaq : Post Season - PER
Peak : 31
Top 5 : 30
Top 7 : 29.56
Top 10 : 28.52
Top 13 : 26.55
14th to 16th Season (Final 3 Seasons) - 18.33

------------------------------------------------------------

#4.
Duncan : Post Season - PER
Peak : 28.4
Top 5 : 26.96
Top 7 : 27.49
Top 10 : 26.67
Top 13 : 25.4

------------------------------------------------------------

#???.
Hakeem : Post Season - PER
Peak : 27.7
Top 5 : 26.5
Top 7 : 27.4

------------------------------------------------------------

#14.
KG : Post Season - PER
Peak : 25.5
Top 5 : 24.2
Top 7 : 24

------------------------------------------------------------

#15.
Kobe : Post Season - PER
Peak : 26.8
Top 5 : 24
Top 7 : 23
Top 10 : 22.98
Top 13 : 21.62
_____________________________________________

@Joseph : Prime Odom... amazing ball handler and frequently averaged 4-5+ APG.
Smush was also a decent ball handler.

[Wet Js]

lulz wat

[Revv]

Eh. This is a myth. He has great advanced stats and huge +/- numbers as well.

But of course advanced stats like PER and WS don't mean much.

These are probably the same morons who think Dirk>Bird, Robinson>Hakeem, Dantley>Kobe, Stockton>Nash etc.

PERZ AND WSZ!!!

lmao.

[kasino]

I don't like PER and can't understand a winshare
but starting
RS 24.39 12th all-time/PS 23.9 11th all-time
RS 154.3 averaging 11WS per season jumps from 20th to 8th/PS 28 averaging 2.1 then 32.2 going 7th to 5th

now I don't know how WS/48 works it looks like an average, could be wrong
if it is
RS--.194 WS/48
PS--.174 WS/48

now I could be wrong how some of these things works if you know how and see an error of my ways do tell
I do know however mediocre isn't Kobe in any way you spin it

and all his best seasons come without Shaq, safe to say without him would have better personal stats/better individual awards for his younger years and less championship hardware

[Texas Chuck]

. Kobe's role was never to rack up big boxscore numbers.

Just had to quote this for awesomeness. I think Kobe guys can make a reasonable case for their guy but Skip's statement is a joke. Kobe has been all about big boxscore numbers esp since Shaq left.

[HilltopperJay]

The problem is that "advanced" stats are nothing more than composite stats created by individuals. Both PER & WS are based on boxscore formulas, and really don't reflect anything other than production numbers.

And at the end of the day, that's the problem. Kobe's role was never to rack up big boxscore numbers. In 2006-07, Phil asked him to up his scoring, but for the most part, Kobe's teams tried to maintain floor balance. Even when he had Kwame/Mihm, he tried to use what they had downlow. This style doesn't lead to gaudy rpg, apg numbers. Minny ran a lot through KG in 2004, so his boxscore numbers are stacked, but for me, that doesn't make him a better player, it just tells me that his team's system ran more through him.

Err...isn't production pretty important in basketball? You just said PER & WS reflect production numbers...most people would assume that's a good thing.

& Kobe's usage percentage is routinely among the tops in the league & higher than KG's, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. KG's team offense ran through him, but Kobe's didn't, & that's the only reason KG's advanced stats are better?

Interesting.

[SilkStream]

Eh. This is a myth. He has great advanced stats and huge +/- numbers as well.

But of course advanced stats like PER and WS don't mean much.

Robinson>Hakeem, Dantley>Kobe, Stockton>Nash etc.

It is not a myth.
Kobe's advanced stats pale in comparison to most other Top 10 All-Time players.
They aren't even in the same realm as the Jordan, Shaq and Kareem's let alone even the Duncan/Hakeem's.

BTW PER/WS does not make Robinson > Hakeem, Dantley > Kobe or Stockton > Nash.

Hakeem : Post Season - PER
Peak : 39
Top 5 : 26.9
Top 7 : 27.4
______________________________________

David Robinson : Post Season - PER
Peak : 29.1
Top 5 : 25
Top 7 : 24.1

*****************************************************

Kobe : Post Season - PER
Peak : 26.8
Top 5 : 24
Top 7 : 23
______________________________________

Adrian Dantley
Peak : 24.7
Top 5 : 20.3
Top 7 : 19.3

*****************************************************

[Revv]

Much higher usage and still more efficient than KG. And much more so in the post-season. lolz.

And Kobe's peak PER is higher than any of Duncan/Magic/Bird/Hakeem/Russ. 5 of the top 10 ever.

His ORAPM is #1 for the decade. Ahead of Nash/Wade/Dirk/Duncan etc.

Yeah, real mediocre.

[Revv]

Peak Kobe: 28+ PER(tied #1)/15+ WS/115 ORTG/56% TS/9% TOV (10th lowest in league)/5.9 ORAPM (#1 in league by far)/.244 WS48

yeah, real mediocre.

[SilkStream]

Kobe's peak PER is higher than any of Duncan/Hakeem.

Hakeem Peak Per : 39
Duncan Peak Per : 31.8

Kobe Peak PER : 26.8

[Revv]

Peak Kobe: 28+ PER(tied #1)/15+ WS/115 ORTG/56% TS/9% TOV (10th lowest in league)/5.9 ORAPM (#1 in league by far)/.244 WS48

yeah, real mediocre.

Oh yeah. And the the highest raw offensive +/- EVER at +21.

Yup. Real mediocre.

[SDChargers#1]

Cmon, he was clearly talking about regular season.

[Revv]

Kobe's peak PER is higher than any of Duncan/Hakeem.

Hakeem Peak Per : 39
Duncan Peak Per : 31.8

Kobe Peak PER : 26.8

Wut.

Kobe: 28.0
Duncan: 27.1
Hakeem: 27.3

Fail.

[SDChargers#1]

Kobe's peak PER is higher than any of Duncan/Hakeem.

Hakeem Peak Per : 39
Duncan Peak Per : 31.8

Kobe Peak PER : 26.8

Wut.

Kobe: 28.0
Duncan: 27.1
Hakeem: 27.3

Fail.

He is referencing playoffs, where Hakeem's 39 PER comes from a 4 game sample where his team lost.

[TheXFactor]

The problem is that "advanced" stats are nothing more than composite stats created by individuals. Both PER & WS are based on boxscore formulas, and really don't reflect anything other than production numbers.

And at the end of the day, that's the problem. Kobe's role was never to rack up big boxscore numbers. In 2006-07, Phil asked him to up his scoring, but for the most part, Kobe's teams tried to maintain floor balance. Even when he had Kwame/Mihm, he tried to use what they had downlow. This style doesn't lead to gaudy rpg, apg numbers. Minny ran a lot through KG in 2004, so his boxscore numbers are stacked, but for me, that doesn't make him a better player, it just tells me that his team's system ran more through him.

I mean look at Tmac/CP3 are both in the Top 8 all-time for PER seasons, what does that tell you? 2003 ORL and 08' NO utilized them more, is what I get out of it.

Ask yourself....why is one of the greatest defenders (Russell) so "mediocre"? Why is one of the greatest offensive players (Nash) so mediocre? is CP3 better than Duncan?

The Top 10 all-time according to PER is....

1) MJ
2) Lebron
3) Shaq
4) DRob
5) Wilt
6) Wade
7) CP3
8) Petit
9) Duncan
10) Johnston

The Top 10 according to WS/48 is.....

1) MJ
2) DRob
3) Wilt
4) Johnston
5) CP3
6) Lebron
7) KAJ
8) Magic
9) Barkley
10) Manu

^
Does that look accurate to you? or could it be that these composite stats are a bit flawed?

[SilkStream]

He is referencing playoffs, where Hakeem's 39 PER comes from a 4 game sample where his team lost.

Playoff Peak PER in a Title winning season.

Duncan (2003) : 28.4
Hakeem (1994) : 27.7
Kobe (2009) : 26.8